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Angel
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| Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 2:26pm | IP Logged
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I found these videos showing a sample dictation lesson with Susan Wise Bauer and her son, and I was wondering what you all thought of them. I believe the way she is doing dictation is different than the way Charlotte Mason describes doing dictation.
Dictation with Dan, pt 1
Dictation with Dan, pt 2
He's also an older child (I believe she says he's 13), so that may affect the way they are doing dictation.
As an aside, there are quite a few interesting videos on their channel: Peace Hill Press.
(I need to start packing, but it has been one of THOSE days -- not because of the packing!  -- and I am attempting to calm down.)
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Angela
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Erin
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| Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 3:25pm | IP Logged
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Angela
I watched the first and half of the second one. Her method is very different to how Spelling Wisdom (and Jen) describe. Which is how I pretty much do it ( I repeat more than they recommend, habit)
I was thinking could you imagine getting enough quiet time in our households for our older ones to have the head space to retain all that? 
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Erin
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Angel
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| Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 5:51pm | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
I was thinking could you imagine getting enough quiet time in our households for our older ones to have the head space to retain all that? |
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Actually, it took me a couple of tries to even watch it without having to turn the volume as high as it would go.
I was wondering if the differences came down to a difference in purpose. As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), the goal of Charlotte Mason dictation is primarily to teach a visual model: correct spelling, correct punctuation, etc. I believe that Susan Wise Bauer said she was trying to help her son "hold words in his head." I *think*, then, that dictation would then be less to teach mechanics than to help a kid go from thinking up what to write (a narration, say, or whatever) to actually writing it down on paper. For the kids who can tell you about what they know (say), but can't translate that knowledge (those words) to actual writing.
It's interesting to me because my ds could really use help with both areas (the visual model as well as holding words in his head for the purpose of writing them down.) I was just wondering what others thought.
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Angela
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 6:50pm | IP Logged
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Well, that's certainly not dictation as I understand it. I guess, as you say, it is for a different purpose. This seems more like a memorization exercise to me.
We do it as described at Simply CM.
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Erin
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| Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 9:48pm | IP Logged
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My thoughts were the same as Theresa's, that it was a written memorisation exercise.
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Angel
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| Posted: Aug 06 2010 at 10:14am | IP Logged
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So... if the child forgets what he is writing during dictation, do you repeat? Or do you give the child the selection on paper to look at again?
(I haven't actually ever done dictation with my kids... some of those typical LA exercises didn't go over very well when my 13 yo ds was younger, so I put them aside. Now he's more mature and some of those special needs have worked themselves out so I'm thinking about how to help him with his writing. Just for background.  )
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Angela
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Angel
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| Posted: Aug 06 2010 at 10:29am | IP Logged
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Coming back to add... in other places, Susan Wise Bauer has recommended using a tape recorder to get from spoken narration to written narration. The child speaks the narration into the tape recorder, then writes from there -- as an alternative to her method of dictation, I guess, which does seem to me, too, like a written memorization exercise.
Maybe I should go hang out on the "how do you begin narration" thread. (Our narrations tend to be somewhat more informal. I asked for written narrations from G last year and it was a bit bumpy. Then I got pregnant and he was doing quite a bit of the One Year Adventure Novel for writing, and I just let nonfiction slide.)
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Aug 06 2010 at 10:36am | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
Well, that's certainly not dictation as I understand it. I guess, as you say, it is for a different purpose. This seems more like a memorization exercise to me.
We do it as described at Simply CM. |
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Ditto.
Angela wrote:
| So... if the child forgets what he is writing during dictation, do you repeat? |
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No. I read once. They write. A big point of this is cultivating the habit of attention. I, however, do not read the entire dictation at once. My oldest daughter is writing paragraphs, sometimes two, as her dictations. I will read one sentence aloud at a time, offering natural pauses (not exaggerated pauses) for commas and other punctuation. Sometimes sentences are VERY long...in that case I let her know the day before she writes that I'll be dictating sections of the sentence at a time so that she can be attentive to the natural breaks in the sentence. Once she's done writing her dictation the next day, I ask her to re-read her work...checking for excess use of commas, and making sure that she hasn't added in extra periods.
We take one day to study the dictation...and the next day the child writes the dictation. The day my daughter studies the dictation she reads it aloud to me and we discuss some of the things that Susan does in her video - parenthetical statements, use of commas, mechanics, etc. We also discuss words that she finds a challenge to spell. She studies any challenging words to make a mental image of them. We stop there. I do not have her memorize the work. We spend one day studying the dictation, and then the next day, I ask if she's ready (she usually is, but will let me know if she has questions or wants to study more), and then we write.
I suppose the key for us is what is the goal? We use dictations to:
1) build spelling skills
2) offer grammar naturally lessons - through the dictation selection
3) cultivate the habit of attention
I do not read so much aloud as part of the dictation to stress the student's memory, because for us this isn't about memorization, but I do not repeat the selection that I have dictated. I read once - we move on. If a child forgets what I said, they can do their best and move on.
If you're just starting dictations, Angela, I'd start with shorter selections that contain a couple of challenging spelling words. Start small and build on success, extending the length of his dictations as he builds the habit of attention and you ease into a style/method that works for you.
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Erin
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| Posted: Aug 06 2010 at 3:57pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
If you're just starting dictations, Angela, I'd start with shorter selections that contain a couple of challenging spelling words. Start small and build on success, extending the length of his dictations as he builds the habit of attention and you ease into a style/method that works for you.
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Great advice, and you mentioned wanting to start narrations, I wouldn't just yet, except perhaps for oral narrations. Don't do too much at once.
Regards whether I repeat dictations sentences, I do  and I have to stop, I'm in a bad habit I'm hand holding too much.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Aug 14 2010 at 9:45am | IP Logged
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I really wanted to drop another thought into this thread, Angela! I was reading this week, doing some more researching and I came across this from a Fall 1921 PNEU Programme of study in CM's schools:
Emphasis mine...
Quote:
Dictation (A New Handwriting to be used)
Two or three pages or a passage to be prepared first from a newspaper; or, from the prose and poetry set for reading; a paragraph to be then dictated in III, in IV to be occasionally written from memory. |
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Form IV would be about 8th - 9th grade, which is right where your son is. I didn't remember coming across this idea before in CM, and maybe I did and it just didn't stand out to me like it did when I read it this time. But, since you were asking about writing dictations from memory as Susan does, I wanted to add to this thread. It would seem that Susan's methods really isn't far off from CM's methods for this age!!!
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Jen Mackintosh
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Different methods of dictation
