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Bethany
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 3:45pm | IP Logged
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I've been thinking of making an If/Then chart to post for my girls to see exactly what is expected and the consequence of misbehavior. When I searched online, most had a certain number of spankings and that's what I want to avoid.
The problem is that I'm horrible at coming up with appropriate consequences that will actually make a difference. So many suggest no computer, video game or tv time, but they have no computer & video game time already and watch very little tv. With one child, time outs are a problem because she is so defiant and absolutely has a fit. She is the most demanding and the most in need of consistent, meaningful correction.
I'm just at a lost and looking for ideas. How do you deal with very loud and defiant child? And, what would be appropriate discipline for things like talking back, arguing with parents and siblings, not telling the truth, or just generally being destructive?
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Bethany
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 3:51pm | IP Logged
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Putting the ages here........
7 ;5.5 3.5
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Bethany
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 4:20pm | IP Logged
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Thanks Suzanne, I had an ant issue to address and had to get off quickly.
The biggest offenders are the 5.5 and 3.5. My 5.5 is the most defiant and "stong willed" as you would say. The 3.5 is generally a happy, lively girl with just the typical pre-schooler behavior. I'm most concerned with the 5.5 yo because she can be just so sour but can also be the most empathetic and loving. She can be mean to her sisters, but no one else had better mess with them!
Thank you everyone for any suggestions.
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Bethany
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Caroline
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 4:40pm | IP Logged
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Wow. I wish I had an answer for you, but I just have a defiant, stubborn, strong willed 5 year old. 
I would love to hear some suggestions, but right now we mostly use timeouts. They're good because he is very social and wants to be with the family, but if is very upset then a timeout makes him erupt. I'm still trying to find a balance.
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JodieLyn
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I like a standing with nose on the wall near me for timeouts. It allows me to have more control over things like self talk that is victimizing (it's not my fault, she made me pinch her.) that way I can continue correcting to foster the right attitude.
It was also handy when a child that was supposed to be doing a job wasn't and when asked they said they were doing nothing.. I see.. are you sure about that.. let's figure out what nothing is.. and then they got to be on the wall near me and really do nothing. The work was a whole lot more attractive after a short while. 
But basically I don't find timeouts work if they seperate a child or make it very difficult for me to keep a close eye on them in another way.. or are just something to suffer through.. or even enjoy.. I can remember being seperated from others in school for talking  and it didn't help me pay attention I just would daydream the time away.
Let's see.. redoing chores until done properly can be a much more instructive consequence than a time out or spanking. Gee, you didn't do this or that, you must need more practise. You may do it again. If your consistent they will figure out pretty quickly that it will take way less time to just do it right the first time.
Backtalk would be on the wall, that usually seems to happen here when emotions are running rampant and they need help learning self control.. and that generally requires external control at the begninning to teach them how to control themselves.
The problem with a chart is that you can't get too specific.. when a child here goes on the wall.. them gaining control of their mouth and attitude is what gains them freedom.. not a timer.
Here kids can earn money by extra chores.. as in they may not do chores for money until their normal chores are complete. If a child destroys something on purpose (not accidental.. and an older child is held to higher standards of knowing that if you play catch with a breakable object it's likely to break is not an accident) then they will have to earn the money to pay for the replacment.. or at least a portion depending on the child and the actual cost.. if it's mine I often have them "work it off" so I don't attach actual money value to it but "hard labor"
Not telling the truth.. gosh then I just will have to not believe anything you tell me.. I might have to check everytime I was told daddy said I could ________.. or I would believe the sibling over the one who had lied. And I would praise for having been told the truth after it was verified. But I would try to quickly reduce the trust so hard and fast there was no doubt it's a precious commodity. But give it back a faster as well.. yes require proof that they're telling the truth.. but let them back in your good graces fairly quickly.. they're still pretty little.
And mostly on the lying it would be the 7 yr old.. the 5 yr old and 3 yr old especially the 3 yr old still may not understand cause and effect.. and you can get things with accidents where the child feels the wind, and doesn't realize that their touch pushed an object (since it wasn't intended) so they may actually think the wind pushed the object. So lying is a bit less absolute at that age depending on the thing. and guidance in telling the truth will help more than jumping on a "lie". Also you may get some lies about the time they figure out that you can't actually see what they're thinking.. and are just working out that whole how things work.
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dawn2006
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| Posted: April 22 2009 at 9:30pm | IP Logged
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Honestly, I have no solutions that don't utilize spanking or withrawing of privileges. Although, I still do all the explaining I used to do when trying to be very API (Attachment Parenting International), it just now often comes after the punishment and the calming down.
Good luck and I'm sure someone will have great suggestions.
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anitamarie
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We have had problems with certain people throwing fits during a timeout, and we simply explained that the timeout would start when the fit stopped. Sometimes it took a long time before that timeout started, but after a while, the fits became shorter in duration. I agree totally with Jodie about staying close by. All timeouts are under parent supervision around here. If a child is defiant about the timeout, the parent involved will actually hold the child in the timeout space. This does take extra effort and patience and diligence and all that. Some kids just require more parenting. Dr. Ray Guarendi has said that some kids require parenting at a level of 3 and some 10. The number referring to how much effort a parent puts in. I agree with that. Some of my kids require a lot more out of me than others.
We do use an if/then chart. I have found it takes the anger out of the situation for me and I don't have to come up with a consequence on the spot. Some of our consequences include doing work for the person they harmed, extra work, writing sentences related to the behavior, writing essays (for older children), loss of allowance, loss of snack privileges, loss of bedtime story privileges, etc.
I would also suggest a sister chart with positive behaviors and consequences, based on specific virtues. The reward for something on that chart could be a bean in a jar and when the jar is full, do something fun together, like a family movie night, or ice cream sundae night,etc.
Good Luck. We all struggle with this stuff.
Anita
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stellamaris
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One thing that has worked here especially with the littler ones (8,8,6 boys) is using "poetry", as in : "You do the climb, you do the time (timeout)" or "You shirk, you work".
Some of the emotional aspect is removed from the discipline when I just quote these little sayings. They know climbing brings a time-out (which I also do not begin until they are sitting quietly) and not doing a job means they have an extra job added. How about, "You talk back, you rest in the sack!" Since obviously, if you're talking disrespectfully, it must mean you are too tired to talking politely!!! They find these poetic gems humorous, and sometimes a little touch of humor helps the medicine go down!
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Bethany
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| Posted: April 23 2009 at 10:00am | IP Logged
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Thank you all for your help.
Anita, removing the anger and not having to come up with a new consequence every time is exactly why I wish to have a set chart with everything laid out for everyone. I think it would help everyone, DH and myself included.
Dawn, I don't consider myself an "attachment parent", I just have one child that can be so aggressive, I don't think spanking really helps. Plus, just trying to spank her can turn ugly fast  . I;m not against spanking entirely, but DH and I have different ideas about what is spank worthy and how it should be carried out. I only had two spankings as a child and his were more indiscriminate. But my mother admits I was an easy child and neither of her children were anything like my 2nd DD.
Thank you for all the ideas, it will help with formulating a plan.
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Bethany
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cvbmom
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| Posted: April 23 2009 at 1:37pm | IP Logged
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Caroline,
I'd love to hear more of your "poetic gems" 
God bless,
Christine
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SuzanneG
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[QUOTE=cvbmom] Caroline,
I'd love to hear more of your "poetic gems" /QUOTE]
I started a new thread here:
Poetic Gems for Training, Manners, and Discipline
Let's brainstorm....these are SO EFFECTIVE!
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Jody
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Bethany,
We do spank at our house (which is usually very effective here) but I had one son that did not respond to it. For him I had only to give extra chores and be consistent with it and his behavior improved. He was a boy that LOVED his play time, anything that interferred with that was just horrible. So when the rest of the kids were able to play and he had to do an extra chore...well he saw the light.
Peace,
Jody
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Jody
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| Posted: April 23 2009 at 2:45pm | IP Logged
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I forgot to mention...Jodie I really like your idea of the-nose-to-the-wall. I think that would be very effective!
Jody
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 23 2009 at 2:51pm | IP Logged
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you know I think I hit on that one (I'm not real strict that the nose touch the wall but they do face the wall) because there is simply no where to put them in our small house with many children that something isn't going on.
Plus it can be wherever I am.
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Syncletica
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I've been meaning to post for awhile, but I am so tired and never seem to get a chance to look at the books I've been meaning to....
For a strong-willed child, the consequences have to count. It has to be something that means a lot to them. A spank would have to be felt, ifykwim, in order for them to choose to obey rather than take the consequences. Strong-willed children want control more than anything. What we have to try and get through to them is that it's in their best interest to relinquish control. They will purposely choose to defy you if it means they can stay in control, so long as the consequences aren't something they're too concerned about. What's worked for me (I have a very strong-willed 3 year old), sometimes, is to deprive him of dessert or candy while everyone else gets to have one. One time he wanted control of the situation by obeying only when it pleased him to do so. (As is usually the case). I think it had something to do with shoes vs. boots or something. He threw a fit, and lucky for me, my dh was home. He (child) was given more chances than he really should've been given, but had to stay home while all his siblings came, b/c he was not willingly obeying and was throwing fits. That had an impact on him.
If she wants to be active constantly, perhaps a suitable consequence would be to sit still on a chair for as long as you say, until she shows some sign of repentance and a willingness to cooperate. She should be downright bored, if this is employed. Let her know her life 'stops' until she can behave appropriately. If she comes off the chair, try a spank. If she cries bloody murder, let her know she's not going to win, and that she has, say, 3 minutes to stop before she gets another one. Make sure you don't give an attitude of "This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you." It should be the other way around for a strong-willed child, and emotion should be totally left out of it. They purchased the 'item', now they're receiving it.
I recommend the book, "Aarons Way" by Kendra Smiley.
Here's a section that talks about lying (it's under "Dishonesty".
My children have a horrible tendency to be destructive. It's better now with the older ones, at least (8 and 6), but could still use some improvement. (Well, the 6 yr old, anyway. The 8 year old is finally done her destructiveness it appears.) When it's toys, I suppose a suitable consequence would be to throw it away if it's broken beyond repair, or give it to 'someone who will appreciate it' if it's not. Perhaps working out some way to have them pay for something, if that can be done. "Because you've wrecked this, we need to replace it, and you will have to help pay for it." Set a chosen amount for certain chores to be done as payment towards item.
Talking back - cut them off before they can finish it - nip it in the bud. Have them sit and be quiet and tell them what it is you expect them to say. Ex. "I want to hear you say 'okay, mom' with a good attitude and go do what you've been told.' Repeat until this is accomplished. If there is a strong unwillingness to cooperate, they can sit until you say so....
I'm still having many problems with some of them being so loud. I end up saying things I shouldn't. But just try to keep working on them using inside voices. It can be soooooo aggravating when they JUST COME YELLING AT YOU THAT YOU'VE JUST GOT TO COME SEE THIS THING RIGHT NOW!!!!! AND THEN 2 OR THREE OF THEM GET GOING AND YOUR HEAD BEGINS TO SPIN....Ouch. Hurts just remembering it...
Some ideas anyway. Use what you can and leave the rest! I'm in the same boat as you....
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Anne
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I heard you asking for an If-Then chart so I searched the Doorposts site and found these 2 charts that allow you to put your own consequences/rewards on the chart.
They do have suggestions and spanking is one of them however, you can omit those and use your own.
I have used the If-Then Chart in the past when mine were much younger. It really helped give them a visual set of rules and the chart has cute drawings so even a non reader can understand. Plus it gives a bible verse that corresponds with the crime. Check it out. It may be just what you are looking for.
We also used theBlessings Chart but it did not seem to have the longevity that the discipline chart had.
Just my 2 cents.
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Bethany
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Thank you Syncletica. We do sound like we're in the same boat!! I guess I'm just having a hard time determining what is meaningful to my strong willed 5yo. The face to the wall has seemed to make more of a difference than sending her to her room. That was just like a mini spa day, where she could spend time lying in bed (probably one of her favorite acitivies).
I'll look at the book you suggested. I have to admit, I've never read Dobson's book just because my SIL thought her daughter, who is 4 months older than my 5yo, was strong willed. I never saw anything that made me think she was even remotely as difficult as my 5yo and one thing she did with her daughter I just hated, so I never even read the book. I've probably have discriminated against it because of that and maybe I should reconsider.
.
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Bethany
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Syncletica
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| Posted: April 30 2009 at 12:34pm | IP Logged
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I've never read Dobson's book either, but I really liked "Aaron's Way". One reviewer said something about 'dunking it in a huge vat of yellow highlighter', I must agree.
Here's a link to one that I was too lazy to do last night:
Aaron's Way
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Help with consequences
