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abcmommy
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| Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:05am | IP Logged
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We like this a lot, but I saw it referred to as liberal somewhere in this forum.
Dh and I enjoy the music a lot but he loathes the kids who serve as ushers and etc in tees and jeans and things. I am not at all bothered by the kids dressing casually. The mass seems pretty much the same to me, but at the end they say something different from "mass is ended, go in peace." they say (paraphrasing here) "mass never ends. it must be lived."
Anyway, no beanbags here in IN. Just a lot of music and bc of this, mass is quite a bit longer- 90 mins instead of 60. The kids like it bc the songs are easier to sing along with but they are always a bit naughty at the end bc of sitting so long.
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MaryM
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Some people really like it some don't care for it at all. The Life Teen program itself is theologically orthodox, but the Mass has included elements that did not follow the norms of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). One being the thing you mentioned about substituting a different closing for the prescribed "the Mass is ended, go in peace." The Life Teen program in 2004 was asked to make changes to bring the Life Teen Mass into conformity with the GIRM in those regards.
Amy Welborn's blog has a post with portions of the letter that was sent to the Life Teen parishes by it's national director telling them of the changes to be in conformity to the GIRM. Some may still not like the style of music, homilies, whatever, but the rubrics in those specific areas follow the GIRM now. If a Life Teen program has not made those changes they are not in conformity with the GIRM or the national Life Teen program.
As I understand it something similar happened recently with the Neocatecumenal Way (what would be considerd a "conservative" apostolate). They were asked to make changes in the way they did a couple things during Mass so that they were in conformity with the GIRM. It isn't necessarily a "conservative" or "liberal" issue - it is just that there is a certain way that the Mass is to be celebrated and "Therefore no other person, not even a priest may add, remove or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority'. (Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium §22).
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almamater
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abcmommy wrote:
We like this a lot, but I saw it referred to as liberal somewhere in this forum.
Dh and I enjoy the music a lot but he loathes the kids who serve as ushers and etc in tees and jeans and things. I am not at all bothered by the kids dressing casually. |
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I think it is not a matter of whether we are bothered by the clothing, it is ultimately a question as to whether it pleases our Lord. The priest is offering the sacrifice of the Mass, our Lord is present in a very real way. Yes, our Lord accepts us for who we are, but do we not want, when given the opportunity, to present our very best to Him? Do our efforts on the external reflect our internal? Do the teens who wear shorts or jeans to Mass on Sunday wear the same clothes to their prom, sister's wedding, etc? Our liturgy, music, attire, art, languge, posture...everything about the church and Mass is to be the best and most beautiful we can offer.
I was having a conversation with my dd's ballet teacher recently about the music and gestures being used in ballet studios these days. She said she had to open a private studio because the other studios were using bad pop music and very suggestive moves in lieu of traditional venues. She says the directors of those schools argue "that's what the kids want, so that is what we have to do"  WRONG!! Children may (unfortunately) be listening to that stuff all week on the radio and learning to move like that on MTV, but one studies tap and ballet to refine their skills and elevate their senses.
Likewise with Mass, I firmly believe that our teens, along with everyone else, are seeking a spiritual reprieve from the world when they walk into Mass. They need to be lifted to the spiritual plane with a lofty environment and by dressing in our best clothes (no matter how lowly), designating beautiful music, using rich language and ceremony, we are drawn away from the world toward our Lord. Doing all of these things also reinforces our respect for the real presence of our Lord.
>>Anyway, no beanbags here in IN.
Glad to hear it! 
>The kids like it bc the songs are easier to sing along
[/QUOTE]
Seriously?? I find the more modern music much more challenging and, in my experience as a church musician, fewer people sing along on those rhythmic numbers than on the old four square hymns. Interesting. You might be surprised what your children are capable of; I direct the children's choir at our Latin Mass and even the four and five year olds can sing chant and Latin hymns 
Please know that everything in this post is said a pleasant voice and without defense or offense intended. I do have strong feelings about the teen Masses, but do not harbor any negative feelings towards my friends or acquaintances who see it differently. I only care about striving honoring our Lord in the way He requires and deserves.
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Mary G
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The funny thing we noticed when we tried Life Teen a couple of times:
- the important focus for the kids is the get-together after Mass, not Mass itself
- many of the folks at Mass are the 50-sometings who tend to be the more liberal members of the parish
- the not following of the rubric for Holy Mass is a serious issue for us
- the beating of a drum during the Gloria is reminiscent of bad 30s movies showing natives about to eat te whiteman
- the dimmed lights during the consecration are OK, but the music playing in the background is not -- EVERYONE is supposed to be focused on the consecration
But, it also may depend on your parish -- we've only been to Life Teen at this one parish.....
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MacBeth
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Mary G. wrote:
the beating of a drum during the Gloria is reminiscent of bad 30s movies showing natives about to eat te whiteman
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The one I attended included a rock and roll song, drum kit included, during Communion. It's just not my cup of tea.
Like Jennifer (Hi Jennifer!!), I find the music to be lacking in other ways. Rather than hymns, and if there is no drumming, there are strumming guitars that drone on, reminding me of nothing short of the witch in The Silver Chair. And, like Jennifer, I find that little kids can totally get into sacred music...happens here all the time  .
But, as Mary said, it may vary regionally.
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Mary G
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MacBeth wrote:
[ And, like Jennifer, I find that little kids can totally get into sacred music...happens here all the time .
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The basic problem with LifeTeen is a dumbing down of the liturgy as if this will get the kids to come to Church (ala Sister Act -- when we were in Austria the first time around there were all the different types of liturgies available -- from the very Charismatic to Tridentine, to Byzantine Liturgy etc. My kids prefered the Latin Mass but really liked the chanting of the Byzantine.
Please note -- none of these Masses went any more "hip" than the songs in the Adoremus (and an occasional Franciscan hymn) and all (incl the college students) attended daily and Sunday Mass with a hight frequency.....
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abcmommy
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I think our lifeteen mass is less hip than yours are. lol we dont have a drum kit tho we do have some guitar maybe? and a larger chorus made up of kids (teens.)
I grew up going to St John's in Warrenton's (I am specific since many of you all know this church!)9 am folk mass which had the normal hymns but it had a lot of music- guitar, flute, trumpet, piano, and violin and often more uptempo hymns, and this is what our lifeteen mass is like- tho the songs here are modern. They are still pretty musical and not too rock n roll-y.
i can see not adhering to girm is troublesome.
I like to dress for mass and to dress my children (oh my, lets not get started on how I love to dress my kids! bc there in we may find an awful lot of pride and vanity!!) But I am not too offended by teens who dont care to dress up as long as they are pretty reverant and I find at our masses there is reverance as well as a hip sort of goodnatured modern flare. I am sure each priest handles this differently and probably some are better at it than others. Our little priest (he is really tiny, much shorter than me and I really like his style) is warm and he knows each kid in the pews. I find this really refreshing and cool, bc my priests growing up were rather distant (both deaf as a post actually) and aloof and not interested in the youth.
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folklaur
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| Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:22pm | IP Logged
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*sigh*
ya know, I was going to just not respond to this one. But then I figured, I might as well 
We have LifeTeen at our parish. Actually, our parish is where LifeTeen started. And I have mixed feelings about it, overall.
But, I do have to say that it was the "Life Goes On" program, which I think is just called "College Life" now, that reverted me back to the Faith. I don't know if all parishes have it -- it is basically for LT graduates. I had pretty much left the church in my mid-teens, as even though I had gone to Catholic school my whole life, I wasn't very well catechized I got challeneged by some people in the "born again, bible only, fundamentalist" groups and had no answers to what seemed like profoundly disturbing questions. Same old story, right?
Well, when I was attending Arizona State University, and was about 23 or so, I met a friend who had gone through the whole LT program, and who finally, after many, many, many excuses and refusals on my part, finally got me to a LifeTeen Mass. And I was sure lightning was going to come out of the sky and strike me down.
I thank God every day that my friend was such a strong Catholic, and stubborn enough to keep pestering me, and bascially dragged me to LT mass. After that Mass, I was at Confession within the week, and back to my faith for good.
Now, that isn't to say I like everything about LT, because I don't. And yes, the LT Mass can be too loud ( and I have to add here that my husband works at church, and is in charge of running the sound ( please don't throw me off the board okay?) 
And yes, being as people like Matt Maher and Tom Booth are our music ministers, it is definalty, ummm....got drums...and guitars...and all that.
I do have to say that I have also noticed a large number of people aged 50+ there. However, my mom, who is well into her 60's, adores the LT mass, and I would not call her liberal at all. She just tells me, she remembers what it "used to be like", and she likes LT. I don't know, I think it might be possible that some of us now "romanticize" how "it was". I do remember being terrified of the priest at my parish growing up, and as a small child, I think your impression of your priest kind of becomes your idea of what God is like. My mom can tell you horror stories about how her wedding was almost cancelled the night before becasue the Best Man genuflected on the wrong knee during the rehersal; and how mothers were not allowed into the church to see their baby's Baptisms ( she was not allowed at either my brother's, who is 7 years older than me, or mine. Two different priests, two different parishes, same rule.) A lot of things are also probably regional, so different parts of the country have probably always done things differently.
I don't know. In our Catholic homeschool group there was a huge attack a few years ago on our parish and anyone who went there -- people saying it was "basically Protestant" and things like that, becasue of LT. Which isn't fair, as many of them had never even set foot in our church or gone to a LT mass anywhere.  I guess I feel the need to defend it becasue of that.
We are really just so lucky to live here in the Phx metro area -- we have Tridentine, Byzantine, LifeTeen, and everything in between to choose from, all pretty much within easy driving distance.
I haven't really ever noticed the homily being "dumbed down". As I said, dh works at church, and so gets to hear all our priests some weekends. And the priest who does the LT mass usually has basically the same homily as he did in the morning. We do haev some priests who talk about some issues that others don't -- but isn't that the same with all priests?
And yes the ending was different. We had said, "The Mass never ends, it must be lived; So let us go forth to love and serve the Lord. Thanks be to God. Alleluia". But we haven't done that since at least mid 2004.
Okay -- this has gotten way too long Sorry.
Blessings,
~Laura in AZ
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abcmommy
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Laura, I really enjoyed your post!!
ITA that the homily being dumbed down isnt an issue everywhere. I think so much depends on a good priest and his ability to communicate well.
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Angie Mc
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Hi Laura, I was hoping you would chime in here...thanks!
Here's my gut feeling on the whole thing. I wish there wasn't a real/perceived need for separating teens into their own Mass. I'm concerned that this feeds into the teen inclination to be self-focused, as in "I need a Mass for me, one that fits my wants and style. I'm separate from my family. I'm really different from others."
Having said this, self-focus is alive and well at the Masses of our parish mostly comprised of retirees. They, too, want "their" Masses and want families and teens relegated to "their" Masses. They want to sing what they want to sing, be Eucharistic Ministers even when they aren't needed, on and on.
The challenge, as I see it, is to help everyone in the pews to focus on Christ and to help everyone who serves the Mass to become transparent so that Christ can be seen through them. This seems straight forward enough but I do see the challenge of this with so many of us well intentioned but self-focused humans .
BTW, my dd has been invited to attend different teen Masses since moving to AZ and has found differing levels of quality and adherance to the GIRM. This isn't surprising and can be said of parishes in general.
Oh how I pray that all is leading to Christ!
Love,
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folklaur
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Angie Mc wrote:
| Hi Laura, I was hoping you would chime in here...thanks! |
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Hi! And totally off topic -- but we may be moving out towards you guys.
Angie Mc wrote:
Here's my gut feeling on the whole thing. I wish there wasn't a real/perceived need for separating teens into their own Mass. I'm concerned that this feeds into the teen inclination to be self-focused, as in "I need a Mass for me, one that fits my wants and style. I'm separate from my family. I'm really different from others." |
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Oh, yes, yes YES! That is one of the things I am trying to say. But everything is separated now - each sub-set seems to have it's own thing to do. And I hate it! Like one of the other things is the "Young Families Ministry" - geared towards ages 7 and under -- but what about those of us with more kids, of all different ages, who actually LIKE spending time together as a family? I mean, we like our teen, and she (usually) likes us too. She likes her siblings. They adore her. I think so many more things should be inclusive of all ages. It just feels wrong to me to sperate the family like that. Even now, our teen goes to Mass with us all in the morning as a family, and then will go back again in the evening for LT Mass -- so some of it is social, I know.
Our society is just structured to group us all off like that anymore. We, in the homeschooling circles, notice - and rebel - against it, where as I think most people don't even notice it, or just accept it as "normal".
Anyhow, that's just my thoughts, jumbled as they are
~Laura in AZ
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folklaur
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abcmommy wrote:
Laura, I really enjoyed your post!!
ITA that the homily being dumbed down isnt an issue everywhere. I think so much depends on a good priest and his ability to communicate well. |
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Feeling silly, but what is "ITA"? I'm usually pretty good at figuring these out, but I'm stuck on this one.
~Laura in AZ
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Jenny
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Ok, here's my 2 cents...I wonder why we need to change the Mass? The Mass is a sacrifice, not a worship service, not a prayer meeting, not a chance for fellowship. The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of Our Lord and I don't think that it should be, or even can be changed. I am not sure of the fruit all these changes are bearing? How many Saints will be brought forth from these "new" Masses.
Fortunately, The Church has the greatest lure to draw young & old...a miracle. A miracle that takes place each & every Mass. No other church can offer Our Lord; Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist. We don't need loud or contemporary music, bright colors or any other invention to draw people to Our Lord. He did it by His teaching, & His death & resurrection. The Church should do it by teaching the truth, not dressed up or dumbded down.
I offer my thoughts not as a criticism, but as another point of view. Since tone cannot be conveyed in print, my thoughts are in the spirit of a charitable conversation
Jenny
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Angie Mc
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Great points, Jenny!
4mothermary wrote:
Ok, here's my 2 cents...I wonder why we need to change the Mass?...The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of Our Lord and I don't think that it should be, or even can be changed.
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The simple answer is that the Mass IS the Mass if it is in compliance with the GIRM. There is a lot of room for difference in interrpretation on issues of style, as I have seen among many Bishops connected to our family relocations.
4mothermary wrote:
The Mass is a sacrifice, not a worship service, not a prayer meeting, not a chance for fellowship....
Fortunately, The Church has the greatest lure to draw young & old...a miracle. A miracle that takes place each & every Mass. No other church can offer Our Lord; Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist....
We don't need loud or contemporary music, bright colors or any other invention to draw people to Our Lord. He did it by His teaching, & His death & resurrection. The Church should do it by teaching the truth, not dressed up or dumbded down.
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Yes! And how do we live this and share it with others? Once someone knows this mysterious truth, through the grace of God and excellent formation, then the truth of this is so obvious and suddenly we understand the privilege of the Mass. It isn't about me...it is about Christ.
4mothermary wrote:
| I am not sure of the fruit all these changes are bearing? How many Saints will be brought forth from these "new" Masses. |
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I ask myself the same questions and pray fervently that all is leading to Christ. One thing that frustrates me is when folks throw stats around without proof. At the Life Teen Mass at our parish, I've heard it said that because these teens participate in the Life Teen activities (in addition to attending Mass) that they are more likely to stay within the faith. I'm not so sure that they can say this and haven't seen solid proof. This may be more of a result that what we want instead of what actually is happening. I wonder if the teens are getting enough solid formation and worry that once the bells and whistles are gone, they will go looking for bells and whistles elsewhere.
4mothermary wrote:
I offer my thoughts not as a criticism, but as another point of view. Since tone cannot be conveyed in print, my thoughts are in the spirit of a charitable conversation
Jenny
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We always assume good intent here until proven otherwise . I appreciate your heartfelt and thoughtful comments. Your post didn't strike me so much as a different point of view but clarification of what the Mass is and a sincere effort to answer the question, how do we bring honor to Christ and bring others to Him.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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cactus mouse wrote:
Hi! And totally off topic -- but we may be moving out towards you guys.
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So I hear  PM me or call if I can help. I'm posting this publicly because, well, all the Virginia friends are flaunting their togetherness so I thought us AZ folks would do the same  .
Love,
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folklaur
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4mothermary wrote:
Ok, here's my 2 cents...I wonder why we need to change the Mass? The Mass is a sacrifice, not a worship service, not a prayer meeting, not a chance for fellowship. The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of Our Lord and I don't think that it should be, or even can be changed. I am not sure of the fruit all these changes are bearing? How many Saints will be brought forth from these "new" Masses.
Fortunately, The Church has the greatest lure to draw young & old...a miracle. A miracle that takes place each & every Mass. No other church can offer Our Lord; Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist. We don't need loud or contemporary music, bright colors or any other invention to draw people to Our Lord. He did it by His teaching, & His death & resurrection. The Church should do it by teaching the truth, not dressed up or dumbded down. |
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I am not sure what you mean by "change"? LifeTeen mass, at least here, is the same as any Mass I have ever gone to, except for the contemporary music. But the sacrifice of the Mass, the order of the mass, is the same as I have always had. This isn't going to turn into a Novus Ordo discussion, I hope.
hhhmmmm.....
the catechism says this (with emphasis mine):
1208 The diverse liturgical traditions or rites, legitimately recognized, manifest the catholicity of the Church, because they signify and communicate the same mystery of Christ.
1209 The criterion that assures unity amid the diversity of liturgical traditions is fidelity to apostolic Tradition, i e., the communion in the faith and the sacraments received from the apostles, a communion that is both signified and guaranteed by apostolic succession.
1198 In its earthly state the Church needs places where the community can gather together. Our visible churches, holy places, are images of the holy city, the heavenly Jerusalem, toward which we are making our way on pilgrimage.
1199 It is in these churches that the Church celebrates public worship to the glory of the Holy Trinity, hears the word of God and sings his praise, lifts up her prayer, and offers the sacrifice of Christ sacramentally present in the midst of the assembly. These churches are also places of recollection and personal prayer.
So, in a sense, I think it DOES have aspects of a worship service and it is a means of fellowship. We ARE supposed to come together as a community. Obvioulsy, the Eucharist is ( should ALWAYS be!) the focus. But we ARE supposed to gather togther.
4mothermary wrote:
I offer my thoughts not as a criticism, but as another point of view. Since tone cannot be conveyed in print, my thoughts are in the spirit of a charitable conversation
Jenny |
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me too
~Laura in AZ
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abcmommy
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Respectfully, I do think many masses around the country could use a little something and a little more fellowship and worship. Maybe bright colors and catchier music would help, maybe not.
I recently attended an advent service at my Grandma's church in Illinois. It was the most lifeless, dead, joyless and disappointing mass I have ever attended. You could feel the habitual nature of church attendance. It wasnt a miracle happening, it was drudgery. The church was packed to the gills and no one smiled at one another. It was awful.
Reverance doesnt need to be boring. Mass can still be mass with a lot of youthful joy in it.
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alicegunther
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abcmommy wrote:
| It wasnt a miracle happening, it was drudgery. |
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Ah, but it was a miracle happening all the same! : )
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Cay Gibson
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abcmommy wrote:
| The church was packed to the gills and no one smiled at one another. It was awful. |
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Ah, but we can (and should) smile...even if no one else does. Scripture tells us to shine our light to the world and not hide it under a bushel basket (do I have that phrased correctly? ). We are to watch over our own attitude and disposition and, by doing so, 'help' transform the world...even if it's only with a teensy ray of sunlight in the darkness.
alicegunther wrote:
abcmommy wrote:
| It wasnt a miracle happening, it was drudgery. |
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Ah, but it was a miracle happening all the same! : ) |
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Ah, yes! A divine miracle.
And, as I remind my dc every now and then, we are there for God...nothing else. He owes us nothing. We owe Him everything.
We do not go to Mass for the music, the fellowship, the singing, or anything else. We go for Our Lord and Savior!
If Mass is not the joyful experience we want, we can offer it up for the souls in purgatory and for the salvation of our families.
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Mary G
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Always remember that regardless of the "trappings" -- as long as it's a valid consecration than a miracle happens and that's what we're there for!
Cay -- I love your idea to offer up the Mass, when it's less than I would like, to the souls in purgatory. YES!
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Lifeteen Mass
