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juliecinci
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| Posted: Jan 01 2006 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
I'm going to give this one more try:
I absolutely think that what we need to do is to guide our teens and even younger towards always, always looking at education as preparation for vocation. |
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Just curious. Do you think that what I'm saying or some of the others are saying is not in line with this comment? I am devoted to preparing my kids for educational opportunities as well as being attentive to what their vocations may be.
Guidance implies giving them opinions and opportunities and support to get there. Right?
Are you also saying that guidance implies a requirement?
Elizabeth wrote:
| To that end, I also think that we might need to be "the bad guy" who reminds the child occasionally that preparing oneself to answer God's call will inevitably require some sacrifice and obedience. |
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How is it being the bad guy to remind people that vocational choices imply sacrifice?
We talk about sacrifice often in this family. So much so, I have kids making choices to sacrifice things that would be givens in other families. One daughter recently gave up Christmas gifts to give money that we would spend on her to a cause she believes in.
This same daughter is suffering through chemistry in order to fulfill her college prep requirements.
My oldest (who is not college bound, though he has now taken a college course and got an A) routinely sacrifices time and energy to serve his family, to help friends, to give financially to those who need money.
Elizabeth wrote:
| We can't always do exactly what makes us happy or what we are passionate about and be faithful to our vocation. I don't think 18 is too young to learn that. |
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I don't think taking on a vocation you are not passionate about is much of a service. If we are to be mothers, for instance, we must want to have children, must be passionate about their growing up to be well-rounded people, we must be willing due to our devotion to get up in the middle of the night, give up great looking figures and more.
If a woman told me she wasn't passionate about mothering, I would not be too excited about her becoming a mother until she really got that passion/commitment inside of her.
And sometimes we move just one step backward. We can see that we are passionate about following the Lord, about being faithful to God which will lead us to making the sacrifices required in a vocation.
A priest or pastor must want to make housecalls and hospital visits and to preach on weekends and so on. For those who work in jobs they don't like, part of what leads them to sacrifice their happiness in work is their passion for provision - for providing for their families.
Part of what motivates sacrifice is the passion for the vocation - the belief that you really are called, and believe that you are suited to that task.
It is important to think about more than a job, I agree. Becoming a responsible father or mother, husband or wife is every bit as important as discovering what kind of service you will offer the world. And as parents we get to live that out before our kids as well as talk about it so that they have full disclosure of what it takes.
From very early on, kids who are in families where parents live out sacrifice from a place of genuine passion for their vocations model that very blend.
Elizabeth wrote:
I took more than a handful of classes that neither enthused or inspired me in college. They were required courses. Was it the ideal educational experience? No. Did I learn somehting about the subject? Yes.Did I learn even more about diligence and discipline? Absolutely. |
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Certainly. These are all good. But you could have failed the courses and quit college. You could have said no. You could have dropped out and moved to Europe for a year of traveling.
Rather, you bought into the vision of getting a college degree and so you found within you resources to succeed in classes you didn't like.
What do you do with a child who refuses to find those resources within himself because he doesn't believe in the goal? At what age do we take seriously a child's unwillingness to accept the vision we offer and promote?
That's really the crux of this discussion. How far do you coerce an almost adult? What carrot or stick do you wave before him or behind him to make him do what he does not value, support or believe in?
Elizabeth wrote:
Education isn't limited to school. I believe that with all my heart and I have lived that wholeheartedly in my adult life. But education isn't limited only to those things which make us happy, either. {snip} It's our job as parents to help them understand that the easy road, the one that makes them happy today, might not necessarily be the joyful road. I think we do them a disservice if we say that education is all about doing what you want. |
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Elizabeth, do you see a difference between "doing what you want" and "doing what you believe in"?
I suppose where I lean is to the direction of Charlotte Mason's principle of excellence - that it is better to do less with commitment, full attention and excellence, than to slog through something without commitment or a desire to do it well.
One of the lessons kids learn when they become responsible for their own educations is that they can make decisions they regret. This, too, is a good lesson. Leaning how to hear and value input is also an important part of growing up.
Willa (I believe) said that one of her kids got behind in math and was troubled by it. This happened with one of my kids too. But what a different way of thinking for the child! Usually they have no sense of needing to do math, but just that they must do it, with gritted teeth.
When they see that they need it and value being "caught up" they have shifted to the willingness to suffer to do what they perceive to be of value. Suffering through embracing the choice to suffer is very different than being made to suffer without understanding or consent.
Elizabeth wrote:
| We need to equip them--by showing them when they are young--to be prudent and disciplined and sober and faithful good stewards of the talents and abilities bestowed on thm by their Creator. To expect any less of them would be to fail in our jobs as parents. |
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I might add to this list that it is also the job of a parent to teach their children what it means to be responsible for one's choices, how to overcome regrets, how to discern the difference between what gives pleasure and what gives service and to know when to pick which, to learn to hear the leading of God for themselves in addition to hearing the input of trusted parents and counselors.
We certainly as parents have the power to control how our kids spend their time and especially in service of goals we set for them. I'm just a bit more unwilling than some to play that card too often.
I rely more on dialog, shared vision, modeling, support, guidance, and creating opportunities to motivate taking on goals rather than requiring them to meet goals I set for them.
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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juliecinci
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| Posted: Jan 01 2006 at 7:44pm | IP Logged
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P.S.
Elizabeth I've done some thinking and praying since I read your post and replied. I hope I am not coming off as not taking your concerns seriously. I really do. I highly value advanced education and have shed many tears over the concerns I have had that my oldest son has not chosen that route nor responded to the kinds of requirements and then expectations and then support we offered him during his high school years.
What has happened for me is that I've come to peace about who he is, rather than what my goals are. I certainly am speaking out of my context and realize yours is different, causing you to have different questions.
As I've shared before, I have two in line who are following the college prep route without any flak, even if it is challenging to them and they have to work hard to get there.
So for me, the unschooling odyssey is more about who is making the decisions of how our kids will spend their days. As long as I am offering repeatedly the vision and support needed to achieve their goals (and I do lots to give them what I think are compelling reasons to go for a higher education), then I am learning to trust both my kids and God for the results... even if they don't match my imagined future for them.
I have loved your book Real Learning and hope that you find a way to keep that spirit as you rethink how to prepare your kids for college.
Blessings,
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Mary G
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Wow ladies -- this is a great discussion.
One of the major benefits to homeschooling -- with it's eclectic, structured unschooling or full-bore unschooling -- is that we show our kids that they have some ownership of their own educatoin.
I think in the "traditional" school model -- kids don't really ever learn this. The school or the school system tells them what they should take, when and how much. The school pays lip-service to choice by offering electives (but tells the student what he/she must have accomplished for graduation).
But then what happens when college comes around -- all of a sudden they have choices and it can be mind-boggling! I have a neice who took a semester of Swahili for the fun of it and now is interested in pursing it further, possibly even going to Africa....If the student is used to being told what to take, they may never expand their horizons or look at other options -- it can be too scary!
That's another part of the equation -- just because a student thinks they know what they want to be when they grow up, doesn't mean they will do that. I was a print journalism major and it took me almost 20 years to see my name in print -- but I had a wonderful 20 years of growing and experiencing all different kinds of things and ALWAYS LEARNING  !
Kathryn said it much better than I am:
Encouraging our children to think through the possibilities of this balance and to be prepared to think outside the box when considering their future is an important part of home education IMO. It seems to me this is closely related to encouraging children to think in terms of vocation in the Catholic sense, rather than jumping on the secular "career" or material success bandwagon. &n bsp;
I know I've re-thought this ideal. I bought into the model of the "woman of the 80s" -- fast-paced corporate career, one MAYBE two children, too busy for thinking or enjoying life. I hopped off that bandwagon in the early 90s when my dh died of cancer -- it just ain't worth it! I am now re-married to a school teacher who already has a PhD in biology, just got a MTS three years ago, is working on a Bioethics Licentiate and has applied to get a PhD in Bioethics. He loves learning and the kids see this. They see that we're doing what we think is best, even if we don't have the biggest house, live in a suburban "gated community", or go on lavish Christmas trips -- altho we did drive the 45 minutes to my in-laws and spent New Year's weekend  !
Long story short -- like so much of homeschooling -- when we as adults model the behaviors we'd like to encourage in our children -- reading and living to always know love and serve God to the best of our ability -- all will come out right in the end.
That's where my Faith must come in. Altho there, unfortunately is always a niggling doubt that I can achive this for my children -- I have to ALWAYS remind myself that God will take care of them as well, if not better, than he has taken care of me!)
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Lissa
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| Posted: Jan 02 2006 at 5:22pm | IP Logged
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Shoot, I wish I'd had time to participate in this conversation from the beginning. (Not to mention just about every other conversation here!)
Lots of interesting discussion going on in this thread.
One thing I've noticed about unschooling is that it seems to generate more passion, both positive and negative, than any other educational style I've come across. People who are interested in it are constantly challenging, questioning, exploring its merits and possibilities. Is it the best possible way to raise a happy, fulfilled child? Or is it a kind of negligence, risking the development of slothful habits? You'll find heated opinions on either side.
When Elizabeth and MacBeth graciously opened an unschooling forum here at 4Real and I agreed to moderate it, we immediately ran into tension among posters: was the Unschooling board to be a place where those who are passionate advocates of the approach could meet for support, encouragement, and idea-sharing? Or was it to be a place where interested-but-not-convinced folks could grapple with pro and con questions?
After some discussion, we decided that it could be a place for both flavors of discussion. I had the brilliant idea of establishing an ongoing "Tough Questions" thread, where the are-you-sure-this-is-a-good-idea conversations could take place without undermining the sense of support and community that the already-pro-unschooling folks were looking for. (See the moderator's note here.) And I must humbly apologize for completely falling down on the job here. I was supposed to be alert for the Tough Questions threads and move them into that folder. We WANT these discussions to flourish. We also want there to be a place for the totally pro-unschooling conversations to flourish also.
I absolutely think this board can sustain both types of conversation. I think there's a place and a need for both. I know I for one have learned a great deal from the questioning/challenging discussions, even when they get tense. I also greatly appreciate the enthusiasm and energy of the discussions among the people who are completely on board with unschooling.
With that said, I'm (belatedly) fulfilling my promise and shifting this particular very interesting discussion to the "Tough Questions" thread. Some tough questions are being asked and answered here, and I hope the conversation will continue.
Meanwhile, if you're a passionate advocate of unschooling, or a tentative beginner, or (like me) something of a yoyo, swinging away from unschooling at times but always winding back, we hope you'll find this a good place to come for inspiration and support.
I'll add a link to the continuation of this discussion in Tough Questions as soon as I remember how to move the posts.  Here it is!
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Lissa
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Jan 02 2006 at 5:32pm | IP Logged
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You can't move a whole thread . This really is my mistake. I jumped in where I shouldn't have. Julie, no apology is necessary. You asked me to explain myself; that's totally fair. I didn't do a very good job of it. Sarah, on the other hand, said it much better with far fewer words. 
While I'm so uncertain about definition that I won't again assert that we unschool, I can say with some authority that we look to the child and tailor education to his or her own needs. Always. Sometimes, that need might be school in an institution (can't play college soccer without college and you can rest assured that playing college soccer wasn't my idea but my child's ).
I think it best that I refrain from posting here since I still can't quite get what differentiates unschoolers from "Real Learners." On the Real Learning board though, I think I'm pretty safe .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Lissa
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| Posted: Jan 02 2006 at 5:52pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I think it best that I refrain from posting here since I still can't quite get what differentiates unschoolers from "Real Learners." On the Real Learning board though, I think I'm pretty safe . |
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Oh no, please don't feel like you can't post in Unschooling! Just seems like right now your unschooling thoughts fall in the "tough questions" category, right? That's what we invented it for! 
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Elizabeth
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Actually, when I think about it, I don't have a whole lot of questions. We have a plan for our 17 yos. He knows what he wants and it includes college. We will have to do some teaching to the test and it will have to be done under time constraints. This rubs my idealistic self the wrong way and has my compulsive-planner self wondering about the next one up. But it is what it is.
The next child in line is only 13. He's a self-professed late bloomer. We don't have to figure out whether he'll go to "real school" for college until that question presents itself. In the meantime, he'll play by the family rules. Those include completing a legitmate amount of productive work (which can include bookwork, writing, reading,math, drawing, clay, and making propulsion weapons out of cardboard for little siblings) every day. We do require certain things. For instance, he has assignments in theology in order to prepare a notebook for our pastor before confirmation. He would let this go until just before the interview if I'd let him. I won't let him. I know he wants to be confirmed and I know preparation can't be done last minute. He'd be devastated if he had to wait another year but he does need help planning his time and using it wisely.At the end of everyday,he has to send his dad an email detailing what he did. This does many things: it keeps my traveling husband apprised of home; it keeps me on my toes so that I don't let this particular child wander off to do absolutely nothing or to get into trouble; it lets the child know that dad is truly interested in something other than just athletics; it trains him to know that if he does indeed want to play basketball in college, he will have to learn that you must "make grades" to remain eligible.
The third child wants to be a professional soccer player when he's sixteen. Fortunately, I acutally have some experience with that.  Bobby Convey was educated in our home from the time he was fifteen until he got a diploma courtesy The Learning Community. He is a real estate whiz and an accomplished pianist. He also became a committed Catholic under our roof. Oh, and he's a hotshot in Reading, set to play in the Premiership and will play for US in th World Cup. His education here looked nothing like a typical high school course of study.
The fourth child is only nine. She wants to be a wife, mother, and writer of Little House stories. I actually know someone who could help with that ...
Numbers 5 and 6 want to be Jedi knights or rulers of Narnia. Works for me!
Number 7 has Daddy so wrapped around her little finger, she's no need for big goals right now. She just asks and gets whatever she wants...
I saw where the conversation was going under the new thread, and I really can't go there. What works in this house might not work elsewhere. It's not pure educational philosophy. It's just what the Foss family does after prayerful consideration of each and every child. I have no idea if it's unschooling or not. And different people might give me different answers to that question.
So, looking at the title of this thread--indeed of this forum--I think I'll just leave it to better minds than mine to figure out what exactly unschooling is.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Cindy
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So, looking at the title of this thread--indeed of this forum--I think I'll just leave it to better minds than mine to figure out what exactly unschooling is.
>>
I guess I'll throw in my last 2 bits here, though I haven't read all the latest posts.
I don't think this is about figuring out what unschooling is or isn't. Those that embrace unschooling see it as a lifestyle- something that is hard to explain.
I think it is really about knowing our kids and doing what is best for them. Methods are a tool. Just one of many tools. We can try to figure out what might work best for our dc, and it is very helpful to glean ideas from others.
I feel privledged when other take the time and risk to share, without fear of judgement what they do that works in their homes. That is how we really support each other. That is the beauty of our internet homeschool communities, I think.
We as homeschoolers have the unique privledge of cheering each other on. That is a primary role of the internet, too, for those of us who don't have kindred spirits in our neighborhoods. I think it is not only a gift it is a responsibility.
There are many ways to homeschool. We have to remember that no one person has the line on this. Except Christ. In my view, as long as we are connected with our kids, parenting as best we can and helping them to heaven, the rest is really moot. And I am thankful to have the cyber friends I do that have helped me along on this journey for the past 9 years.
God Bless-
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Cindy in Texas
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mrsgranola
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And this confusion is why I *so* resist labels... call me an eclectic, relaxed, unschooling, classical, Charlotte Mason Catholic home educator!
And I even cringe at having to pick a category to post under on these boards.
JoAnna
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Lissa
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mrsgranola wrote:
And this confusion is why I *so* resist labels... call me an eclectic, relaxed, unschooling, classical, Charlotte Mason Catholic home educator!
And I even cringe at having to pick a category to post under on these boards. |
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I agree--that's one reason I dropped the ball on the Tough Questions thing. A great many of the discussions that start out in the unschooling-inspiration category eventually become unschooling-questioning conversations, and we can't go shifting every other thread to the TQ topic.
Sometimes I've wondered if there isn't a need for two forums (fora?) --Unschooling Debate and Unschooling Support.
Some folks are head over heels in love with unschooling and grow weary of having to defend its merits all the time.
Other folks are testing, exploring, weighing the pros and cons of a way of life that really is quite different from other kinds of education, and those conversations are important too.
I enjoy both types of discussion! Just not always at the same time.
As for labels, I couldn't find any that fit so I made up my own. I call us Tidal Homeschoolers. We have high tide times when we charter a boat and set sail with purpose and direction, deliberately casting our net for a particular type of fish. And we have low tide times when we amble along the shore, peering into tide pools and digging in the sand, or just relaxing in the sun. In my family, the low tide times happen much more often than the high tide times, and my experience has been that the low tide brings far more rich learning and joy to us than the high tide. But the chartered excursions are worthwhile too, once in a while.
Hmm, I feel a blog post coming on....
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Lissa
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mrsgranola
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OOh, I like that, Lissa. Tidal Homeschoolers... I've referred to us as cyclic homeschoolers before so that makes perfect sense to me. Kind of like a seasonal drunk (but that's another story...) 
JoAnna in NC, whose oldest dd turned 10 today!!!!!!!!
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Willa
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Lissa,
I call our family Seasonal Homeschoolers -- covers the same "cycle" thing but a bit less energetically, perhaps -- we do things differently in different times in our lives.
I haven't caught up with all the posts yet. Aidan ended up in the hospital with some pneumonia and we just made it home. Right now he seems to be healthier than I am . Hope I can make sense!
I think my perspective is not an unschooling-debate one right now, but more of an unschooling-support one. Given that sometimes we need to and are able to see farther than our kids can and do, does some parental direction/guidance fit under the unschooling umbrella?
I have been thinking it does fit. Cindy's post, summing it up as a lifestyle, a way of looking at your children and the way they live and learn -- that's what I've been getting a glimpse of during our season of exploration with unschooling. It's extremely hard to put into words. I've been feeling a new sense that our lives are an adventure, each day having unlimited possibilities. I suppose it is what Leonie used to call "serendipity".
I have still been assigning math. Pat Farenga says that "unschooling is allowing the children as much freedom in learning as you, the parents, can comfortably bear." So there's some point beyond which I'm not comfortable, now.
Yet, as Cindy said, unschooling has given me a new lens or way to focus on our lives and it's been a good thing for our family. I'm trying to figure out the parameters -- if there's some level of parental direction beyond which I can't call myself an unschooler.
To me it still comes down to the fact that parents, by default, DO direct and guide with everything they do and don't do. Kimberly Hahn says parents are teaching all the time. Unschoolers choose a different means of teaching their kids -- how is it different, exactly? Since this is one of the questions that seems to come up periodically even among seasoned unschoolers, I don't think I'll be able to come up with the ultimate answer when my head is already spinning a bit
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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juliecinci
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WJFR wrote:
I have still been assigning math. Pat Farenga says that "unschooling is allowing the children as much freedom in learning as you, the parents, can comfortably bear." So there's some point beyond which I'm not comfortable, now. |
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Gosh your posts are really resonating with me Willa. I love the above. When we embarked on unschooling, my dh and I made a pact that we would not do anything we couldn't fully support emotionally. It was a wise decision. It helped me not to do things I'd resent later. You know you don't believe it when you feel resentful later after "making the choice."
WJFR wrote:
To me it still comes down to the fact that parents, by default, DO direct and guide with everything they do and don't do. Kimberly Hahn says parents are teaching all the time. Unschoolers choose a different means of teaching their kids -- how is it different, exactly? Since this is one of the questions that seems to come up periodically even among seasoned unschoolers, I don't think I'll be able to come up with the ultimate answer when my head is already spinning a bit
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This is why I started the thread about the nature of children. Ultimately, parents teach and parent according to how they see children.
We are all teaching and we are all exercising our authority in our children's lives. The differences between how one family does it versus another can be found in how they understand the roles of parents and children.
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Karen E.
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WJFR wrote:
Lissa,
I call our family Seasonal Homeschoolers -- covers the same "cycle" thing but a bit less energetically, perhaps -- we do things differently in different times in our lives. |
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And I jokingly call us the Schizophrenic Homeschoolers, because we have seemingly disparate methods at work in our house. Hmm, "Tidal" and "Seasonal" sound so much calmer and healthier.
WJFR wrote:
Given that sometimes we need to and are able to see farther than our kids can and do, does some parental direction/guidance fit under the unschooling umbrella?
I have been thinking it does fit. |
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I completely agree. Yes, I do offer parental direction and guidance, and we also often unschool. I don't think the two are diametrically opposed.
As the parent, I have the responsibility to fill in the gaps for my children where immaturity and ignorance reign. But, it's all about how I do that. Because I like to plan, and because I like to try to cover all the necessary bases, I make certain plans for each year. If I never made a plan, certain things would never get done, and I need those certain things to feel comfortable. BUT, the plan is always flexible, often tossed aside after just some dabbling, and often confirms that my kids have: a.) already learned the stuff through some informal, unschooling method, or b.) would learn the stuff better through an informal, unschooling method.
I'm still requiring some math, too, Willa, because I'm fairly certain at this point that my children will be called to a college path (though I'm entirely open to the possibility that they may not ... we don't know where God will call them, and that's why we have to keep listening) and for one of my kids, math is just not her strong point. So, in order to just keep her "fluent" in it, we plug away with steady progress as our goal. I believe that will serve her well down the road. (If I'm wrong, and even these basics turn out to be useless for her, well, at least I haven't spent hours with her in tears trying to turn her into something she's not, such as a trig wiz ....)
WJFR wrote:
It's extremely hard to put into words. I've been feeling a new sense that our lives are an adventure, each day having unlimited possibilities. |
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It IS hard to put into words, but you just did. Our lives are an adventure, and we truly don't know where God will call us. (I'd be foolish to try to predict what my children will end up doing ... I know my parents would never have predicted that they'd have a Catholic daughter ... I never would have predicted, in my radical feminist days, that I could love my husband and children so much that it makes me ache). I don't want try to turn my children into the perfect poster children for homeschooling ... I don't even know what that would look like. I just want them to be faithful human beings, open to God's claim on their lives, and ready to follow it, whether it means going to college to be a brain surgeon, or getting married and becoming mommies, or entering religious life, or something in between somewhere. (And even this goal is iffy ... I can't ultimately control their faith lives. I can only model and teach and pray for them.)
WJFR wrote:
To me it still comes down to the fact that parents, by default, DO direct and guide with everything they do and don't do. Kimberly Hahn says parents are teaching all the time. |
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This is at the heart of it for me. I have said, from the start of our homeschool (we've been at it for five years now) that my kids learn SO MUCH from the things we discuss in a spirit of love. I try to come at everything from this perspective, to let them see why I believe what I believe, why I enforce what I enforce, and why I let go of what I let go of (how's that for a rambling sentence? Ugh.) The point being that I approach it all with love -- that's not to say I always SOUND loving. I wish I did. But, I want them to understand that I view everything through a lens that shows me that God loves me and wants me in Heaven with Him someday. That makes teaching my kids about everything from math facts to s*x so much easier. Nothing is meaningless, because it's all viewed through that lens, but at the same time, nothing is so important that it can overshadow the bottom line, which is love for God (and how we're living out that love for God.)
I hope this is making sense. I'm coming into a conversation that's been going full steam ahead, and I'm way behind ....
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: What is unschooling?
