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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 7:51am | IP Logged
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In the Potager Thread, it looks like most of us are using raised beds. We really like using Mel's Mix from Square Foot Gardening, but it is VERY pricey over a large space.
We just saw Back to Eden, which I highly recommend. The gardener featured has developed a method that seems to me something like a cross between lasagna gardening and Ruth Stout's method. It uses wood chips as the top layer. However, even though it is a no-till method, it is shown using traditional row methods.
I know that *somewhere* in the crazy long potager thread, Jen mentioned using her own variation of lasagna gardening, and I was wondering if others would share their experiences as well.
One thing that appeals to us about the Back to Eden concept (as well as Ruth Stout's methods) is little watering because the layer of wood chips on top keep the soil moist. It seems, given the success many have with lasagna gardening, the technique would transfer to raised beds well enough. Gardening, in some ways, is just one big lifelong experiment  , but I was hoping to get some input to help me think this through.
Regardless, I HIGHLY recommend the film. It is a little long, and the Evangelical language can be a **smidge** bit grating at times, but it makes a ton of sense to me and rings true with both my limited experiences gardening as well as my personal philosophies regarding health and sustainability. It is absolutely safe to watch with the family, though, and while the younger crew fell asleep, ds7 was intrigued and inspired.
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Lindsay
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Mackfam
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 8:13am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
We just saw Back to Eden, which I highly recommend. The gardener featured has developed a method that seems to me something like a cross between lasagna gardening and Ruth Stout's method. It uses wood chips as the top layer. However, even though it is a no-till method, it is shown using traditional row methods.
I know that *somewhere* in the crazy long potager thread, Jen mentioned using her own variation of lasagna gardening |
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I, too, highly recommend the film! It's very, very interesting! This is what we're doing this year in our newer gardens. We've layered newspaper, compost, screened topsoil, more compost, and now we're waiting for a load of wood chips to be dropped off.
IN A NUTSHELL -- Pulling from my notes:
Back to Eden Gardening
3 - 6 sheets of newspaper
2 - 3" of humus, soil, screened compost
2 - 3" of wood chips -- KEEP DIRT COVERED AT ALL TIMES!
(May need nitrogen fertilizer the first year until the wood chips begin breaking down -- blood meal)
Add wood chips every few years to rebuild to desired depth
That's a total of 4 - 6"
Lasagna Gardening
4 - 6" layers of 4(brown/carbon):1(green/nitrogen) ratio
For layering: use newspaper, leaves, pine needles, wood chips, leaves, grass clippings
For baking: Cover with black agricultural grade plastic, bricks at corners, bake for 6 weeks and you're ready for planting
A total of 18 - 24" deep
Our version
8 - 10 layers of newspaper (for our invasive bermuda weeds)
5" of a mixture of screened topsoil and compost
4 - 5" of wood chips - DIRT COVERED
Screened chicken compost to layer
Bloodmeal as needed for the first couple of years to add nitrogen
Our garden boxes are 10" deep
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Jen Mackintosh
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stellamaris
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 8:27am | IP Logged
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One thing I read about years ago but haven't tried yet is the idea of using a blender to make "instant compost". You put in vegetable-based scraps, add a bit of water, and blender, then water your garden with this mix. The idea is that the pureeing of the vegetable material causing a very quick composting to occur.
Just wondering if anyone has tried anything like this?
I did use a lasagna garden approach to my (very!) little raised beds here. I didn't add the black plastic cover to raise heat, but I did set the beds up in the fall so they had all fall and winter to decompose. It really worked well, even though I only had enough material to make about a 12"-16" deep bed. I used grass clippings, horse manure, composted lawn clippings and weeds, and some shredded paper. My soil here is pure sand, but the soil in my beds is rich and dark--real dirt!!! 
Jen, did you use regular newspaper with print? I was a little hesitant about chemicals in the ink, but maybe that's not a problem? It would be great to just lay down a thick layer of used newspapers!
I'll be gone most of the summer this year, so I'm only planting some lettuce and peas now, along with my few perennial herbs. I think I'll layer on a few more layers after I harvest the lettuce so the beds will be ready for a fall planting.
Looking forward to having a bit of time to watch that movie, Lindsay! I saw the first part and it looked as if it was filmed in the Puget Sound area...my hometown!  So I'm hooked, but got to get about something productive now!!!
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 8:40am | IP Logged
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Thanks, Jen. That is extremely helpful!
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 10:51am | IP Logged
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newsprint is a soy based ink, not sure what other chemicals but it's my understanding that it's a "safe" ink.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 10:56am | IP Logged
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I can't wrap my mind around this for this area.. that top layer is good for retaining water.. but it also retains cold and with our short season we need the soil to warm faster... I think  Let me introduce myself.. the gardener who doesn't know anything.. I just keep guessing  I've read books about it but I just haven't been able to create some cohesion in my head about it. 
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 11:22am | IP Logged
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Jen had shared Back to Eden with me before, and I found the FAQ section quite helpful. Can I just say if something requires me to watch a video I rarely have time to see it?
I'd love to have some info in writing. Hoping some day there will be a pamphlet or book. I'm all about books, don't-you-know? 
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 11:26am | IP Logged
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I don't know if I'll get to a potager, and I find I neglect the garden boxes through winter. I have good intentions to compost and layer, and did do a bit of lasagna gardening/Ruth Stout/Square Foot all combined. We are replacing boxes this year, and will probably be doing Mel's Mix again, but our gardens are small.
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Aagot
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 5:14pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the link to Back to Eden!
Wow! I am so glad I took the time I don't have to watch that. Hoping I can pull this off.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: March 19 2012 at 9:28pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
| I'd love to have some info in writing. Hoping some day there will be a pamphlet or book. I'm all about books, don't-you-know? |
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I find myself wishing for this, too. 
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Jen Mackintosh
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 20 2012 at 8:07am | IP Logged
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JodieLyn wrote:
| I can't wrap my mind around this for this area.. that top layer is good for retaining water.. but it also retains cold and with our short season we need the soil to warm faster... I think Let me introduce myself.. the gardener who doesn't know anything.. I just keep guessing I've read books about it but I just haven't been able to create some cohesion in my head about it. |
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I don't think that the top layer of woodchips would retain cold for you. In some ways, the chips would retain the heat, maybe even helping absorb it much like black plastic used for warming the soil does. Also, it is, in some respects, making your garden one big compost pile, with the chips decomposing. The chemical action actually generates warmth.
If you watch the movie, you can see how digging into a large pile of woodchips actually produces steam. We've experienced that in our yard, too, with the chips we have from the tree that was taken out.
Without being anything like an expert myself and having zero gardening experience outside of zones 6-7, I don't think it would make your soil colder--I think it might even do the opposite.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: March 20 2012 at 11:34am | IP Logged
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Actually, if you put down the wood chips when the soil is still quite cool and too moist it can be counter productive- at least in our limited experience (high mountains, cold prairies). We wait until the soil is very warmed up, not so soggy, and then nicely moist before applying any type of mulch layer.
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CrunchyMom
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Kristie 4 wrote:
| Actually, if you put down the wood chips when the soil is still quite cool and too moist it can be counter productive- at least in our limited experience (high mountains, cold prairies). We wait until the soil is very warmed up, not so soggy, and then nicely moist before applying any type of mulch layer. |
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This method is sort of a "permanent" mulch layer. As laid out in the video, it looks like, over time, it regulates moisture in that when it rains a lot, the chips displace the water, keeping things from being over watered.
So, in your experience, would that be true long term or only when initially putting it down?
Also, they make a point that the woodchips are not all big ones like when you buy mulch for landscaping. Rather, there are multiple sizes in varying stages of decay, intended to ammend the soil over time in addition to being a mulching layer for moisture retention.
Anyway, I'm only guessing at stuff based on what claims the movie made. We are very close to where the family in PA had their experimental garden, so climate wouldn't be an issue for us.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 20 2012 at 12:29pm | IP Logged
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think of it as insulation.. it keeps the exchange between the two sides from happening as readily. So when the ground is frozen, it does take longer for it to warm up under the insulation (mulch).
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| Posted: March 20 2012 at 12:29pm | IP Logged
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It probably makes a big difference that it is permanent- I think that we have just lived with such teeny tiny growing seasons that we like to have our raised beds up and open so they can warm up quickly
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| Posted: March 20 2012 at 12:41pm | IP Logged
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Looked it up and my book on cold-climate gardening specifically mentions that the no-till methods like the "Stout method" don't work well in cold climates.
If the ground can't get warm enough the seeds just rot in the ground without sprouting (for instance tomatoes need minimum soil temp of 70* to sprout they didn't sprout even in my cold frame.. I'm needing to start the seeds inside.)
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oh and apparently mulch also causes problems with the first light freezes.. without mulch the soil will give off enough warmth to protect the plants while if they're mulched the mulch holds in the heat and the plants may freeze.
but they also say that light mulch after the plants are established during the mid-summer is good.. but they say soemthing like a light layer of straw.. it's so windy here that I can't imagine something like that staying put 
see this is my problem.. I know some of the reasons for doing something or not doing it.. it's figuring out our area with all the little differences that drives me crazy.
The one thing I've done is followed the spacing for intensive gardening.. that lets the plants themselves use up the space and crowd out the weeds.. not entirely but it helps.. so that's something.
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CrunchyMom
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I usually start tomatoes, basil and peppers indoors, even in my warmer climate.
Something you might consider looking into, Jodie, is Winter Sowing. You use little containers, like a milk jug, to make miniature green houses. There are lots of discussions from different climates using it on the Garden Web fora. Still not sure if it would be best in a colder climate for tender annuals. This is my first year trying it, but it seems to be going really well! It is lower maintenance than my regular seed starting methods (in doors with growing lights). I plan to try it with more of my veggies next year. My biggest trial has been the one year old dumping my little sprouted sweeties
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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yeah I just got my seeds planted yesterday.. now to see if we can keep the littles out.. I have no where for things to be.. at this point they're on the table in the living room. I got the tiny little disks for starting seeds with the tray with the clear lid so like a mini greenhouse.. they'll only be good for a short time.. but condensed space for starting seeds.. then I'll transplant to larger containers and the more cold hardy plants can go into the cold frames.. the tomatoes and peppers would need to stay inside a bit longer yet. So hopefully they won't take too much more space.
Figuring most of them for 3 weeks inside and then 6 weeks in the cold frame.. and the opposite for the tomatoes and peppers.. 6 weeks inside and 3 weeks in the cold frame.. and then we should be ready to plant in the garden end of May.
Pretty weird.. planted seeds yesterday, couple of inches of snow today.
What I'd like to do is get some plastic over the garden to heat it up faster and kill off weeds (sprout 'em and cook 'em under the plastic).
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stellamaris
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| Posted: March 27 2012 at 7:27am | IP Logged
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Finally (!) got a bit of time to watch the Back to Eden video. I really enjoyed it! What a beautiful and inspiring garden, and I love that he gave the glory to God.
I would warn gardeners in other climates, though, that Washington has a wonderful climate for gardening. Even Sequim (where he gardened in the film) has a temperate climate year-round, although very little rain. The soil is slightly acidic there. Cooler weather crops do very well all summer long most years. I have found the small amount of gardening I have done in the East a lot more challenging.
I came across a few short (9-10 min) clips on composting I found informative. They are here. I especially found the list of what to compost helpful. I'd never thought about composting dryer lint!
Also, recently I was in Jamestown, Virginia and noticed they had a garden all covered with sticks. I asked about that, and she said it was to keep out chickens. Also, she told me that she used seashells in the bottom of the hole she planted seedlings in to keep out moles. I thought that was a great idea! I was wondering if you plant from seed if you could just dig in a ring of shells around your garden area. I guess they little guys don't like getting all scratched up.
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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4Real Forums : Our Lady's Loom, Larder, and Laundry
Topic: Gardening: Soil
