| Author | |
KellyJ
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 29 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 598
|
| Posted: July 24 2006 at 7:27pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
ALmom wrote:
| Could CHC and others, perhaps allow for the re-use of plans in the family (I would pay an additional fee for this priviledge) but resell the consumable portions for a smaller fee (the First Communion book plans, etc.) |
|
|
Janet, I noticed an option recently on CHC's site -- a group copyright for the syllabi. Search for copyright on the site, and then select View All. There you will see the group copyrights available.
K: $54.95
1st: $84.95
2nd: $100
3rd: $120
4th: $125
Middle School Yrs: $150
Catholic Garden of Puzzles: $25
A Year With God: $150
Those were the ones I've seen and corresponding group copyright prices.
KellyJ
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: July 24 2006 at 11:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
KellyJ wrote:
Janet, I noticed an option recently on CHC's site -- a group copyright for the syllabi. Search for copyright on the site, and then select View All. There you will see the group copyrights available.
K: $54.95
1st: $84.95
2nd: $100
3rd: $120
4th: $125
Middle School Yrs: $150
Catholic Garden of Puzzles: $25
A Year With God: $150
Those were the ones I've seen and corresponding group copyright prices.
KellyJ |
|
|
Wow. I don't know anyone who could afford that extra expense or would spend their money that way if they could. Worth it or not, I don't see that as affordable for either the buyer or seller. IF I was willing to do that, it would seriously curtail any other purchases. I might do it for 1 item with them, but I wouldn't be able to buy many other items from them if I did. I would also be even more leery of taking a risk of being stuck with an item I can't return. Taking the risk for a $15 - $20 item is hard enough. There's just no way I could justify it for such an expense.
ALmom wrote:
| resell the consumable portions for a smaller fee (the First Communion book plans, etc.) |
|
|
Now I think that would be good for everyone. As another posted, very few use the any plans as printed.
Expecting customers to pay for the entire plans, when all they want/need are the appendices seems a bit unrealistic. It seems more practical to think they won't buy the plans at all. A year with God, I'm not sure why someone would spend that kind of money as most of it isn't stuff you actually use, it's ideas and plans most of the time. Not tear out and do stuff, kwim? hmm , interesting.
Most workbooks I just don't think are worth reuse. I've tried that cheap road of copying as needed and it's not that cheap a road no matter how you do it. First off, it's time consumming to do it and extra work to keep track of it. Second, it's more work for the kids if they just write things in a notebook and more work for me to grade. The younger kids have a harder time than older kids. But the older kids have more work to transfer and it's harder for me to grade. Third, once mine are past 3rd grade or so, I find we don't have has many comsumables anyhow.
The only books I have found it worth keeping in reusable condition are religion, history, art, and science. These are the more expensive to buy and the easiest to reuse. I rarely bother with the others anymore. I found our time is worth something too and often its value is more than the trouble of reusing most workbooks.
Anyhow. It's getting late here, but I'm thrilled to see this honestly discussed somewhere! 
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 5:33am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I know several people who have wanted to use the appendices but know they won't follow and don't need the lesson plans. They are veteran homeschoolers already in their groove--a whole new market for CHC. But they don't buy the plans just for the appendices, they just move on and figure that they can rig something of their own. These are moms who have been at it a long time and they recognize, looking at all the curriculum they've sold used over the years, that they can't buy everything that looks good. Sometimes, we have to exercise self-restraint and sacrifice having it all laid out for us because that's better stewardship.
Interestingly, these are moms who started homeschooling twenty or fifteen years ago--when Catholic resources were very limited. Though they are glad to see what's available now, they also know it can be done with very little prepared curriculum. And then, there's that lovely lady on the boat, doing it all with a computer and a library.
She is homeschooling for free--denying herself the little thrill of the curriculum box to unpack, in favor of no clutter, no "stuff management" and a rich curriculum tailored especially for her child.
I've been selling and selling on the Trading POst. Lots of those things are great things. They just weren't right for us or we've moved beyond their usefulness. Yet, my guilt over having bought nearly every good thing ever recommended on CCM or here is assuaged every time I pack it up and ship it out. I know I don't NEED a lot of stuff to make this a good experience for my children (so says the woman who has blogged all week about great stuff).
I'm trying to train myself not to do things like buying daily lesson plans I won't use, just to have the appendix. I don't think that's wise buying. And I almost never buy something I can only use for one child...To me, this sort of seems like the change in policy at Catholic schools. Used to be, tuition was a sliding scale. You paid full price for one child and then more and more reduced prices as your enrollment went up, so that a family with five children in grades 1-8 could send them all to a Catholic school. Now, I think tuition at a local parish is $4K per child--for each and every child. And then if you've got one in high schol, too--whew! To me, this doesn't encourage big families or Catholic education. Instead, the Church is placing a burden on the big family. Often home education is the alternative--it's an affordable Catholic education [I know that money isn't the driving force behind keeping your kids home and not using a parochial school, but I've definitely seen it keep families from enrolling in February when homeschooling gets tough. Tuition is impossible. Tough or impossible? I'll take tough.]
When home education materials fail to recognize the budgets or the realities of large families, we have a problem. But it's not insurmountable. Often, the unaffordable open the window to what God wants. You love Company A's First Communion lesson plans, but you can't afford to buy the whole second grade LP manual this year? Maybe God is nudging you to find all the great First Communion prep ideas shared freely here...
There are lots of things I want. I'm like a child in a toy store at a Curriculum Fair (or in the tub with a catalog for that matter), but this whole thing has taught me a lesson (probably because it came at a time where mioney is very, very tight). I need to read the copyright restrictions carefully. I need to read return policies carefully and I need to consider whether even great things are prudent purchases for a large family , where sharing, re-using and recycling is a high priority.
I guess my point is that we shouldn't despair when we discover that cost or usage policy puts any particular program or resource out of our reach. Sometimes, it's just that obstacle which will provide the impetus for a greater blessing and the tangible grace of God. If you can afford the lovely things on the glossy pages, they might be just what God intends but if you can't, trust that He has something better in mind.
As a corollary, remember that sharing ideas is a ministry. We need each other. Themore you share here, the more likely you are to spread the blessing and to enable other families to educate at home despite limited resources. Whether it's just a little idea on a tiny thread, a lovely spread on your blog, or you get really generous and share a full-blown curriculum, there are so many opportunities to help each other carry the cross and certainly we are called to be ministers to one another.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Karen E.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 7:15am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
There are lots of things I want. I'm like a child in a toy store at a Curriculum Fair (or in the tub with a catalog for that matter) |
|
|
 Isn't this the truth? A friend and I were laughing at ourselves the other day about how excited we get over new supplies, new books, new bookshelves, etc. I told her I'm convinced that those of us who homeschool are the kids who loved to play school when we were little and that we really only homeschool so that we can write on chalkboards and keep fun record books. 
But seriously, a tight budget can remind us to look at this: am I interested in buying this new book/gadget/curriculum for me, or because I really think it will help the kids? As you said, Elizabeth, so often we'll find that we can help the kids in ways that are simpler than we think.
__________________
God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 9:40am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
I guess my point is that we shouldn't despair when we discover that cost or usage policy puts any particular program or resource out of our reach. Sometimes, it's just that obstacle which will provide the impetus for a greater blessing and the tangible grace of God. If you can afford the lovely things on the glossy pages, they might be just what God intends but if you can't, trust that He has something better in mind.
|
|
|
Thank you for this, Elizabeth. It has been good to read coming at a time when we have taken a huge financial hit, the cupboards are bare and I don't know where our groceries will come from this month. I had big plans to buy alot of books for next year because our library is so pathetic, but now it looks as if God has other plans in store for us. I can't wait to see what they are. 
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 9:59am | IP Logged
|
|
|
lapazfarm wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
I guess my point is that we shouldn't despair when we discover that cost or usage policy puts any particular program or resource out of our reach. Sometimes, it's just that obstacle which will provide the impetus for a greater blessing and the tangible grace of God. If you can afford the lovely things on the glossy pages, they might be just what God intends but if you can't, trust that He has something better in mind.
|
|
|
Thank you for this, Elizabeth. It has been good to read coming at a time when we have taken a huge financial hit, the cupboards are bare and I don't know where our groceries will come from this month. I had big plans to buy alot of books for next year because our library is so pathetic, but now it looks as if God has other plans in store for us. I can't wait to see what they are. |
|
|
Theresa,
Know that you have company in that particular place. I think there are several of us being called to do something a little different from "our plan" this year. Chin up! We're in it together!
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 2:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
KellyJ wrote:
Janet, I noticed an option recently on CHC's site -- a group copyright for the syllabi. Search for copyright on the site, and then select View All. There you will see the group copyrights available.
K: $54.95
1st: $84.95
2nd: $100
3rd: $120
4th: $125
Middle School Yrs: $150
Catholic Garden of Puzzles: $25
A Year With God: $150
Those were the ones I've seen and corresponding group copyright prices.
KellyJ |
|
|
I think there is some confusion here. In the Spring Catalog on the Middle School plans page it says "It may be used year after year, with all of your children." On another page, it says (about the same plans) "one time purchase." The high school plans, too, are one time purchases.So why would anyone need to pay $150 unless they were using it for all the kids in a co-op or something (where the cost would be spread over several people and so more affordable)?
Now, I don't see that about the younger plans...but I don't see anything in the catalog that says you must limit your use to one child in the family. It does say very clearly in the plans themselves though, that you may not copy anything whatsoever, which means that all the appendices would be useless with the next child, if you used all the coloring pages and blanks, etc. I don't write in mine and I don't use the appendices as written (I do my own First Communion notebooks and lapbooks and such using different formats and paper--and I've done that since before I ever saw CHC). So, until very recently, I never really gave copyright and usage policies much thought. I just assumed that however you used a product in your own home after you purchased it was up to you... This whole thread and the one on copyright laws has been very enlightening.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
KellyJ
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 29 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 598
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 3:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
KellyJ wrote:
Middle School Yrs: $150
Catholic Garden of Puzzles: $25
A Year With God: $150
Those were the ones I've seen and corresponding group copyright prices.
KellyJ |
|
|
I think there is some confusion here. In the Spring Catalog on the Middle School plans page it says "It may be used year after year, with all of your children." On another page, it says (about the same plans) "one time purchase." The high school plans, too, are one time purchases.So why would anyone need to pay $150 unless they were using it for all the kids in a co-op or something (where the cost would be spread over several people and so more affordable)?
Now, I don't see that about the younger plans...but I don't see anything in the catalog that says you must limit your use to one child in the family. It does say very clearly in the plans themselves though, that you may not copy anything whatsoever, which means that all the appendices would be useless with the next child, if you used all the coloring pages and blanks, etc. |
|
|
Thank you, Elizabeth, for the clarification on middle school plans. I totally forgot that those are considered re-useable. Still, it is disappointing that the costs are so high to be able to copy pages for one's own family (with my thinking one would need a group copyright or would need to purchase a set of plans for each child).
KellyJ
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 4:26pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oops, I made a mistake in the company that supported us years ago - Elizabeth, you were probably quite surprised as back then, there were hardly any Catholic vendors at all and your book was not yet published, (if you were in existence as a vendor/speaker, we were unaware of it as this was 15 some odd years ago) - so for the record, it was Elizabeth Fogassy with Our Father's House. In any case, I think everything is just plain harder for the Catholic homeschoolers - but then maybe that is as it should be.
I will say that one way we have helped each other is to loan materials from family to family in our small group. A friend and I are sharing Singapore math materials as our dc are just one level apart. We trade who buys the textbook and teacher materials, share those and then only have to purchase our own workbook. I have done this with other materials as well. You learn which families to trust rather quickly. We borrow each other's Saxon and Jacob math texts, etc.
Another way we have helped one another is to have a single order from our group. This year we placed orders with quite a few Catholic suppliers - and instead of 15 piddling orders, they received one huge order - sent to one address. We get the best possible shipping rate and split it as a percentage of our order. The volunteer coordinator has done all the searching for the best place to buy, the best shipping rates, what each person owes as part of the bill and when we must pay. It was a huge undertaking on her part - very, very generous as this same mom is the administrator of our cover school. We have all saved quite a bit of money - but the coordinator will also have some idea of who is purchasing from which vendors when it is time to plan our used book sale.
The hardest part in all this is that in most undertakings, it is the same few moms that are doing the bulk of the work. The same mom who is doing this is also teaching 2 classes in the co-op, administering our school and has young children that must be tended. It is really important that we do appreciate the efforts of our Catholic vendors, volunteers, etc. There are huge undertakings done in a spirit of sacrifice and while there are flashier materials in other places, there are better co-ops (in terms of variety of offerings, professional teachers, elaborate debate teams, sports teams, graduation ceremonies, etc.), there are cheaper materials that work just as well, etc. - still there is something to be said for supporting our Catholic vendors as far as we are able. They have a much harder road to compete and I do want solid Catholic materials. If I don't use them because someone else has something similiar, cheaper, they may not be around for when I do need them.
I have experienced this type of thing with our own co-op attempts. We couldn't get the numbers or interest off the ground for a long time - we never had the numbers because the families with older dc would branch off and join a Protestant cover that could provide more. (and this may have been necessary in their family situations, it isn't for me to judge that - but I do know how it impacted us in trying to provide for our own, too). We couldn't do much because only 2 girls ever came. We had a teacher that was willing to teach if we had x number of people - we couldn't get the minimum number. The same course was offered at a Protestant cover and much more cheaply because of the numbers involved so no one was interested in ours (which was open to families under different covers while the other one mandated belonging to the particular cover). It became quite tempting to just give up and join the other cover and put up with some of the Protestant flavor - but then would we ever have our own cover to discuss history or literature from a Catholic point of view. You get a very slightly different take on Chaucer in a Catholic co-op than a Protestant one, etc. You lose something by not having the opportunity to banter ideas with other Catholics. But until enough people were willing or able to make the sacrifice, we didn't have a co-op because we couln't get the interest. My oldest dd missed out on a lot. Now she is watching her sis benefit (and we are glad that things are finally coming together - but I don't know how many times we tried to do the same for our oldest and no one came  ). She can hardly believe that after 17 years, we actually have a Latin class with 12 students. When we tried it for her, we couldn't get anyone.
For me, when I have a hard time staying ahead of my dc reading and won't always have time to discuss problematic areas appropriately - I really do want something I can trust. I don't want to have to back-track and correct anti-Catholic material or skewed views of the Inquisition, etc. I don't want to have to go into details about Martin Luther and how he wasn't some great saint/hero or the things about smuggling Bibles, etc. I remember when the first homeschool book came out - I was so disappointed, so much in there was Protestant (Abeka, etc), so we just kept hobbling along doing our own thing, using OOp books and a few of the books being reprinted - a lot of it was very poor quality copies. I wanted Catholic materials because I know first hand how subtle some of this other can be - very innocent seeming information read indiscriminantly almost meant loss of faith for me as a teen - and none of the material was really anti-Catholic as much as just slightly in error. The Catholic point of view is not generally given in the public forum at all - even in supposedly Catholic schools (I went to a Jesuit institution and I know what I got there was no different than the secular institutions except that Mass was offered daily on campus at 10 PM at night for studying students and many of the Jesuits weren't sure themselves anymore - should they wear their collar?, etc.). I don't want to have to undo erroneous information with my little ones (by high school that is different). In high school, I want the supporting documentation to correct common errors so that I can give details to my dc - not just generalities with no specific evidence. I look to my Catholic vendors to help me here as I don't have the time to be a major researcher while I am tending my dc and household (and barely fulfilling my daily duty).
If I always go for the cheapest source, it isn't likely to be these small Catholic vendors and without business, they fold. They won't be around for any of us. When I started homeschooling, there were almost no Catholic vendors - I hunted for used books everywhere (most were out of print and being dumped as fast as possible - I found a lot at friends of the library book sales - if I hadn't picked them up, they may have ended up in the trash as we live in an area with small number of Catholics - our church libraries were being purged of all the good stuff and left with the questionable materials) and we didn't know if there would be any orthodox Catholic texts in English tomorrow.
If a Catholic vendor appeared on the scene - wow (we became conisseurs of catelogues as this was our only possibility for Catholic purchases). They were always little, small, family run businesses trying to reprint these treasures of the past that were being lost. We were thrilled at what they were doing - and I know I bought like mad. My dc deserved a beautifully bound book - that was a Catholic treasure. I didn't want them to think that only their Protestant friends got to use beautifully illustrated materials and professionally bound, materials that were meant to last. We went with Faith and Life at that time for the reason that it had beautiful artwork in it while still being organized and orthodox. Finally we could put aside those poorly copied, oop materials we'd been using (other than the Baltimore catechism). In religion, I had to have an organized text. Things were so confused, it was hard to know who was telling you the truth and who was woefully in error or trying to lead you astray. I certainly had not been taught anything really in terms of my faith. I didn't know about the Saints, couldn't pray a rosary, didn't know the first thing about doctrines, infallibility, etc. I didn't even know the ten commandments. I had to have something for me so I knew what to teach. I was determined that our dc were not going to be left to flounder in a sea of confusion as I had been - and I used every text and book (with solid teaching) that I could get my hands on trying to sort through the disaster which was left in the wake of so many years of lousy catechesis. I read the Bible - from my Protestant friends - Catholics at the time were just explaining it away. I'm not art and craft type - my eyes just don't work easily for that kind of thing - I cannot draw a straight line even with a ruler - so we did what we could. My very visual, artisitic dd suffered some (but that is part of being a Catholic, I guess) from my determination - but she knows her faith thanks to some of these few early people who supplied solid materials (even if they were ugly and poorly copied and put together loosely and designed more for classroom use). To me, even if I don't use Seton or Our Lady of the Rosary now - I will say that I will remember that they preserved some of these treasures for us, they stood firm and helped stem the tide so that the faith could still be found in this country.
Later, I was in a meeting where religion textbooks were being discussed - the diocese are purchasing from big, secular companies like Sadlier, etc. and having to fight with them to put in appropriate Catholic content. I'm sure they are cheaper, they are flashier, they have lots of folks that can travel, provide teacher training and teacher support material. But what about these other Catholic suppliers - you wouldn't have to fight with them about content. Their main and sometimes only market is Catholic homeschoolers - and we are a small group overall. The Protestant companies have markets well beyond the homeschooling community. I don't know about other parts of the country - but around here, the protestant homeschoolers either have backing from their local church or they split off and form their own church around their homeschooling. The protestant suppliers can break into the church Sunday school, private school market. Anyways what I am trying to say is that I try to consider all of this when making a decision about what to purchase. I do keep budgeting in mind (I have to), but I will pay a little more to support a Catholic vendor and if I am able I might be willing to pay a lot more for a really good product. I want to be able to make the sacrifice to support them. Of course, we do have to realistically consider our own means - but we need to keep both the financial and the spiritual values in mind.
I love CHC religion supplements - and many of these I can re-use along with the ideas, because it does not involve copying anything. I don't follow the plans exactly anyways and found them a bit hard to use with my son who raced through science in a month, not writing in the book (nightmare for me to figure out as he had no organization to it at all)and then we were doing our own experiments. I did like the reading comp questions as they really helped this child - and he wrote answers right on the sheet. I wish I could re-order those and the templates for the crafts. I don't think I'll be able to afford to re-purchase those 3 more times, so I'll just have to make my own templates and ask questions orally and let them write answers in sentences on seperate sheets of paper (still within copyright laws since I'm not copyying anything) but the reality is that we won't get quite as far as I won't be able to sit with each child every time and it is harder for the children. I'm not likely to get to as much of the hands on without someones templates. I may be enlisting my dh once more - he always makes the hands on patterns as I just cannot seem to do it without intense frustration. If something better and easier comes to my attention, I might shift but I want and like the Catholic flavor. My young dc are not likely to get that again from any schooling outside of home. Since I have so many and vision problems are prevalent, CHC has been especially helpful with larger print, bigger contrast and less things on a page. The vision problems also mean that my dc may be reading tons of stuff and missing a lot of the subtleties unless I make sure and teach/discuss that. When you are teaching 6 dc, doing therapy and can only focus on one thing at a time yourself (I have many of the same vision problems as my dc)then you really do need some sort of workbook type thing from time to time or you go nuts trying to figure out what to do with each child. I love CHC workbooks - they are simple, to the point and not excessively busy work. I hope that these do not become priced beyond my means as a workbook cannot be a workbook if you do not write in it. I have a child with visual memory problems - I cannot make him copy from one text to another a lot. I will have to switch if I am outpriced. I am really upset when worktexts are produced costing $50 or more. This is not a workbook price. I'll be looking for someone who has the older Saxon 6/5 for me to borrow so that I do not have to buy new $50 workbook, and test booklets for my next dc. My other option is to just skip 6/5 and go to 7/6. I'd rather see a seperate text with an optional workbook sold for a price. Those that don't need the workbook still have the benefit of the beautiful text (and this can be priced at $50 as it will be re-used many times) but then the workbook is there for folks like me who would happily purchase a new one for each child at $10 or so (more if it was a bigger worktext). I do not mind having a book and workbook seperate. Everything in one place does reduce clutter and time finding stuff - but if it becomes too expensive to use, then it doesn't do me any good.
One thing I did notice, copy priviledges to the family are given to A Year With God (at least in both my editions). Most of the same activities are in here as are in the religion supplements, so I could do it that way and still be within copyright laws. The only thing is that there is a bit more prep work for the parent in A Year with God - blowing up templates, etc. I'm pulling out all the relevant things from my CHC materials and organizing it in one notebook for future use with other dc. I really did like a lot of the stories that went along with Confession and First Communion practice. These don't need to be copied - just pulled out and stored for later use. It will be an organizational nightmare for me as this is not my strong point (or my dc) but perhaps this is just what God wants me to work on right now.
I know that CHC is not in any way trying to prevent families from making use of materials. I know they got burned with some of the illegal copying (and for a small company that is a harder loss to carry) and were not trying to make things difficult for families. I remember speaking with them when they first said things about copyright after being burned and they made suggestions to me for how to make things work, affordably. One suggestion was to use onion skin over questions. Does anyone know where you can get onion skin - or how it works? The other option I have used is to have my dc write lightly in pencil - and then I go back and erase. For Behold and See and some of their materials like that, this really isn't a bad option as there are not that many pages that really have questions on them (but some of my dc are so tense with written work that they are unable to write lightly). It is getting blurrier to me which items are intended as consumables and which are not. Is Behold and See a consumable text - I think somewhere that they said it was. However, there are only a couple of review pages per unit. The rest of the questions scattered throughout the book, my dc always did orally anyways.
I do remember telling CHC that I had re-used lesson plans. I didn't have dc write in them as I was making a notebook of what I wanted them to do and not following their plans precisely anyways. They weren't concerned as I was not copying anything. I paid maybe $20 for these plans. Later, as they added updates and had changed some things, I did order a new Second grade plan (and some of the others). These were much more expensive, but I tried writing in them and we cut and used the supplemental materials, etc. - the plans didn't help that much as far as record keeping as we never follow anything exactly, but the ready to use art projects were a blessing for me - a real blessing that I would gladly re-purchase year after year at a reasonable price (but not $40). I loved the memory gems - but want to use them with all - not just that dc in that grade. I did cut and laminate. Is it against the law to copy the back side so that I do not lose those gems? I hold all these laminated memory gems in a basket (by category) and then we can chose one to work on.
Now, I have the ideas and yes, maybe we'll do more of the notebook thing with the next (but this is really hard for me to manage, we'll see as I'm not artistic, most of my dc could hardly even cut with scissors in 2nd grade (they are mostly tearing, still). When we tried to do this kind of thing in the past - it just didn't get done because we all are frustrated by the simple art type stuff. But with CHC, it did get done and we liked it - because all the frustrating part like estimating the size of the template, drawing straight lines, etc. were done for us and all we had to do was cut and glue. Cutting was challenging enough. I could barely cut along the lines, yet alone my 8 yo. I guess it goes to show how individual all this is. Even looking at single sample pages doesn't let me know what will work for me. I need to see and touch it, experiment with it a bit with my dc (and if I have used it at all, it is not returnable and shouldn't be) so I rarely return things, even when there is a return policy. I have avoided buying the Pudewa writing program because I just couldn't risk that much money - yet everything I've heard makes it appealing. Well this year we are in a coop and the teacher will be using this. I'll get a feel for it. If it works for my younger dc, then I may actually invest in it after all these years of contemplating it. Sometimes this means that I have used things that didn't cost as much - and also turned out to be a waste. But I can at least make these work sometimes and the loss isn't as high per item - as long as I don't overbuy. One workbook was used to cut out pictures of things that start with a certain letter sound (I think it was a pretty sorry math book - but had great pictures to use). At the cheap price, it wasn't too bad a price for use as clip art even though it was a disaster as a math book. Workbooks that I don't use on a regular basis can be stored and pulled out when a dc has trouble with a concept that I have re-taught and now I want to see if they really got it. So I use it sporadically one page at a time over many years. At least it is used! I might not have bought it if I'd known - but at $5 or so, it isn't quite as huge a loss if I find some way to use it. The more expensive items are harder to swallow a mistaken purchase. I'd never buy a violin without having the teacher and child test it out - because the investment is so huge! I am beginning to realize that I have to be a bit more like this with more expensive curriculum.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 4:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Janet,
I'm still sifting through your post, but onion skin paper is a fancier type of tracing paper. You don't have to use onion skin to get the effects of tracing -- being translucent or see through. The name onion skin is used because it's very thin. REAL onion skin paper is made partially with cotton, so it's more expensive.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 5:07pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Janet,
I think you mean Julia Fogassey. And no, fifteen years ago, I didn't have a book and I wasn't homeschooling. I had one 2 year-old and was recovering from cancer.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 8:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth - Oh no, even in my corrected post I didn't get the name right. Yes, it was Julia Fogassey. I have her catologues so I never forget her company's name.  I'm sure glad to see this kind of stuff on the message board - it gives those of us isolated without many other like minded folks around us a chance to hash out ideas, etc. I wish I'd found it sooner - but at least I did find it. At some point, I just stopped looking at or for new stuff because we were just trying to keep from drowning. I am a great resource person, as I probably have a sample or have tried just about everything in my homeschooling experience. A lot of the books I bought for 50 cents at a friend of the library sale are now being reprinted. Friends of the Library dried up as a resource as I think I bought everything available in AL - plus I told my friends about it and what I didn't buy - they did.
Jenn - sorry my post was so long. I give you a lot of credit if you wade through the whole thing. I think the main point was simply that we need to weigh the intangible value of supporting a Catholic vendor as well. It is tougher for them as well as for Catholic homeschoolers, in general. I guess I have personal experience of the effect of going with the cheapest and easiest for you and how it makes it even harder to have a Catholic presence. Hope the summary helps and saves you time wading through my post - sorry it was so long.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Lavenderfields
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 06 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 400
|
| Posted: July 25 2006 at 10:22pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| Now, I don't see that about the younger plans...but I don't see anything in the catalog that says you must limit your use to one child in the family. It does say very clearly in the plans themselves though, that you may not copy anything whatsoever, which means that all the appendices would be useless with the next child, if you used all the coloring pages and blanks, etc. |
|
|
I can't seem to get the links to work, but go to CHC website, click on FAQ, and scroll down quite a way, you will find a whole section on their copyright laws. You will find it clearly says that you may not make a photocopy of anything in their books for siblings.
God Bless
Robynn
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 26 2006 at 4:38am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lavenderfields wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
| Now, I don't see that about the younger plans...but I don't see anything in the catalog that says you must limit your use to one child in the family. It does say very clearly in the plans themselves though, that you may not copy anything whatsoever, which means that all the appendices would be useless with the next child, if you used all the coloring pages and blanks, etc. |
|
|
I can't seem to get the links to work, but go to CHC website, click on FAQ, and scroll down quite a way, you will find a whole section on their copyright laws. You will find it clearly says that you may not make a photocopy of anything in their books for siblings.
God Bless
Robynn |
|
|
Thanks, Robynn. I did my "shopping" via catalog--you should see how ratty they all are--because I've spent so much time in bed or on the couch this pregnancy. I had reserved my online time to ordering (and the message board). Another lesson learned--dedicate a chunk of time to the massive (but absolutely beautiful) website. I guess we've moved from a day when we could assume everything you need to know is in the printed version.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: July 26 2006 at 8:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
ALmom wrote:
| Jenn - sorry my post was so long. I give you a lot of credit if you wade through the whole thing. I think the main point was simply that we need to weigh the intangible value of supporting a Catholic vendor as well. It is tougher for them as well as for Catholic homeschoolers, in general. I guess I have personal experience of the effect of going with the cheapest and easiest for you and how it makes it even harder to have a Catholic presence. Hope the summary helps and saves you time wading through my post - sorry it was so long. |
|
|
Oh, sweetie! I'm so sorry if it sounded like I was complaining about your post! I have a problem with lack of concentration, but your posts are always so meaty, that I love to wade through them. Don't apologize one bit! I just saw that question and knew I wouldn't remember to answer....
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: July 26 2006 at 8:21am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lavenderfields wrote:
| I can't seem to get the links to work, but go to CHC website, click on FAQ, and scroll down quite a way, you will find a whole section on their copyright laws. You will find it clearly says that you may not make a photocopy of anything in their books for siblings. |
|
|
Elizabeth, thanks for posting the info from CHC.
What I would like to know (I guess I'm playing devil's advocate) is how much room does a curriculum provider have to make such requirements? Are they enforceable? Do the copyright laws of US back this all up? I'm not suggesting copying workbooks or any such nature...just some of the curriculum providers make some extreme rules.
I guess I'm trying to understand how much difference the law is in curriculum and non-curriculum.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rebecca
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 30 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1898
|
| Posted: July 26 2006 at 9:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
What I would like to know (I guess I'm playing devil's advocate) is how much room does a curriculum provider have to make such requirements? Are they enforceable? Do the copyright laws of US back this all up? |
|
|
I am interested in this as well. These questions coupled with Alice's link about "fair use" of the Copyright laws (specifically for teaching) raise a lot of questions in my mind. I would never copy a workbook but what about Elizabeth's example of copying the back page of LSFLF? Are we covered under fair use for this example or are we really obligated to purchase a set of these books for each child? I know that CHC wants us to purchase them again but are we obligated under law to do so?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 26 2006 at 9:21am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm with you Rebecca.
For that matter, if we choose not to write in the lesson plans(and to adapt ideas from the appendices but not use the reproducible pages), I don't think it's illegal to use them again. I think it's prudent. If we use the example on the webpage of going into a store and buying a book, well then, I buy lots of books and I don't buy them again when I re-read them; I re-read the same book. As a matter of fact, that's why I bought it in the first place. I also loan books...but that's another story.
Personally, the whole issue is taking up way too much brain space and I am wondering why I bought any of it to start with. I didn't even know it existed a year ago...
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Karen T
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 927
|
| Posted: July 26 2006 at 3:24pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Bookswithtea wrote:
I like a lot of what CHC offers and I have recommended them publicly and privately, many times. Initially, I didn't have a problem with the idea of CHC encouraging folks to buy a new LP for each child. The company was small, their offerings were tiny, and what they had available was pretty inexpensive.
$20 was what I paid for my first copy of the 1st grade lesson plans. I paid almost $50 for the 4th grade lesson plans. That's a substantial hit to repurchase when one has a large family to consider. I've since paid $50 for several CHC items, and I haven't always found the items as user friendly as I would have liked.
|
|
|
I do not knowingly violate copyrights but I did not know this about the lesson plans. I only have 2 of them, the Kindergarten and the Middle school plans. Neither have anything consumable in them, so I figured it was OK to use for more than one child. If it's not, how can it be OK to sell it used, or even give it away when you're done?
I don't make copies of anything in the lesson plans.
OK, i just rechecked each of them, and I do see now that the kindy plans could be considered consumable b/c there are lines where you check off each thing, etc. however, I've never used them like that, I just browse them for ideas of what to cover, etc.
In the middle school plans book, it specifically says you can make photocopies of anything within one family, but copying for the purpose of reselling is prohibited.
I assume this means like software, you can re-sell it, but then you erase it from your hard drive; you don't continue using it.
I guess as far as the cost goes for repurchasing lesson plans, the theory is that you've bought all the other books needed which can be re-used, and if you're doing a straight CHC curriculum, the new lesson plan each year for the next child is all that you'd need. In reality, though, I think most of us pick and choose parts of this and parts of that one year, and then the following year or the next child, we may re-use some things and try new ones.
I've certainly bought quite a few things that I ended up not using, and not once have i considered returning to where I bought it. not b/c I couldn't (usually) but some I hang onto in case a different child might use it, or some I just list on cathswap, etc. I figure the cost of return postage plus possible re-stocking fee isn't worth it. Of course, postage for shipping a sold item figures too but I think you can make up a lot of the original cost if your material is in very good condition.
Karen
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Karen T
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 927
|
| Posted: July 26 2006 at 3:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
KellyJ wrote:
Janet, I noticed an option recently on CHC's site -- a group copyright for the syllabi. Search for copyright on the site, and then select View All. There you will see the group copyrights available.
K: $54.95
1st: $84.95
2nd: $100
3rd: $120
4th: $125
Middle School Yrs: $150
Catholic Garden of Puzzles: $25
A Year With God: $150
Those were the ones I've seen and corresponding group copyright prices.
KellyJ |
|
|
The Middle school, Cath. Garden of Puzzles and AYWG all have copyright privileges for the immediate family included in the base price, according to the catalog and my copies of each. Those higher prices are for groups, like a co-op. I don't know about the others listed.
Karen
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Curriculum Returning and Refunding
