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Leonie
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The first is an article on natural learning -
Natural Learning
And here is a blog entry talking about unschooling - is it too unrealistic? Can we do classical education AND unschooling?
Exploring Unschooling
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Willa
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I saw that blog post a few days ago.. one of the commenters could have been me (wasn't, but could have been). I am trying to blend the two and I'm not quite sure how it's working!!?
The other day I was thinking about the Greek concept of "paideia" which refers to the enculturation of the "whole child" -- bringing him up in the worldview and heritage of his society. It's about WAY more than academics or preparing the child to be a useful cog in the wheel.
I have to think about it some more, but I wonder if the idea of "paideia" might be a thread in common between classical ed and unschooling (and CM, too). It implies something more than just "teaching" -- it also implies the environment and the influences that surround the child. The teacher is sort of a mentor and sage, perhaps coach, not just someone giving lectures and grading but someone who takes an active, personal interest in where the child is at present and where he is going.
Oops, off to deal with a toilet-training issue!
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Willa
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lapazfarm
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Interesting food for thought.
As I sit here typing this, ds is sitting beside me at his computer working on his "novel." This is totally voluntary. Since it is about knights and dragons he is searching through a book on medieval combat so he can write in some authentic moves. He just taught himself how to right-click text to use the built-in thesaurus so he can add variety in his writing (I didn't know that little trick!). And he is up to nearly 3500 words.
Why am I so reluctant to make the break to totally unschooling? I have children with a natural love for learning, so it should be easy, right?
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lapazfarm
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Oh, and I just don't see Classical ed and unschooling as very compatible. I think the overriding philosophies between the two are just too different, but perhaps Willa has hit on one area of commonality. When I taught public school, paideia was the new buzzword. It was most often used to mean a variation on socratic seminar.
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Tabz
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Thanks for posting the link to my blog. I was hoping that article would really open up some good discussion (as I've seen it has).
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Willa
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lapazfarm wrote:
| When I taught public school, paideia was the new buzzword. It was most often used to mean a variation on socratic seminar. |
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That's the meaning that pops up if you google the term, I found... because of Mortimer Adler's Paideia project to try to restore some real thinking and dialectic in the classroom.
The socratic seminar seems to be a more artificial way of doing what can occur very naturally in unschooling. That's one thing that's REALLY come about from my unschooling experiment in this house. We've had some discussions that are worth their weight in gold. I used to cut these discussions short because I always had to go on to the next thing.
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Willa
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Another commonality between classical and unschooling is that they both seek to produce a love for learning in the child. However, I will admit that the respective approaches towards this goal tends to differ quite a bit.
I read one blog post by a classical homeschooler who made the point that we're ALL unschooling most of the time... hardly any of us has our kids doing formal schooling for more than a few hours per day.
I once linked to Cardinal Newman's book Idea of a University in which he said that if a student had to go to one extreme or the other, the independent auto-didact approach was a LOT more likely in his opinion to lead to a young person fitted towards TRUE education, than the very outside-directed approach of studying and regurgitating.
I just found this interesting commentary on Mortimer Adler's life -- Adler is a proponent of a revival of classical ideals:
"Adler maintained that schooling did not make one educated; it merely prepared students for a life of learning. No one can be an educated person, while immature, Adler wrote in The Paideia Proposal. Only through the trials of adult life, only with the range and depth of experience that makes for maturity, can human beings become educated persons.
"Adler himself knew the value of self-education. Hoping to be a journalist, he dropped out of school at 14 to become a copyboy at the New York Sun. After a year, he took night classes at Columbia University to improve his writing. Reading the autobiography of English philosopher John Stuart Mill for a class, he discovered that Mill had read Plato at age 5. He felt a sense of shame that he had not yet done so and borrowed Plato's works from a neighbor. Adler was hooked, and he eventually got a scholarship to study philosophy at Columbia.
"Adler's experience in the working world led him to propose a mandatory two-year hiatus from all schooling after students graduated from high school, although this was not formally included in the Paideia plan. Only after experience in life and work would students really be eager to learn.
"Young people certainly cannot become mature as long as they remain in school; on the contrary, they suffer from prolonged adolescence, Adler wrote in his autobiography Philosopher At Large. That is a pathological condition which can be prevented only by getting the young out of school as soon after the onset of puberty as possible.
"This way, Adler said, universities would be populated with students who return to educational institutions because they have a genuine desire for further formal study, instead of students who occupy space in our higher institutions as the result of social pressures.
"Regardless of whether a person went to college, Adler maintained that lifelong learning was essential for personal happiness. Adler defined happiness as Aristotle did, not as instant pleasures but the joy and satisfaction that comes from living a virtuous life. "
What Happened to the Great Ideas
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lapazfarm
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This guy sure has some fascinating ideas. The part about young people not maturing until leaving school, and needing some time off before entering college is so true according to my experience.
Willa, I like what you said about the socratic seminar being an artificial form of what we do as homeschoolers. Some of our very best learning comes out of discussions. I wonder, though, if that is enough? For instance, ds and I just had a great discussion about why north is north and south is south, and what our maps would have looked like if the early explorers had been from the southern hemisphere. Great discussion, BUT it was sparked by a question about the Journey North assignment he is working on. If not for tha assignment, we wouldn't have had that discussion. This is often the case with our best discussions-they are initiated by a question from an assignment. I guess this is the fear I have of unschooling. Without the assignments, will we have the same level of discussion?
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Willa
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Theresa,
I don't know if it is enough. The discussions we've had this year are mostly precipitated by the kids' interests. They end up branching into other areas. For example, my daughter might discuss a musical with me and it might end up as informal literary analysis and Catholic worldview talk. I was just recently talking about character development and the importance of good choices because of my 13yo's interest in Star Wars. That discussion was the kind of thing that keeps me homeschooling!
I am not altogether comfortable with this as a stand-alone, though. One of my classical ideals is the participation in the Great Ideas and a recognition of the gifts of the past. Star Wars and Les Miserables *derive* from our historical tradition but they are not all there is to it.
Maybe it's just the type of people we are, but we have settled into a middle-brow way of life. My kids are not going to grow up illiterate and incurious. Unschooling is working great for me compared to what they would be getting in the typical CA school. But I feel there is MORE.
I think in the long run my form of unschooling is going to have to include some kind of active introduction of new things, like you say about learning North and South. through a literature study. Or even some kind of scope and sequence, no matter how informal and non-directive.
That's where I'm stuck at this point. It might be different if I was unschooling just one kid. We could sit down every day and plan what to do. I can't seem to do that with 6 kids of all very different personalities, interests and talents, not to mention ranging in age from 3 to 17.
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I think that is probably where we will settle as well. In fact most people I know of that consider themselves unschoolers are not the radical unschooler kind that give their children no direction at all. Speaking of which, I have to go as I think I just heard said ds turn on the belt sander. What could he be up to now? 
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Leonie
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Thanks for all the repies!
Obviously, this is an issue I ponder.
Discussions are great. But so is application - application to study, to getting to know a topic and not skim the surface.
I think back to Andres' book. To me, it was obvious, in the book, that Andres has a love of books, of classical learning and also has an interest in child lead learning. She seems to mesh the two - not planning on teaching areas that are covered by interests and a learning atmosphere or life - but using tools to cover those areas that stand out as needing encouragment or exposure or application - in her home, this is Maths, a reading list, writing, piano and religion ( from memory).
Is this unschooling or a blend? Does it ring true for you, Willa and Theresa and Tabz?
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WJFR wrote:
I think in the long run my form of unschooling is going to have to include some kind of active introduction of new things, like you say about learning North and South. through a literature study. Or even some kind of scope and sequence, no matter how informal and non-directive.
That's where I'm stuck at this point. It might be different if I was unschooling just one kid. We could sit down every day and plan what to do. I can't seem to do that with 6 kids of all very different personalities, interests and talents, not to mention ranging in age from 3 to 17. |
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Willa,
I wonder if this brings things full circle to Cm? Her philosophy was to bring forth great ideas (classical) and let the kids make their own connections. But, not all kids will connect to all things.
Where the structure (or lack of) comes in is within the needs of each child. Each child learns differently. And.. the needs of each parent. Those with a large family might want more than those with a small one- just to get the ideas out there and be able to see what the child is doing with them.
Raw unschooling- where the child is in charge of finding all the things interesting to him/her may not exist very often.. as most radical unschoolers I have heard of at least will strew.
Maybe if one feels a tendency to unschool, but wants to strew classical ideas, they would be more Cmish than they know, at least in terms of philosophy?
Thanks for the Adler article.. very interesting. I liked what he said about the real education happening when children become adults. That reinforces even more to me the Cm idea of laying out the 'feast' and letting the dc make connections. It all is a prelude for later life. Humm... maybe we are just to introduce ideas not, not neccesarily cover a certain amount of material? Pondering, too.
Cindy in Texas
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Leonie, I like the idea of unschooling areas where interests lead, and teaching more formally in areas that need encouragement. It feels like it could be a good blend, if done properly. With many children, I'm not sure I could do it, as it seems to require a very high level of attention. With only 2 homeschooling right now, and one of them only in preschool, I think I could do it.
If I never planned a thing for history I feel confident my ds would pick up enough on his own. Especially if I strew it. Ds loves maps, so geography is easy- just add in fun projects like Journey North. Science would be no problem, as our whole family is very science oriented and ds is easily encouraged into science projects. Creative writing, again no problem. Grammar, same. Report writing will need encouragement, but can be done once a month or so. So, really, when it comes down to it, the only subject I would HAVE to direct would be math, and then only the computation part, as ds loves the conceptual stuff he gets from living math books.
And what Cindy said about introducing ideas rather than covering a certain amount of material is certainly food for thought.
Boy am I tempted, as spring approaches, to give this method a chance. But then, without all the planning, what would I do???? 
Plus, I have to admit, one thing that makes me hesitate to unschool is the need to have a PRODUCT at the end of each unit we study. I admit I need to see a project, or a lapbook done, or a notebook filling up to feel like we've accomplished something-to have something tangible to show for ds efforts. To look back on and say "look how much he learned!" What I should be more concerned about is what knowledge, skills, abilities, insights, experiences ds has gained through his studies. I really need to pray about letting this one go.
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lapazfarm wrote:
| Boy am I tempted, as spring approaches, to give this method a chance. But then, without all the planning, what would I do???? |
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Hi Teresa- Can't help but think --
:) Instead of planning.. journal what they did! lol
Still I find I spend lots of time researching. I have a general plan of what I want to cover and come to think of it, it is in the way you all described here. Looking for things they are not finding on their own. It takes time to track stuff down, then strew- read myself and start a study , etc.
It also takes time when they have an interest, to connect with them. Then try to facilitate what they are doing. More research.
Then.. reading my articles/books/list when I am feeling spent-- to rev me up again.
Then to take my journal and put it in Word by subject so I see how much they are doing...
Oh.. was your question rhetorical? lol! There is always something to do, isn't there?
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lapazfarm
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Cindy wrote:
| Instead of planning.. journal what they did! lol |
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And right there is the answer to my "product" question!
Thanks!
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Theresa-
I just read your site.. enjoyed it. I like the 'us' schooling... great.
Your mini-dog unit was great. Reminds me of a class I taught in a local coop a few years ago. Had only 5 kids and we did much of the same as you did.. read parts of Call of the Wild, studied the Iditiarod, each child chose a breed to study and wrote up questions and at the end we played dog jeopardy! We had a click-dog trainer come visit and did a Cm style 'object study' on our chubby dachshund (pictued in my icon) who I brought up to the RE building for that day.
Great memories... just love to mix dogs and kids.
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lapazfarm wrote:
Cindy wrote:
| Instead of planning.. journal what they did! lol |
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And right there is the answer to my "product" question!
Thanks! |
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Well, that has worked well for me over the years. I am very product oriented, too. CM and others are good to remind me it is the process. I have burned my kids for product- in the early years.
But, you know, I like product. It is fun to see where we were- especially when my brain forgets what we did yesterday. lol
I love going through the old kindergarten box and seeing the drawings, etc. The kids do, too.
As mine got older (I have one I'm doing transcripts for) I have tried to keep a simple journal (just few words of what they do, read, etc) Once a quarter or so I put it into a word document by subject. It looks impressive when it is all sorted by subject. Nice, too, to remind us of what we were doing over the months.
When I feel insecure, I read the old Educational Summaries (my name for them) and feel much better. 
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Thanks. We had a blast today with the canine family tree.LOTS of branches! We ended up looking at it from the perspective of our dog, Buddy ("Buddy's Family Tree"), and ds decided to add in a "Buddy's Family Photo Album", with pix of all the canines. Lots of fun.
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Leonie
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lapazfarm wrote:
Cindy wrote:
| Instead of planning.. journal what they did! lol |
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And right there is the answer to my "product" question!
Thanks! |
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But the product ( journal) is produced by the parent.
I journal, too, but I also like to sometimes see a product from the dc.
Sometimes this is self initiated.
Sometimes, it is something I ask for and we agree on.
Why do I ask for product and process?
I think it helps the dc to see for themselves a proof of learning, an achievement, something tangible, reward for effort.
There is value on review, too, and a product makes this easier and helps review to be more natural, in a way.
And I do need some products for the State re homeschooling regulations.
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Leonie,
Can you give examples of some of the products you ask of your dc and some self initiated ones?
You make a good point about review. That's how I have always looked at our notebbooks and lapbooks before.
I really enjoy the notebooking we have done, and I think ds likes it too, but sometimes I think it is more for me than for ds, kwim? Other products, like models of buildings and art projects, I know he loves and gets alot out of as he begs to do more. Maybe it is just a matter of finding a meaningful product to serve the purpose of review without it just being busywork.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Two interesting links on unschooling..
