4Real Forums: I hope this all comes out ok....

Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.

Active Topics || Favorites || Member List || Search || About Us || Help || Register || Login

Domestic Church
4Real Forums : Domestic Church

Topic: I hope this all comes out ok....

Author

Message

<< Prev Topic | Next Topic >>

Vanna
Forum Pro

Joined: May 09 2008
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 331

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 12:22pm \| IP Logged

I was reading another post about being "saved" or I guess it could be the term "born again". I am a convert to the Church so I don't always feel like I understand all that goes on. I'm trying to but the Church has so much depth that it's hard to really grasp it all.

I feel very much that I am saved by Jesus. I have asked Jesus into my heart, soul, life, everything. The bible does state that you are born-again in Christ. I feel that I am a new person now that I have accepted the teachings of the Bible and have accepted Jesus as my saviour.

Is this thinking Anti-Catholic? If so why? I guess I'm confused about it all. Am I not allowed to be Catholic if I feel saved and born-again?

Thanks everyone! :)

__________________
Wife to K

Mommy to B (ds18) and G (ds8)

CatholicMommy
Forum All-Star

Joined: Feb 07 2007
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1254

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 12:38pm \| IP Logged

In a conversation once with a door to door person (yes, I actually answered this one - he never came around again though - I was looking forward to continuing our discussion!), I said something that I *hope* is essentially true: that every time we consecrate ourselves to the Lord, every time we receive the Sacraments and all that extra grace it is *like* being born again - over and over renewing our commitment.

***With that said, the official church teaching is that Baptism IS being born again - and Confirmation completes that process.***

But I know the feeling you have - and my first paragraph is how I explained it to the gentlemen at my door (who couldn't pronounce Eucharist and refuted my belief in the Real Presence by telling me about a home for alcoholic priests (???????)).

So, no guilt! You are NOT anti-Catholic

Rachel May
Forum All-Star

Joined: June 24 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2057

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 1:05pm \| IP Logged

I had a priest put it like this:

I was saved through Baptism. (We must accept Christ in order to be saved.)
I am working out my salvation everyday. (My daily deeds affect my salvation. My sinfulness breaks my relationship with God, my good works draw me closer to Him.)
I hope to be saved when I die.(My lack of repentance in this life can affect whether I go to Heaven.)

This third point is one that confused a friend of mine. She was so used to believing in a "secure salvation"--one that could not be lost, that the idea that God would allow us to reject Him through sin after having accepted Him through our Baptism was something she had to work through.

__________________
Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)

CatholicMommy
Forum All-Star

Joined: Feb 07 2007
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1254

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 1:12pm \| IP Logged

I think Rachel really hit on the real difference of definition at hand - many non-Catholics use the term born again or saved and truly mean a "once for all" event. But we are creatures of free will and can "renege" so to speak - make mistakes, commit another sin - and we are right back to needing salvation... Catholics see salvation as an ongoing thing. We should seek perfection, but know that we cannot do it alone. We also believe that whatever state of grace in which we die is the ultimate state that determines our fate - hence someone can live a terrible life but come to the Lord in the last moment and still gain heaven.

Michaela
Forum All-Star

Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 1:15pm \| IP Logged

Forgive this copy & paste. My littles are sick, and i don't have time to type. Rachel's response reminded me of this in my favorites

Have You Been Saved?

Past Event (I have been saved)
Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved
Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2Tim 1;9 - He saved us, called us according to his grace
Tit 3:5 - He saved us through bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit

Present Process (I am being saved)
Phil 2;12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1Pet 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

Future Event (I will be saved)
Mt 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
Mt 24:1 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
Mk 8:35 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
Rom 13:11 - salvation is nearer now than first believed
Cor 3:15 - he shall be saved, but only as through fire
1Cor 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
Heb 9:28 - Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation
-----------------------------------------
Assurance of Salvation?
Mt 7:21 - not everyone saying "Lord, Lord" will inherit
Mt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you've fallen from grace
2Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains

__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3

Elizabeth
Founder
Founder

Real Learning

Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 2:49pm \| IP Logged

That's pretty cool Michaela.Thanks. From where did you cut and paste?

__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)

doris
Forum All-Star

Joined: April 24 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1103

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 3:09pm \| IP Logged

Great discussion, and very much to the point as I've recently discussed with my ex-Catholic, now Baptist friend when I 'was saved'. She couldn't understand at all when I said I had made a commitment more than once (I'm a convert to Catholicism via Pentecostalism and Anglicanism) and that I have to recommit every single day. As some great writer said (can't remember his name now) 'Preach a continual mission to yourself.'

Sorry, losing the thread a bit, but I'll watch with interest.

__________________
Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days

Michaela
Forum All-Star

Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 5:22pm \| IP Logged

Elizabeth wrote:

From where did you cut and paste?

From here: Catholic verse finder

The Word (.doc) Format is nice. Print on one sheet (front and back).

Laminated copies are available online for $3 (ex. Adoremus books).
I've also seen the laminated version in my Catholic bookstore.

__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3

MichelleW
Forum All-Star

Joined: April 01 2005
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 947

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 9:57pm \| IP Logged

You know Vanna, what you describe in NOT anti-Catholic BUT it is incomplete.

Christ does save us. Did save us, continues to save us.

Recognizing God's salvific will for us is the beginning of true heart conversion. However, the Catholic view of salvation is that it is fluid. So everything that you offered to the Lord up until you realized God's salvific will for you, nurtured your soul, and everything offered since that moment sanctifies you. Most people have a hard time pointing to a clear moment of realization, but that doesn't mean they haven't had one.

The point is to not stay there. We can't submit to Christ as our "Lord and Savior" just once, because we keep taking control back from Him. We must submit to Him continually, we must invite Him into every aspect of our lives daily, and die to self over and over again.

I hesitate to press "post" because I am so far from being "there" and I hope that it doesn't sound like I think I am. Well...here goes...

__________________
Michelle
Mom to 3 (dd 14, ds 15, and ds 16)

jenk
Forum Pro

Joined: Jan 25 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248

Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 11:56pm \| IP Logged

This has been very helpful to me. I'm in the process of joining the Catholic Church from a Protestant background. Several things bothered me about the "once saved, always saved" theology. I once asked in a Protestant Bible study if it was believed that after one was saved, could the individual then choose to reject Christ thus losing salvation. (We DO have free will and humans can be fickle) This was then taken to a pastor and I was told that someone asking that question must not be sure of their salvation. Instead of an accurate answer, I was put on the defensive. Also, many of the churches I've attended in the past had "alter calls" to be saved and I always wondered how one could be sure that salvation "took" (weird way to put it) but looking at salvation as fluid is a wonderful way to view it. I appreciate the initial post and the answers. Thanks to all!

__________________
Jen
with 2 boys, 14 and 8, and a girl expected 1/09

MarilynW
Forum All-Star

Joined: June 28 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4275

Posted: Feb 20 2009 at 6:59am \| IP Logged

Dear Vanna - we are discussing this and other questions a lot in our home at the moment, as my daughter is preparing for Confirmation. We have had some fascinating discussions which have really made me think. My daughter (12) has an Apologetics blog - Explaining the Faith where she is discussing the issues. She actually has a post on Born Again/Saved, but is still working on it so it is in draft. I am supposed to be doing companion posts on my blog on the same subjects - but am WAY behind her. But I am going to steal some of her ideas and post them:

Firstly: when asked if I am born again, I respond that I have been baptized. From reading Acts 2 (Peter speaking before Pentecost) and the Catholic Catechism 1262 - baptism washed away original sin and my personal sin. Also I received the Holy Spirit when I was baptized. I think that sometimes there is a misunderstanding of John 3 ( ..more to write on the born again emphasis)

Secondly - Catholics stress that our salvation is not a once and for all event but something that is goes on throughout our lives.

The answer I would give to the "Are you saved" question is one that Alan Schreck mentions in "Catholic and Christian":
Yes - I have been saved because Jesus died on the cross and rose again to save me from my sin.
Yes - I am being saved as each day I have to come to Jesus and accept his gift of salvation.
Yes - I hope to be saved - because I have to keep "pressing on" throughout my life to be faithful and obedient.

( By the way - the book "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" by David Currie is excellent)

__________________
Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God

kozimom
Forum Newbie

Joined: June 17 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 22

Posted: Feb 20 2009 at 1:49pm \| IP Logged

Well, I first want to say that I love this board and am learning so much from you ladies! But.....I am protestant......and the funny thing is, is that all that you've been discussing about a Catholic position on being saved is what I've been taught pretty much all along! Perhaps Canadian protestants have a different understanding from more southern baptist type teaching?

stacykay
Forum All-Star

Joined: April 08 2006
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1858

Posted: Feb 20 2009 at 3:54pm \| IP Logged

kozimom wrote:

I was raised Episcopal, and I, also, had more of a "Catholic" education regarding baptism and salvation. I think it depends on the "type" of protestant one is. My sister is Lutheran now, and her views of baptism/salvation align more closely with my "official" Catholic ones than one of my girlfriend's who is evangelical.

God Bless,
Stacy in MI (confirmed into Catholic faith Easter Vigil '83)

Vanna
Forum Pro

Joined: May 09 2008
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 331

Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 11:52am \| IP Logged

Amazing! Thank you ladies!

This makes so much more sense to me now. I agree that salvation is NOT a one time deal. I mean if I ask Jesus into my heart (which I do everyday) then tomorrow I go sin, wouldn't it make sense that I need to ask again.

Thank you again for the great answers.

__________________
Wife to K

Mommy to B (ds18) and G (ds8)

Michaela
Forum All-Star

Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052

Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 12:30pm \| IP Logged

Vanna wrote:

I mean if I ask Jesus into my heart (which I do everyday) then tomorrow I go sin, wouldn't it make sense that I need to ask again.

I've had nonCatholic friends tell me this. They couldn't tell me exactly what it means though.

As a Catholic, could you tell me what this means to you?

__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3

Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star

Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621

Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 4:51pm \| IP Logged

Michaela wrote:

Vanna wrote:

I mean if I ask Jesus into my heart (which I do everyday) then tomorrow I go sin, wouldn't it make sense that I need to ask again.

I've had nonCatholic friends tell me this. They couldn't tell me exactly what it means though.

As a Catholic, could you tell me what this means to you?

????

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that if you sin, you should ask the Lord to forgive you (possibly with confession in the mix), but not "ask him into your heart again" because that seems to indicate that He has completely left you because of sin??? Venial sin weakens a relationship but doesn't sever it.

As a former evangelical, I think that most of the contemporary protestant denominations mean "when did you become a Christian" when they ask, "When were you saved" or "when did you ask Jesus into your heart."

I think Catholics often respond with a comment about when they were baptized. This is confusing to protestants because of semantics, mostly. It can be helpful to use language they are more familiar with.

You could say, "Yes, I am saved. I was baptized as a young child, and I completed my commitment to Christ when I was in the 8th grade and chose to receive confirmation." Or something like that. Making it clear that you "chose" confirmation helps them to understand that you are a Catholic by choice and not just because you were born into a Catholic family. They have some misconceptions about cradle Catholics.

When protestants ask about this, they are wanting to know about personal assent to Jesus, which doesn't equate well with our theology of baptism. Confirmation is more similar, although not exact.

Incidentally, there are two main streams of thought in protestantism about salvation. Catholic Apologetics books sometimes misrepresent the protestant position on this. Technically, Calvinists believe in the once saved/always saved doctrine. This would include anything presbyterian based or with the word "Reformed" in front of it. Then there are those with an Arminian theology, which is more similar to the Catholic position (that you choose Christ and can choose to walk away from God, but God never chooses to walk away from you).

The confusing part is that many of the newer evangelical churches are more Arminian in behavior (having altar calls and encouraging proselytizing) but they also claim they believe in the once saved/always saved doctrine. These are actually mutually exclusive, as any devout Calvinist will tell you. It irritates the bejeebers out of them to hear about churches who say they believe in the Once saved/Always saved doctrine AND have altar calls. This is because the once saved/always saved doctrine goes hand in hand with the idea that NO ONE chooses God...God chooses whom He will. The idea is that humans are so dead in their sins that they are not capable of choosing God. That means God has to choose them. The problem with this is that it makes God out as someone who creates souls who never have a chance to be saved. So what is the point of an altar call or witnessing if you cannot choose God?

So in classic protestant theology, the older denominations are clearly one doctrine or the other regarding salvation. But in the contemporary Christian churches, they tend to harvest theological ideas from both camps, and sometimes they don't make sense when put together.

Clear as mud?

__________________
Blessings,

~Books

mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and

due 9/10

Alice R
Forum Pro

Joined: May 28 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 169

Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 5:53pm \| IP Logged

Bookswithtea wrote:

Michaela wrote:

[QUOTE=Vanna] I mean if I ask Jesus into my heart (which I do everyday) then tomorrow I go sin, wouldn't it make sense that I need to ask again.

I've had nonCatholic friends tell me this. They couldn't tell me exactly what it means though.

As a Catholic, could you tell me what this means to you?

As a former Baptist who attends a Lutheran Chruch...
I'll take an stab at that one.

I am saved (whether you are a born again or thru baptism). My sin is washed away through the blood of Jesus. I am now a Child of God.

If I sin, I don't ask Jesus into my heart again. I'm already His child and I know that I am loved and forgiven, just like I forgive my children when they sin. They are alwasy part of my family no matter what they do. I can't undo that.

I feel that way about God. I was bought with a price and I am forever indebted to my Savior. I know I am His precious daughter.

I ask for forgiveness and am truly sorry for my sins.

How did that explanation go?

__________________
Mom to Nathaniel (10), Noah (8) Alise (6) Rebekah (3)and expecting another blessing Faith, Grace and Family

BrendaPeter
Forum All-Star

Joined: Feb 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 981

Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 7:40pm \| IP Logged

I love the Bible Christian Society and listen to the free cds in my car. John Martignoni is very logical and well-spoken and his cds are from a totally biblical perspective.

__________________
Blessings,

Brenda (mom to 6)

Rachel May
Forum All-Star

Joined: June 24 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2057

Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 8:16pm \| IP Logged

Bookswithtea wrote:

Clear as mud?

Actually, I think your explanation was really interesting and clear, but I have never understood what an altar call is.

__________________
Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)

Michaela
Forum All-Star

Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052

Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 9:03pm \| IP Logged

Michaela wrote:

As a Catholic, could you tell me what this means to you?

Bookswithtea wrote:

It can be helpful to use language they are more familiar with.

Yes, thank you for the explanation. For me, without a doubt, it is the use of unfamiliar language. That's why I asked Vanna what asking Jesus into her heart meant to her. I didn't want to guess since it's not language I hear often (if at all) from Catholics.

__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

[Add this topic to My Favorites]

Printable version

Forum Jump

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Hosting and Support provided by theNetSmith.com