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Angie Mc
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In last week's poll about narration, Erin Lewis asked:
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I was just coming here to ask a question about oral narrations and saw this thread...
I will be starting K with my five yr old this fall and the idea of narrations appeals to me. Does any one have a link to something that gives a basic description of how to begin? Does the child dictate after hearing a new story for the first time, or after a few readings? Do they retell it immediately after hearing it, or a bit later?
Thanks! I am also going to read thru some past threads here and am sure I can find a lot of tips! |
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Hi Erin.
I'd be happy to give you a few links to get you started reading about narration. I don't start asking for narrations until my kids are 6 - usually around the middle of the 1st grade for us. Sometimes they like to tell me about a favorite book when they're younger, and that's fine, I certainly don't discourage that, but I don't ask or require narrations until after they're 6. But, that's great for you though! It gives you lots of time to look into this and read before you implement.
Narration is what I would consider an anchor method for Charlotte Mason's philosophy of education. It is really very simple. The child tells back what he has just read (or what has just been read aloud). In the telling back, the child takes ownership of the reading. Rather than using reading comprehension questions to find out what the child *doesn't know* (these can cause sincere frustration, especially in a child that is reading above his grade level...reading comprehension questions may expect more abstract reflections that the child is capable of)....narration is used and the child lets you know what they *do know*. Narrations are chosen from living books. Here are some things for you read...
I always start with Lindafay's down-to-earth advice and insight at CharlotteMasonhelp - Narration/Composition.
Simply Charlotte Mason - Narration Ideas
Penny Gardner - Narration
Penny Gardner - Narration Cube (and my interpretation of the narration cube)
Catherine Levison - narration
Ambleside Online - Narration Q & A and Some Thoughts on Narration.
A succinct collection of thoughts on all of Charlotte Masons language arts methods at Mater Amabilis
I recently wrote a series on Charlotte Mason Language Arts on my blog. Here is the post on narration.
Suzanne recently quoted one of her favorite thoughts from Lindafay singing the praises of narration, and it's one of mine as well!
SuzanneG wrote:
re: NARRATION
Every year, I go to Lindafay's website to "refresh" the nut-and-bolts of a CM education. I just LOVE her posts too! Jen linked them on a couple of her LA posts. If you haven't clicked over, it's very worth it.
I wanted to pull this out from this post on narration from Lindafay's website that I remember made such an impression on me a few years ago:
Lindafay wrote:
| Personally, I've done the research and have tested it extensively on my own children and I stand amazed at the results. I contemplated titling this post NARRATION CHANGED MY LIFE! It's kind of humorous, but it really is true. It has not only greatly simplified my planning and lightened my workload, but it has enabled my children to really learn their subject matter. Whenever I evaluate my children, I notice that their greatest knowledge and amount of love for a subject always comes from the passages they narrated aloud earlier in the year. Usually, if they didn't narrate to me, then later, they couldn't recall what they read very well. Not only that, but frequent narration has caused their verbal skills to surge remarkably and this has naturally transferred over into their writing. Narration has taught them to organize their thoughts and speak with clarity and style. I challenge those who have never tried this method to look into it. |
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Hope this gives you a good start, Erin! 
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JennGM
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| Posted: July 20 2010 at 9:34am | IP Logged
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Reading through some of the links, I had more questions I thought I would pop in here. Linda Fay used written narrations as an example, with the youngest age being 8. But the other links talk about written happening around age 10.
So, I'm wondering when you do start written narrations, and how do you transition?
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Mackfam
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The age for transitioning into written narrations depends a lot on the child and their writing abilities I think. I can tell you what CM said...and I can share what I do...but I'm all for doing what's best in your own family!  Charlotte Mason offers this:
A Philosophy of Education, p. 192 wrote:
Form II (A and B), (ages 9 to 12). Children in this Form have a wider range of reading, a more fertile field of thought, and more delightful subjects for composition. They write their little essays themselves...
Composition is not an adjunct but an integral part of their education in every subject.
But let me again say there must be no attempt to teach composition. Our failure as teachers is that we place too little dependence on the intellectual power of our scholars, and as they are modest little souls what the teacher kindly volunteers to do for them, they feel that they cannot do for themselves. But give them a fair field and no favour and they will describe their favourite scene from the play they have read, and much besides. |
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I have not yet begun with written narrations before the age of 10. I'm not sure I had calculated reasons, it was just the right time for the child. Oral narrations were going well. Their ability to organize their thoughts was maturing and gathering momentum. Their writing/penmanship abilities were improving such that putting pencil to paper was not a chore to be reckoned with, but a skill that could be made use of. And...I'll add that I have my children complete a course in keyboarding skills before they begin written narrations because I do offer that option of type-written or hand-written. All this seems to come together naturally around 10.
Truthfully, living out Charlotte Mason's methods gently on a day-to-day basis does more to lay the groundwork for writing such that transitioning really takes place in a hundred little ways over time. I did help my oldest daughter transition to a more summary style of narrating because her narrations were full of detail after detail after detail. I typed her oral narrations into a word processor program, double spaced. I printed and then I had her read it aloud to me. It really helped her *see* how her thoughts were coming together, and how that translated on paper. She could readily *see* her organization of thoughts, as well as the level of detail she was going into. We only did this a couple of times. I wasn't really teaching, or doing anything to transition other than to provide her an opportunity to read her own work and make connections on her own.
Written narrations evolve and grow over time quite naturally, just as oral narrations do. The child becomes comfortable with the format of "writing" and grows, nurtured by living books and ideas.
I'm not an expert though...so I'll shut up and let someone else share their perspective! 
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JennGM
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Thank you, Jen, that was very helpful.
One other simple question. Are we striving to have the narration become proper sentences and flowing thoughts, more formal than casual? Linda suggestion not to correct the oral narration as it goes on. Do we guide afterwards? Do we model?
I'm just trying to figure out how the oral narration which is casual but thorough from my son can become more properly done.
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SuzanneG
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JennGM wrote:
| One other simple question. Are we striving to have the narration become proper sentences and flowing thoughts, more formal than casual? Linda suggestion not to correct the oral narration as it goes on. Do we guide afterwards? Do we model? |
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I do not correct oral narrations at all. Even afterward. I will prompt, if they are having trouble during it. But, I don't correct or interrupt when they are speaking.
I do, however, make a mental note of what they are "doing" during their narration that may need to be worked on in the everyday.
ie: vocal pauses, run-on-sentences, fragments, inflection in the voice when it's not a question.
We talk about these things in casual conversation, and they learn A LOT by it. And, yes, I do remind occasionally to "use a full sentence" or "was that actually a question?" And, they do it to each other too. I've also explained that this is something we do ONLY in our family....NOT with anyone else!
If a child is struggling with the order of things, making things up b/c they aren't sure, or not "knowing" what they're saying....then that's a clue to me that a passage was too long for them, and I need to adjust as needed. Or maybe even possibly that it's not a good book choice for narration, etc.
The only thing I'd do "afterward" that seems a bit "correct-y" is to type out a narration (when I know a child is starting to fall into a bad habit verbally) and then have them read it back to me. And, I'd include all the vocalized pauses or whatever they're "doing". That way they sort of laugh at themselves and it helps them realize what they are doing without me being the pointer-outer of it!  I've only done this once or twice, and I remember reading it somewhere else.
And, yes....modeling is good too. I narrate too! And, definitely in the past 2 years or so, I've become much more aware of what I sound like when I am telling a story or explaining something.
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Erin Lewis
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Thanks, Jen, I will check out those links... funny thing is, I have your blog post on narration open in another tab on my computer right now!! I came across it completely randomly... it is helpful, thanks!
My aim is to keep K very casual and ease into academics slowly... so waiting until the child is six fits right in with my (still developing) philosophy of education. My daughter will be six next March... that is nice that I can have the extra time to learn more before she hits first grade when we can get into it more.
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amy_payson
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I know this is coming a little late (just now reading the thread) but I have a question in dealing with narration. Was going to start a new thread but seems like this is as good a place as any to ask.
My family has been doing narrations for years. My oldest boy is 8 and hates narration. (Yes, I've read all the advice and tried everything.) That said, I do see improvment in his narrations, especially composition-wise and it's given us much practical work with his grammar he is learning. We don't analyze every narration, only a couple a semester for our LA part. Mainly we narrate for history and place in our book of centuries (which seems to encompose much science and religion as it all ties together).
All that said, After we've been off a subject for a while and then it comes up again (ex. why revolutionary war was started - came up on the 4th from daddy during dinner conversation - after we did 4 months on this subject, read many wonderful living books, did some of his greatest narrations and generally loved the subject, esp. Ben F.), it seems he remembers nothing. It is as if he does narrations to get them out of the way and is actually not retaining very much. Granted, I realize he is 8 and that this, too, will improve. I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed this with narrations, if it is normal and gets better, or if I am going about it completely wrong.
Thanks for any advice.
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cathhomeschool
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Amy, my youngest struggles to remember too. I don't think that it has so much to do with narration as maybe with learning style, interest, age and...I don't know... how each child is made? My oldest could read something once and remember it forever. My second son struggles to retain details (over a long period of time) even if it's something he is choosing to read on his own. That same child will remember math concepts easily, though, while the oldest has to drill over and over and still forgets.
My younger two are getting better at retaining info as they get older. Including art projects, lapbooks and videos has helped them retain more than just reading and narrating too. My oldest didn't need any of that stuff, but his learning style is different. Have you tried some alternative forms of narration? If so, are there any that he seems to enjoy more or that help him retain more information?
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amy_payson wrote:
| I know this is coming a little late (just now reading the thread) but I have a question in dealing with narration. Was going to start a new thread but seems like this is as good a place as any to ask. |
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Hi Amy! Welcome!!!!!! We re-post to older threads all the time, reactivating them, so I'm so glad you popped in to ask a question!!! This is the perfect place for it!
amy_payson wrote:
| My family has been doing narrations for years. My oldest boy is 8 and hates narration. |
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That is tough. This is probably one of those times that you may have to fall back on, "education is a discipline." Narrations aren't always met with lavish enthusiasm around here either, but they are a discipline, and that's that as they say!
Part of it could be the age and as Janette points out, his learning style. Do check out the link of alternative narration styles that Janette linked to see if something there offers him a little help!
amy_payson wrote:
| I do see improvment in his narrations, especially composition-wise and it's given us much practical work with his grammar he is learning. We don't analyze every narration, only a couple a semester for our LA part. |
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I wonder if you could consider stopping all narration analysis - and just stick to plain and simple narrations? Relax any expectation that you might review his narration and allow some time for both of you to just enjoy narrations - whether they are drawn, acted out, puppeted (can I make that a verb?), orally given, etc.
Here are a couple of ideas I had for you:
:: This idea is more for memory retention of a subject that doesn't really go toward narrations...I know this is pretty un-orthodox, and I was just complaining to my husband last night that I was afraid that my oldest son (near your son in age - 9 1/2) was going to be able to say that all he learned about grammar, history, and science he learned from Schoolhouse Rock! Because, no matter the topic you ask about, he always belts out an answer in the form of a Schoolhouse Rock song! Even having said that, there's something catchy about hearing some dates and catch words sung. You might try to incorporate something like that in your days to see what happens.
:: Another thing I thought of...if my husband or someone else sits down and starts asking questions or quizzing about a subject, even questions that should be easy for them to answer, my kids blank. Not sure why this happens, but it does. However, when I ask them to, "tell me everything you remember about..." after reading a living book, they can do that just fine. It could be that your son is just blanking with a question which seems out of left field for him...but he really does remember. The older my kids are, the better they are at handling these questions from others.
:: And lastly, I have noticed something lately...as I've really been trying to be attentive to this principle of Charlotte Mason's, "education is the science of relations." I've been noticing that my children, even if they've narrated something previously, only remember it later if they formed a relationship to the idea or the book while reading. It really has illustrated to me how important it is that the book be living, and has certainly pointed out some of my choices that I really pushed, but that weren't living, and therefore, no relationship was formed, and...no memory of the reading is made. If I have a child that has been narrating for some time, and is having trouble narrating, I begin to wonder and really question/discern if the book is living or not.
Don't know if any of these reflections help, Amy, but I do want to encourage you! You're right, there will be much improvement in his ability to narrate as well as his memory and retention as he grows and matures!!!
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Janette ~ Thank you for the advice and the list. That may be just what we need! So many choices and I think if I let him decide then the fact of it being his choice will be huge. He will own the narration as opposed to it being about what mommy wants.
And Jen ~ Thank you for all your kind thoughts as well. My children are HUGE schoolhouse rock fans and I know that is what they will remember into adulthood. Music is a BIG part of our schooling. I try and put together a mix CD to different history/science subjects/periods that corresponds with what we're studying!
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I've been following this thread and enjoying all the great advice. I seem to have a different concern. I started narrations with my almost age 7 dd. She loves to talk (to anyone that will listen- real or not  ) Her narrations can go on for a long time. She can sometimes retell the smallest details of what she has read. I may ask for a chapter and will end up getting a synopsis of the whole book. (she is know reading beginning chapter books) At what point do I stop her? Am I suppose to redirect? Or do I just patiently let her keep talking? I find myself trying to intercede with specific questions to keep her on track. She begins to describe something she read and will remember something from another book or situation. (kind of reminds me of the If You Give .... Numeroff books ). I guess she's kind of like me . Any advice, suggestions are greatly appreciated. I want to have a good idea and feel for narrations before our school year starts. I plan on attempting a very CM style of learning this year. I've been practicing this summer. HELP!
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
| I've been following this thread and enjoying all the great advice. I seem to have a different concern. I started narrations with my almost age 7 dd. She loves to talk (to anyone that will listen- real or not ) Her narrations can go on for a long time. She can sometimes retell the smallest details of what she has read. I may ask for a chapter and will end up getting a synopsis of the whole book. (she is know reading beginning chapter books) At what point do I stop her? Am I suppose to redirect? Or do I just patiently let her keep talking? I find myself trying to intercede with specific questions to keep her on track. She begins to describe something she read and will remember something from another book or situation. (kind of reminds me of the If You Give .... Numeroff books ). I guess she's kind of like me . Any advice, suggestions are greatly appreciated. I want to have a good idea and feel for narrations before our school year starts. I plan on attempting a very CM style of learning this year. I've been practicing this summer. HELP! |
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Hi Jenny!
I haven't forgotten about your great question!!!
Detailed narrations...or...narrations and the photographic memory...
I'll share some ideas that can be helpful with super detailed narrations.
** Narrate regularly! Don't wait until your child has finished a book to ask for a narration - have the child read a little each day and narrate after each small section.
** Recall something brief from yesterday's narration and ask the child to narrate forward. My children have great memories and a penchant for super detailed narrations. Since they narrate chapter books, instead of beginning with, "tell me everything you remember about this chapter," I prompt with, "yesterday you told me about Marco Polo doing______, what can you tell me about today?" It's the briefest of re-caps, lets the child know that I remember where we are in the book, and that I'm ready to hear a narration on the current reading.
** If my child wanders off too far from a narration on a tangent, I bring them back in with a prompt. At that point, it's no longer a narration, but a conversation. I might say something like, "that sounds interesting and we can visit about that later. Right now, I'm very interested in hearing about 'x'
** I allow young/new narrators to offer details without discouraging them, but ask for fewer narrations over-all.
** If an older child is really getting bogged down in details, I will model a summary narration to them a few times. (I learned about this from Lindafay - Detailed Narrations and the Summary) I read a chapter from our current read aloud. I then let the children know that I'm going to offer them a summary narration of that chapter and I do so. I do this every day for a week and then I begin asking my older children to offer me one summary narration a day. It does challenge their organization of thought, but in a good way. I don't ask for every narration to be summarized, just a few.
** Once my older daughter started writing her narrations (around 5th/6th grade), she naturally started summarizing more. When she moved to written narrations it really helped her oral narrations become more succinct and clearly thought out.
This is one of those things that challenged me for some time because my oldest child has a near photographic memory and her narrations were super-detailed, but now that she is in high school, I'm blessed to be able to see with more perspective how this is just another example of Charlotte Mason's methods working over the long haul. Those great detailed narrations allow a young child to tell back and retain information while exposing them to a variety of beautiful literature and writing. Over the years they're building vocabulary and skill in communicating. When they begin writing, they begin to organize and curtail details as they learn to summarize and get their narrations out on paper. And after that, they begin to slowly become more comfortable with writing, adding in more detail. I guess what I'm saying is that I've found that those long super-detailed narrations have their place in the process.
Hope this gives you some ideas to start with.
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JennGM
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So very helpful, Jen, because that is our problem here. Lots and lots of details. Don't tell me that only girls like to talk...I would have to disagree, at least with my boys!
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Thanks Jen, this is great. We'll keep working on it . I've also started reading some of Lindafay's posts. As for the writing I appreciate the insight. I don't require any writing of this child, except for copywork (which we started two years ago) and yet she has started her own story book. It is broken down into chapters! I love it. If she has nothing to do she picks it up and starts writing down her story. I've listened to it but don't plan on making any corrections or comments to modify. Can't wait to see this process of narrations blossom and develop.
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Jenny
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JennGM wrote:
| So very helpful, Jen, because that is our problem here. Lots and lots of details. Don't tell me that only girls like to talk...I would have to disagree, at least with my boys! |
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Nope. Can't say it's just girls. My second son also has near photographic recall, almost more so than my oldest. And his penchant for recalling details and understanding/visualizing the mechanics of something he's read about adds to his narrations...significantly. For my son, I sometimes incorporate a sketch with the oral narration because he really *needs* to convey his understanding of how something he's read about works.
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
| I don't require any writing of this child, except for copywork (which we started two years ago) and yet she has started her own story book. It is broken down into chapters! I love it. If she has nothing to do she picks it up and starts writing down her story. I've listened to it but don't plan on making any corrections or comments to modify. Can't wait to see this process of narrations blossom and develop. |
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That's so great, Jenny! It's just so amazing when children naturally gravitate to expressing themselves in the written word! I've seen this same thing with my own children. And like you, I am so rewarded and blessed to be a part of my children's education. I was reading this the other day in Charlotte Mason's Philosophy of Education, and it's so true!
Charlotte Mason, Volume 6, p. 27 wrote:
| It (the Charlotte Mason method of education) is twice blessed, it blesses him that gives and him that takes, and a sort of radiancy of look distinguishes both scholar and teacher engaged in this manner of education... |
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Twice blessed - we the parent/teacher as we implement and learn alongside, and the student so enriched by beautiful literature, taking ownership of knowledge through narrations, guided by good habits... Well, I could go on, but you get the idea!
Glad the ideas for detailed narrations were helpful!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Topic: narration, how to begin
