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mjsmom73
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Does anyone have recommendations for a good grammar curriculum for a 3rd grader? We have been using Language of God for Little Folks from Catholic Heritage Curricula but I am thinking that we might need a bit more to help cement the basics.
Shurley English looks like it could be a good option but I am not too familiar with it.
I have also looked a MCT Language Arts but it is too expensive.
What has (or has not) worked for you?
Thank you in advance. 
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SallyT
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Here's what I haven't used, but am contemplating for next year (for both 4th and 5th grades, but would work for 3rd):
Memoria Press's new English Grammar Recitation (just the book with the memory work, NOT any of the other materials) + copywork/dictation.
I have found that workbook work, while it's helpful in some ways, at least to start the conversation about things like parts of speech, has not thus far really sunk in. I like those Language of God workbooks and have used them last year and this, but I find that my kids who have used them know very little more about grammar now, in May, than they did last fall. I expect things like this to take years to sink in; at the same time, I can't see that doing exercises necessarily nails home the larger idea that the exercises represent. I'd rather spend the time on the larger idea and seeing it applied in real writing.
My older children (9th grade and college sophomore) who did no formal grammar but a lot of reading, copywork and writing at this stage, *instinctively* know a lot about grammar and use it mostly correctly -- they're both quite strong writers -- but they can't necessarily articulate *why* something should be written a certain way. Copywork in and of itself is a very complete language-arts "program," in that children really do internalize good written language and spelling, but I want my youngers to know the actual rules which govern our language and keep it in order. My 9th/soon-to-be-10th-grader is backtracking to learn a lot of rules, plus he is absorbing a lot of grammatical knowledge via German, and I'd like for the rising 4th and 5th graders to have more formal schemata for understanding the workings of their language by the time they enter the high-school years.
So I want to try grammar memory work, a la the MP program, in tandem with copywork/dictation as a way to see the rules in action. This isn't a recommendation, because I haven't done it yet, but it's what I want to try: simple, inexpensive, and cutting to the chase I want to cut to.
Sally
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anitamarie
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I've really liked the First Language Lessons series. It's very good, covers a wide variety of skills, and copywork, narration, dictation, and poetry memorization are built in to it. It comes in book form or as e-books. It's open and go with very little prep. It also has supplemental lessons on dictionary skills , oral usage, and letter writing.
Good luck with your decision.
Anita
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mjsmom73
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Sally and Anita,
Thank you both for your great suggestions. They both would be excellent options and are not too expensive (a huge plus right now). I am afraid the curricula costs are adding up this year.  I want something solid but I don't feel that means it should be really expensive. Thank you both for sharing your experience and input. I really appreciate it.
Blessings,
Jamie
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CrunchyMom
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I really like Jen's posts summarizing their (Charlotte Mason) approach to language arts.
I like that while it largely relies on the reading, writing, and copywork (and I would add foreign language study--including Latin, though this isn't always categorized as "language arts") there are also three years of formal English grammar applied.
To me, this is a good balance with most energy spent building instincts, as Sally said, but including a plan to learn the "whys" as well.
I did not use a formal grammar program with my third grader this year, though, he did start Latin and goes to a class for German, both of which include a good bit of grammar study.
Really, whatever program you use, I think it would be normal for the concepts to not be "cemented" by third grade.
I plan to do a more formal study of grammar his fifth grade year and again in middle school and high school.
Sally, I really like the grammar "catechism" you linked from Memoria. It seems that would be really good to use in conjunction with Grammarland, perhaps in a first term, and then moving on to diagramming in the second. I always LOVED diagramming sentences  
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SallyT
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I like the look of it, too, Lindsay. I hadn't thought about using it with Grammar-land (which we read last year), but that's a great idea!
And basically I like the CM approach to grammar, particularly as it de-emphasizes the"drill and kill" methodology, though I've opted to integrate formal grammar *gently* every year, rather than having three touchpoint years. We don't do Latin (and when my oldest did do Latin, which she studied all through high school, her first co-op teacher remarked that it was very hard to teach Latin grammar to people without a firm grasp on English grammar. Which is why . . . but this is probably to a great extent a chicken-egg question).
Also, I just think grammar is interesting. It's "The Way Things Work" of our language, and to me, three widely-spaced years isn't enough -- not because it's an inadequate amount of preparation to be a good practitioner of written language, because that's clearly not the case, but because I just think the workings of language are as interesting as science or geography or anything else we study every year.
We have also used Mary Daly's diagramming materials from Ye Hedge School and liked them a lot. I am thinking that with this duo I'll do a year of grammar memory work/copywork/dictation with no other formal grammar component, and then move into a diagramming study in our 5th/6th grade year (i.e. 2014-15). I'm not a classical purist any more than I'm a CM purist, but the structure and logic of diagramming seems right on for those middle school/"dialectical stage" years.
Sally
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Maryan
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I have friends that love Shurley - I have not tried it.
We don't do grammar every year, but I'll second Anita's recommendation -- we like First Language Lessons too. In addition to everything that Anita mentioned, she also has the kids memorize the definitions (repeatedly) and prepositions.
We had the same issue with Language of God. They did the workbook pages perfectly, but didn't seem to know grammar. I think my kids are auditory learners and need me talking and working with them throughout the lesson which FLL does.
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pumpkinmom
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I really like Jen's posts summarizing their (Charlotte Mason) approach to language arts.
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 I second this. We will be moving to this approach starting in July. I did some tweaking to make it fit my kids (and me). I'm really looking forward to this. We have used CHC program every year prior and I just can't do it another year. It was a complete waste with my third grader this year. The concepts were beyond his reach. If I were to do it again I would have just done primary language lessons (hillside's version) or Lighted Lanterns from Cascia books.
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SallyT
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Ooh, that Lighted Lanterns program does look beautiful! I had forgotten about it, but I think I'll take another look before I really decide. I was thinking my two youngest had sort of aged out of it, but I think I'll revisit it. Thanks!
My older kids really really really did not like PLL/ILL, back in the day -- maybe because they'd already been to school, and developed a healthy dose of "everything must have *attitude,* including us." The lessons struck them as way too old-fashioned and "twee," and I wound up selling our copies, which were pre-the HIllside version anyway. I also really do like basic, structural grammar: nouns, verbs, etc, and how they function in a sentence. Littles don't need that so much, but by third grade, I really wanted my kids to be at least starting to take on that knowledge. Otherwise, *I* really liked PLL/ILL . . . but also hadn't thought about using them again.
Sally
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pumpkinmom
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SallyT wrote:
Ooh, that Lighted Lanterns program does look beautiful! I had forgotten about it, but I think I'll take another look before I really decide. I was thinking my two youngest had sort of aged out of it, but I think I'll revisit it. Thanks!
My older kids really really really did not like PLL/ILL, back in the day -- maybe because they'd already been to school, and developed a healthy dose of "everything must have *attitude,* including us." The lessons struck them as way too old-fashioned and "twee," and I wound up selling our copies, which were pre-the HIllside version anyway. I also really do like basic, structural grammar: nouns, verbs, etc, and how they function in a sentence. Littles don't need that so much, but by third grade, I really wanted my kids to be at least starting to take on that knowledge. Otherwise, *I* really liked PLL/ILL . . . but also hadn't thought about using them again.
Sally |
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We didn't like the original PLL/ILL either. It was all the old-fashioned stuff that I disliked. The Hillside edition is much better! I thought mine would be too old for the Lighted Lanterns too, but looking at the samples I think it will be fine for him. My 8 year old just didn't pick up much grammar or spelling this year so we are really almost at the same level where we started this year. I have it ordered and can't wait to get it. I couldn't decided on that or ILL from hillside, so I got both. 
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Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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CrunchyMom
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SallyT wrote:
| We don't do Latin (and when my oldest did do Latin, which she studied all through high school, her first co-op teacher remarked that it was very hard to teach Latin grammar to people without a firm grasp on English grammar. Which is why . . . but this is probably to a great extent a chicken-egg question). |
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I think you are right. I would imagine that it would be hard to go at the pace of a high school course without understanding basic grammar, but if you are teaching Latin to a third grader, the curriculum (at least what we've used, Getting Started with Latin, which moves very slowly intentionally) doesn't assume you know, so it is introducing the concepts. By the end of the book, my third grader is identifying subjects, verbs, direct objects, and indirect objects, which I figure is pretty good for a nine year old  It certainly provides regular opportunity to talk about the parts of speech.
I do think that the memory work is something I might try to include lightly this fall. My son does have a hard time remembering some concepts like "being verbs," and simple rote memorization is likely an effective way to solidify the vocabulary needed to communicate grammar effectively. It seems that the Grammar Section of Living Memory by Andrew Campbell (which I own) looks to be pretty much the first chapter of the book you linked, so I wouldn't buy the separate book except that I am curious what the First Form Latin and subsequent chapters look like since there are no samples of those, only of the English. I'm wondering if those would be good to use independently of their Latin curriculum with what we are using next year (Visual Latin) or if they would be too much.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SallyT
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Hm, maybe I need to revisit Hillside's ILL, too. Just when I thought I had next year all sewn up . . . :)
Sally
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SallyT
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I'm sorry, I think I've really hijacked the original poster's thread here! But clearly there are many options which might work for a third grader . . .
Sally
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Mackfam
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mjsmom73 wrote:
Does anyone have recommendations for a good grammar curriculum for a 3rd grader?
What has (or has not) worked for you? |
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Thanks for the question, mjsmom, and WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!!!
For a 3rd grader:
Copywork from excellent living literature that they may be reading independently, or that you may be reading aloud.
And that's it!
Really.
Then, next year, for 4th grade, start some simple dictation exercises and begin to introduce a few simple grammar ideas - subject/verb of the sentence, a few of the parts of speech. Build from there.
You really don't need a lot of (any) expensive curriculums to convey solid grammar concepts. My 11th grader has followed a very simple and efficient language arts approach (outlined in the language arts series that Lindsay linked above). She just took the ACT and she scored very highly in the English grammar and mechanics section. I credit good literature, lots of reading and narrating, and dictation lessons which we kept consistent, short and sweet over the years. No workbooks, busywork, or curriculums.
So...back to your 3rd grader!
1) I would enjoy the year by building in some fantastic literature choices that are age/reading level appropriate for him/her. This allows you to really invest time in reading experiences in 3rd grade.
2) Enjoy wonderful narrations from this literature.
3) Choose copywork from your literary choices.
That's it! Simple. Extremely efficient. And the only reason I mentioned my dd's ACT experience is to show you that this approach really does work and it will even translate on a standardized test.
Need some ideas to jump start your literary choices? If you're unsure what to choose, or how to pull copywork choices from the literature you choose, I highly recommend the Bravewriter series of guides that coordinate with literature pieces. The series are divided up by age group and your 3rd grader would probably fall somewhere toward the end of The Wand series and the beginning of The Arrow.
You can subscribe, but I just scroll through the already published issues and purchase one or two book guides that I know we'll be reading from that year. It's a great way to ease into this way of approaching language arts and can give a mom a good guide to follow if she isn't sure about teaching a grammar concept, or how to approach copywork or dictation based on a book a child is reading.
And do be sure to check out all the great posts here with advice, resources and how-to on the subject of dictation as a way to convey grammar and spelling skills.
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mjsmom73
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Thank you all for the warm welcome and for all of your wonderful ideas and advice. I really appreciate all of the wonderful options that have been offered.
At this point, I am leaning toward using First Language Lessons 3 (minus the narration portion) along with Grammar-land as a fun supplement. As much as I think the Lighted Lanterns curriculum looks beautiful, I think since we are going to try a unit study approach this year (tying history, literature, art, and music together), we will develop our own narrations based on what she is reading that ties into the historical period.
I already have the Writing With Ease Strong Fundamentals book from our first year homeschooling. I think I will use that as my guide to develop my own narrations/dictations/copwork. It makes more sense at this point to use the materials she is actually reading to develop the narrations, dictation, and copywork we will use.
She is very artistic so we splurged on "Artistic Pursuits Book 2." I wanted to tie it into the history we are studying this year. We are using the "From Sea to Shining Sea" text from Catholic Textbook Project for history. For literature, I will be bringing in age appropriate literature that fits within the historical periods being studied at the time. She is actually a very good reader and I think she will like the history text we have decided to use this year. We will be studying the music that fits the time periods, as well.
I will also keep checking out the previous posts to further refine my plan as needed.
Blessings, Jamie
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AmandaV
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Here are some neat worksheets related to Grammarland. They are not typical worksheets, more the suggested exercises from the book typed up to make them easier to do. My son has read it twice, basically unassigned for pleasure, and retained a great deal and really likes the parts of speech. I found it through Easy Peasy Homeschool ( I think she has it for 5th or 8th grade? ) and he sat there and did 3 or 4 pages all at once - and this is a kid who doesn't like writing.. so its appealing, I think mostly because he really enjoys the book.
We only do a little bit of KISS grammar right now (3rd grade, but started with it in 2nd), but he doesn't mind it really, because he always thinks of (and quotes!) Mr. Noun and The Judge, etc..
I second the suggestion to read Jen's language arts series, and see if you think you can do it without a curriculum. We have primary language lessons, but we have not used it three times a week as scheduled. Its been more a jumping off point and we use it occasionally. But mostly its longer selections of copywork from good literature, our history, a prayer or psalm once a week, a verse of a seasonal hymn we are learning together, or a poem my son picks. We began dictation using PLL, as well as Spelling Wisdom this year, but my son is youngish for his grade so that was late in the year. We used studied dictation for this age. We'll continue to stretch him using these same techniques for next year.
Edited to add: Oh, here are some more! I have not looked at or used these though, so I can't recommend. :)
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Amanda
wife since 6/03, Mom to son 7/04, daughter 2/06, twin sons 6/08 and son 7/11, son 1/2014
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CrunchyMom
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Those worksheets look terrific! Definitely bookmarking them for later
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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mjsmom73
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I am also planning on using the worksheets to go with Grammarland. They look great. We will be using All About Spelling also.
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greengables
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O.K. I can see that I posted a spelling question in the wrong location AND now I don't know where to put it???? SORRY!
My original post was "What Do You Do For Spelling" in Living Learning. Well, I just did a spelling search which directed me to Language Arts Come Alive and Irealized that I should have put my question here!
Forgive the below attempt to quote some of the posts here, but here goes(One day I will learn to do quotes and double quotes as you ladies do!!! : {Edited by the quoting fairy...adding quotes for you Jill! }
mjsmom73 wrote:
Does anyone have recommendations for a good grammar curriculum for a 3rd grader?
What has (or has not) worked for you? |
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THEN Jen replied:
Mackfam wrote:
Thanks for the question, mjsmom, and WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!!!
For a 3rd grader:
Copywork from excellent living literature that they may be reading independently, or that you may be reading aloud.
And that's it!
Really.
Then, next year, for 4th grade, start some simple dictation exercises and begin to introduce a few simple grammar ideas - subject/verb of the sentence, a few of the parts of speech. Build from there.
You really don't need a lot of (any) expensive curriculums to convey solid grammar concepts. My 11th grader has followed a very simple and efficient language arts approach (outlined in the language arts series that Lindsay linked above). She just took the ACT and she scored very highly in the English grammar and mechanics section. I credit good literature, lots of reading and narrating, and dictation lessons which we kept consistent, short and sweet over the years. No workbooks, busywork, or curriculums.
So...back to your 3rd grader!
1) I would enjoy the year by building in some fantastic literature choices that are age/reading level appropriate for him/her. This allows you to really invest time in reading experiences in 3rd grade.
2) Enjoy wonderful narrations from this literature.
3) Choose copywork from your literary choices.
That's it! Simple. Extremely efficient. And the only reason I mentioned my dd's ACT experience is to show you that this approach really does work and it will even translate on a standardized test. |
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So.....my question is.......Do I need a formal spelling program? Jen........ I think I probably asked you that last year and here I go again!!! I think I 'read' that you do not use any spelling program? Is that correct? If I am consistent with the narration/copy/dictation.... is a separate spelling curriculum necessary?
Also, Has anyone here used "Dictation Day By Day"?
Thanks so much,
Jill
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Greengables - wife to best friend and mother to 11 blessings on earth
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Mackfam
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greengables wrote:
| Forgive the below attempt to quote some of the posts here, but here goes(One day I will learn to do quotes and double quotes as you ladies do!!! |
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Maybe I can help. There are actually two ways to do this - one way uses the *quote* button within a post, and another way just involves you manually typing the special (and very easy) symbols that tell the board that you want to make a quote box around something.
Using the quote button
First, go to the post you want to quote. Next, look up in the top right corner of the post to find the button that says, "quote." Click it. The page will change, and you will see the text of that post in the post-ing box, and at the beginning you will see [QUOTE =....SOMEONE'S USERNAME] and then their post, followed by [ /QUOTE]. (Note: There are spaces in my examples. If I hadn't put spaces there, the forum would have interpreted that as me trying to quote...so you'll have to take out any spaces for this to work.)
Manually typing the code...
Within the post-ing box, as you're typing, just type in the following:
[QUOTE =....SOMEONE'S USERNAME] (remember, you'll have to remove the space I put in between the word "QUOTE' and the = sign for this to work). Then, you can just copy and paste any text you want in there. To end the quote, you need to type:
[ /QUOTE] (remember again, to remove the space between [ and /)
And that's it! Those are the two ways to quote someone and add the yellow box that sets a quote apart in a post. It really does help read-ability within a post!
greengables wrote:
| So.....my question is.......Do I need a formal spelling program? |
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Just to be clear: Making use of dictation lessons IS a formal spelling program. But, I think I know what you mean...you meant, "Do I need a spelling curriculum?" And the answer is, no. You don't need one. Now, you may decide in prudence that it's the best fit for your family...but it isn't a NEED.
greengables wrote:
| Jen........ I think I probably asked you that last year and here I go again!!! |
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No problem!
greengables wrote:
| I think I 'read' that you do not use any spelling program? Is that correct? |
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Well..again...semantics, buuuut...I do make use of a spelling program: dictation. But, no, I don't use a curriculum. The only language arts "curriculum" I use in our 12 years of home ed is Winston Grammar, and I use it BECAUSE it fits SO WELL within a dictation lesson! And I only use Winston for one grade in late elementary, one grade in middle school, and one grade in high school. I don't have extra lang. arts programs going on here - just copywork for penmanship, narrations for writing preparation and then written narrations/freewrites as their writing, and dictation folds in spelling and grammar. It's simple, not to be mistaken with easy, because it's also rigorous and VERY efficient!
greengables wrote:
| If I am consistent with the narration/copy/dictation.... is a separate spelling curriculum necessary? |
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No. It isn't. And this really isn't all that drastic if you think of it within a historical context. I mean, it's only within the last hundred or so years that separate curriculums have been used to convey things like spelling and grammar and penmanship. Historically speaking, dictation has been the most effective and proven method for teaching these language arts skills. So yep, they work...and work well. But the KEY here is slow and steady and consistent. They work over time. You can't expect to try to quantitatively measure within a year even, and expect dramatic results. But over the long haul, it's proven.
By 2nd grade, it was clear that my Sarah (rising senior this year) was NOT a natural speller, and had dyslexic issues (I'll call them issues because they were classic looking indicators, but I never had her formally tested...so I'm just going to say that I saw the problems she was having, and they looked like dyslexia to me.) I tried a couple of "programs" at first, because I thought I should, but they were overwhelming for her, didn't yield ANY fruit in terms of any kind of retention, only highlighted (to her especially) that she couldn't spell naturally, and were invariably a burden to me because it was one.more.thing to have to slog through and prepare for during the day. It was a burden for me, not helping with spelling, and undercutting the little bit of learning confidence Sarah had. I took a deep breath and just decided I wasn't going to turn back - I was going to make use of all of CM's language arts methods, as part of a balanced whole. And I did. It was a breath of fresh air! And I started seeing some spelling improvement within a year, more each year following, and by late middle school I could see amazing fruit from our simple but efficient efforts. Sarah noticed the transformation, too.
Anyway, here we are, years later, she's about to graduate, and her spelling, grammar and vocabulary are great. And all we did was stick with good 'ol dictations, 4x a week --> study one day, write the next, take a break for a day, study a new selection, write it the next. As simple as that! My other kids are following this same pattern, and I continue to see good results.
Hope this helps answer your questions, Jill!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Grammar Curriculum for 3rd Grader
