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teachingmyown
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Over in the early childhood forum, there has been a discussion going on about Classical Conversations (CC). This is a program based on the Classical model of the stages of learning: Grammar, Dialectic and Rhetoric. The same ideas are espoused by Laura Berquist and Susan Wise Bauer.
I have never been a big believer is memorization of facts. I believed instead of giving kids the why's and how's, the "meat" if you will, instead of what I thought was dry, textbooky names and dates. We do memorize poetry and math facts, although I did not press this on my older two much to my dismay now.
Last night I went to an informational meeting for CC. They started the presentation making the case for memorization. They contend that young children, K-6th grade approximately, aren't ready for the why's and how's. Everything is still concrete to them. They are like little sponges soaking up all they hear. So the idea is to fill them with seemingly random facts which they can't fully understand in order to lay down the foundation for future learning. For example, if they memorize timelines without "learning" about each time period, then later when they meet the information again, they already have those dates and that big picture of time stored in their heads so they can concentrate on the "meat" of the subject. Also, memorization gets harder as we mature, so trying to get teenagers to memorize the periodic table is much harder than if they had memorized it when they were little.
They also discussed how education has gone away from the classical model over the years and this is why children in schools find it so hard to learn. The children are not taught the "grammar" or basic facts and language of the subjects they are trying to learn. So, they just flounder around trying to absorb what they aren't familiar with and mature enough to understand. When you think of how many children are "learning disabled" and the atrocious level of education of college freshman, you have to wonder if this could be the key. My mother always says she can't understand why back in her day there would be 40-50 kids in a class and they were able to behave and learn. (She still remembers all the poems and dates she learned! I can't remember anything!)Some of this is certainly societal and due to the media age of children who can't pay attention. It could also be, however, that back then children were being taught at a level they could understand. It is similar to all of us cradle Catholics who never learned our Catechism, but certainly learned that Jesus loved us!
It makes sense to me, but still I am not sure. Obviously compared to the public school model of "modern" education, the classical model and all that memorization is far superior. I would like to hear thoughts on how it compares to other theories that we discuss here, CM, Waldorf-y, unschooling, etc.
What do you all think? 
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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Maryan
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Neat question!
We like to memorize poetry just because kids seem to delight in repetition and recognizing something. So it seems there is something to it... however, we don't do tons of it. And have been wondering if we should do more.
I'd love to hear about a comparison with other styles, etc.
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LisaR
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Molly, sigh, I have no time to respond right now, maybe in a few days, but wanted to say, the proof to me is in seeing my just turned 4 y/o daughter ramble off huge amounts of memorized material, comfortably! (not to mention my older boys)I did not even have her registered in a class, she has picked up from the CC memory work observing in the back of the classrooms, or from our review work at home.
I realized that I would rather have my kids memorize more "useful" information, too, such as periodic table, math formulas, english and Latin grammar, History timeline sentences etc, where The Harp and the Laurel Wreath (L. Berquist) kind of bogged us all down.
its pegs, you know?? and they will always have this!
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HeatherS
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Molly,
I'd like to respond to your post too when my littles are asleep, but I don't know how much I can add experientially since my eldest dd is only 5-1/2, and we have all of one year of CC under our belts. Which we love! I do know what I have drawn from having been a history major in college (and what I wish that I had had academically prior to that!) and from the bit of Montessori perspective I recd. in formation to become a Level I catechist in the CGS.
heather
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Bookswithtea
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Well, I am interested in reading everyone's thoughts...I've never been a fan of memorizing facts in the early years. I keep thinking about people who have left the Faith saying, "Oh, I memorized blah blah blah the nuns made me memorize but I never *understood* things until xyz church down the road told me the simple story of Jesus." 
I have always figured that these people either were told and didn't want to hear it, or they were in bad programs that never really did present the entire truth. Lord knows there were plenty of bad programs in the 70's, but some of these people were raised in the 50's when memorizing the BC was very popular. My mil went to Catholic School for 12 yrs and still thinks that the Catholic Church teaches that 9 First Fridays is a guarantee to Heaven and no amount of my talking till I'm blue in the face will change her mind on it. She thinks we "just don't know." 
I'm willing to be converted to the idea that there is wisdom in memorizing at the young ages, though. I wonder if this is one of those "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater" things, kwim?
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Cay Gibson
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teachingmyown wrote:
It is similar to all of us cradle Catholics who never learned our Catechism, but certainly learned that Jesus loved us!
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Molly,
I think the informational meeting you went to is right-on.
I've debated this myself but so many examples...including the one you posted above...has me a true believer in memorization.
That being said...I have to remind myself on a weekly basis to have my children memorize more than their prayers and math facts. It's a discipline.
The example you posted above speaks for itself. I just got home from a wonderful mission at our church and it was mentioned that Catholics can't defend their faith because they don't know it.
I saw how wonderful memorization was with my last child. Just last year she was in Kindergarten and her lovely teacher Ms. Carla made sure those little Ks didn't leave her CCD class without clearly knowing the immediate answer to:
Who is our Pope?
Who is our Bishop?
Who is our Pastor?
Who is Jesus' mother?
Who is Jesus' father?
Who is Jesus' stepfather?
What is the name of our church?
Where did she appear?
How many books are in the Bible?
Name them.
How many gospels are there?
Name them.
How many sacraments are there?
Name them.
And so goes the list.
All the 5 yr old and 6 yr olds could harp the answers to you as clear as a bell. She even used Annie at an KC Open House to demonstrate.
Some could say she was playing the role of prideful teacher. Well, let me say...I was one prideful mommy.
teachingmyown wrote:
| ...they already have those dates and that big picture of time stored in their heads so they can concentrate on the "meat" of the subject. |
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I was never a big proponent of memorizing dates because I hated it so much in history class. Ah, but then when do they start prompting you to memorize history dates? In junior high, of course. You could care less about dates by then...unless it was a date to go to the movies or a dance.
Now I look at memorization as the "bones" of learning. You add the "meat" as you go on.
And I will humbly admit that I didn't do that great of building bones in my older children because I thought memorization was so boring and repetitious at one time that I didn't enforce it. Which was silly because weren't we all taught our rote prayers by memorization at our mother's knee? I hope my younger two have a better skeleton to build on.
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HeatherS
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I do see, in this very first year of using the classical model as the spine of our learning, how much our girls (5-1/2 and 4-1/2 - and our 3 year old!) have retained. Memorizing skip counting by 2's and 5's and everything in between and up! has helped my eldest dd in her Right Start math. And we're only just beginning that...
We have been memorizing the Veritas Press (I expressed my opinion of them on the thread on CC) this past year. These past 2 weeks we have been studying the orchestra at CC, and this week they focused on Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6 and listening for the different instruments in that piece. When we got home Jessica, our 4 y.o., wanted to read about him and Margaret, 5, wanted to see where his picture (if we had had one) would fit into the timeline cards. Would we even be having these conversations if we hadn't started, albeit gently, our memory work as the spine of our homeschool days? I think, wow, this could be very cool to see how this progresses as they get older and delve deeper into these areas with questions and eventually, hopefully, master it.
As I see it, the memorization (which they enjoy doing!) has helped them in amazing ways already at an extremely young age begin to acquire the *grammar* of many different areas. I also see a desire to make connections of their own initiative via reading living books and seeing where things fit along these mental pegs that they are acquiring. To me that seems like the marriage of several different philosophies in a simple, natural type of way.
I remember struggling through many upper division history classes at a small Catholic liberal arts college. I simply did not have an adequate frame of reference of history AND I was learning to memorize as I was memorizing huge quantities of information. But, I do not think that memorization is only beneficial if you are planning on attending a small liberal arts college. I think that the mental discipline afforded through memory work can be quite beneficial as a child gets older and adds more meat to the bones of that memory work, to sort of paraphrase Cay.
With regards to the Faith...I have often wondered how one could leave what they love. How could someone leave a Faith that they know and love? Was the love missing? Was that relationship with Christ missing? That is where I have found the Montessori approach to catechesis in the CGS so appealing for our family. The CCC and liturgical year, as the spine and basis for memory work, and the experience of CGS seem to be a happy union in the spiritual formation of our little ones.
There is so much beauty and truth in these educational philsophies and perspectives, and I know that each perspective is as different as the charism in each family's homeschool.
heather
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Willa
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I think memorization is actually far easier for an older person. At least, this has been my experience and the Ignatian manual published by Kolbe Academy has said the same. To this day I can memorize things FAR FAR more easily and thoroughly than any of my pre-high school kids. My guess is that verbal memorization requires a layer of abstraction that small kids don't have. They can pick up chants and so on, sure, but it's just words to many of them. It's a separate process teaching them to actually retrieve and apply it appropriately. (no doubt CC includes this too, please don't think I'm trying to criticize a method that sounds very intriguing to me).
HOWEVER, and this is a biggie, memorization has the possibility of being more formative in the younger years. When I memorize things nowadays, it has a tendency to slip out again quickly, whereas with the kids the acquisition is more permanent. And I do think it's important for kids to train their memories and as Laura Berquist puts it, stock their imagination with the beautiful and useful.
John Holt wrote in How Children Fail about the problems of memorizing things without a corresponding understanding. You see kids who have memorized math formulae but have no understanding of the situations in which to use them. Similar with the catechism, I suppose.
So unschoolers would probably say that kids memorize naturally when they are interested in something or have acquired some understanding of it. My second-born is practically an encyclopedia on any area of personal interest -- ranging from history data, to football statistics, to tree lore (various interests over his life span).
My delayed child has had great success with Montessori methods. The concrete active process helps him consolidate his understanding AND memory.
Charlotte Mason believed in poem memorization. Also, narration can be understood as a way of making mental "hooks" into a subject. She said that children naturally remember things to which they have paid attention. But narration gears the mind towards paying attention and also, narrating helps the mind hold on to knowledge. It does seem to be true.... when I mentally narrate a reading, it provides a framework .... I remember I said or thought something and then the whole subject opens up in front of me ... retrieval is usually my problem so narrating helps with that.
Other CM techniques for natural memory building would be century books and nature notebooks.
While I was in the car thinking about this topic it occurred to me that for small children, verbal memorization is NOT that concrete. Sure, the verbalization may help form the tracks of language acquisition -- and to me that is its biggest strength. But there is a different between "verbal knowledge" and "real knowledge".
When I first started hsing, the classical "trivium" method was the one I gravitated towards almost immediately. Back then it was very much about memorization and the "grammar" of subjects. This was 15 plus years ago. It sounds like there is something of a revival going on now. Memorization seemed to have its purpose (and still does, I think) but most classical hsers I knew quickly ran into its limitations as a single approach. They would usually move to a more language-based approach that still included memorization, but not so much just drilling isolated facts. ... rather, the memorization is like "pegs" as Cay said.
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LisaR
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Willa wrote:
Memorization seemed to have its purpose (and still does, I think) but most classical hsers I knew quickly ran into its limitations as a single approach. They would usually move to a more language-based approach that still included memorization, but not so much just drilling isolated facts. ... rather, the memorization is like "pegs" as Cay said.
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Willa, do you think perhaps it was because these homeschoolers had their oldest dc growing out of the grammatical stage, though?
I DO think this is a plus of CC in particular. there are no "isolated facts" everything meshes together so well!
I initially balked at memorization/classical method, because frankly it seemed unappealing to me.
I would read about how many poems my dc should memorize, etc. It seemed the opposite of practical and useful!
However, I would have to say my younger dc have learned so much in many disciplines through memorization as the springboard this year.
in fact, it is even "grounding" and "ordering" in retrospect many of the Sonlightish/Sonlight mega-lit heavy studies we have done in the past, NOW they finally are putting so much more information together- with the many pegs they have memorized!! 
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teachingmyown
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Great food for thought here. I am trying to process what has been said so far and come to some conclusions of my own. Dh and I discussed CC and memorization in general last night and he does not agree with it. I am still leaning toward the idea that memorization which is then followed up with the "meat" does make sense.
I think of all the Protestants I have known and read who were drilled in Bible verses all their lives. Now, it is true that many of them never learn to read the verses in context, but at the same time they have a treasury of God's words to draw upon when they need them. So, that would be an example of the good of memorization when paired with the further study of the topic with maturity. Little kids don't need to understand everything now, but can be helped by knowing their verses.
Pondering here!
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Molly
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julia s.
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I think memorization has a purpose in getting the mind to focus on specific information (maybe even information someone would not even be interested in initially) and purposefully placing in the mind. Sort of like mental weight lifting.
So much of what is in our minds drifts there (for better or worse) that I think there is a case for being intentional with out attention.
I'm still mulling through other ideas about memorization.
Just some food for thought.
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Erin
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Molly
Great discussion. Lots of food for thought here, so I'll just jump in 
Background first; we have progressed from a fairly relaxed child-led approach with a heavy emphasis on literature to in the last couple of years realising that our older children have missed on some vital points by lacking in any memorisation. Change has been evolving here over the last couple of years.
Fast forward to this term in particular. Everyday the children have what we call ' Daily Drill' this only takes half an hour. On their list (excel spreadsheet) are; Catechism, Poem Memorisation, Spelling, Times Tables and Typing Tutor. This work is mostly done independently or to each other, I listen to dd7, and partially to ds9.
Results: We have seen a huge growth in independent learning. A huge growth in self-discipline and in completing tasks. All big areas that needed addressing here. Also the children believe they are achieving more, they feel as if they are learning more; I agree
From being a strong naysayer of 'drill and kill' I now see a place. Well for drill maybe not overdoing it though I do love to hear the poems the children are learning and to hear siblings join in as they have picked it up listening. Dd15 memorised Paul Revere's Ride this term! I think it does something to the brain. Thinking seriously of drilling geography facts next. I remember my grandfather saying all the rivers of Australia.
Anyway a little of our journey.
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teachingmyown
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Erin,
I really like that idea. I am trying to figure out how memorization should look at home, and if I need to use an outside program to be sure that I am accomplishing it. I could really picture that set "drill" time being a huge benefit.
Keep the ideas flowing ladies!
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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CatholicMommy
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I know very little about CC, but I have a response to something you wrote about what was said in the talk: I agree that young children can and SHOULD learn lots of facts- they are very fact-oriented and have absorbent minds to take it all in... but I would also put forth a balance to that: there should still be some "whys" and "hows" so it's NOT just random facts, but there are connections that they can understand.
I am very much a Montessorian and feel that, when done properly, it really provides the best of both worlds: whys/hows with the memorization.
I love Julia's phrase about "mental weight-lifting" - it's so true! If we don't practice memorization at a young age, it is harder to pick up later.
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CrunchyMom
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Willa wrote:
| Sure, the verbalization may help form the tracks of language acquisition -- and to me that is its biggest strength. But there is a different between "verbal knowledge" and "real knowledge". |
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I have been thinking lately that this is its biggest strength.
I find, though, that the challenge I see myself facing is passing on things I don't have myself. We've been reading Ralph Moody's Little Britches series aloud (my husband has been reading it at bedtime), and I was struck by two things this week:
A) There is a passage where the children and the mother are all sitting around hooking a rug and *reciting* Julius Caesar. They all had 2-3 parts they knew and did the whole play together--correcting the mother who was over tired from work! The oldest child was 12!
The whole play!
and
B) The books are autobiographical. However, Ralph Moody didn't write them or anything else until he was 50. He only had an 8th grade education, but he was able to write a decent novel when he decided he wanted to! He said in interviews it was because he read good writers. I also think it was likely also because he had *memorized* the BEST writers, yk? The family also read Dickens and other classics together.
Now, there are frequent references to the mother's reciting poetry and then the older children reciting "that poem mother does."
This made me think that it is so much more "real" to have the mother passing on this knowledge orally and naturally as they work together.
However, you can't pass on what you don't have, and I have very little poetry and even less Shakespeare inside me. So, in order to give my children something I don't have myself, the setting/method has to be more contrived. But this led me to believe that this sort of memorization IS "natural"--it just can't be quite so natural for my family given my own limitations. If I want to pass on that same sort of tradition, I will have to create or implement a method to do so.
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LisaR
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CrunchyMom wrote:
This made me think that it is so much more "real" to have the mother passing on this knowledge orally and naturally as they work together.
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this is where CC has been invaluable to me. parents who are not tutors are "observing" (learning!) right along with their kinds in the classrooms, and then it is easy to just mimic the method/material at home with your own family white board, and throughout the day- in the car, on walks, etc.
beleive me, the kids go into their memory work at the most interesting times!! so sometimes it is parent-led, and other times child-directed.
Molly, I am assuming that you did not go and observe during a CC classtime.
Do you have time to do that? and/or attend a full free one or three day practicum for parents covering the Classical Methodology?
lastly, they provide a (free, I think) CD explaining the classical approach to education, that might be helpful, too.
I do not want to say CC is the only or even perfect way to implement a classical education in the home.
however, for this Oregon-raised wild child of the 70's-'80's, it has been such a confidence booster and an aide in many ways to our entire family!!
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Willa
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julia s. wrote:
So much of what is in our minds drifts there (for better or worse) that I think there is a case for being intentional with out attention.
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I like this, Julia! More and more I see my homeschooling as a way of slowing things down enough for the children to really ponder. For example, nature study, reading challenging books, narrating, picture study -- are all ways of building intentional focus on something worthy of study.
Also, am very interested in your thoughts, Lisa. It's probably true that where memorization fell flat for some people was that it was isolated drilling and that they kept it up for older children, perhaps. Also, I noticed in the earlier days of classical homeschooling that some people seemed to have almost a punitive tone to their memorization work -- whereas the CC has a more family-friendly and relationship bonding feeling to it, from the way you and others are describing it, which I think would make a difference, too.
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Willa
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LisaR
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Willa wrote:
| It's probably true that where memorization fell flat for some people was that it was isolated drilling and that they kept it up for older children, perhaps. Also, I noticed in the earlier days of classical homeschooling that some people seemed to have almost a punitive tone to their memorization work -- . |
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yes, and yes! I think sadly, this is why I jumped off the Classical home education boat the first time around, it seemed SO far removed from real living education, and proud of it!!
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dh Tim '92
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julia s.
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This may end up being long, but I'm trying to flesh out what I'm thinking here.
Let me back up to when my first son began hsing. I, like Willa, gravitated to the classical learning. In the books they talked endlessly how young children are little sponges (or parrots depending on the book). But whenever I tried to get my son to memorize anything he would cry and say it was too hard and he didn't understand. For years he always seemed kind of drifty -- facts were just words, and words were something you played with, but didn't actually mean much. I often wondered if he would ever get past this phase. He was good with patterns and he would occasionally spout out something relevant, but he couldn't remember it later if he did.
But he was a kid who had to memorize social cues just to function in the world and he had sensory integration miscues that he was reconciling. He was using his memory, but it was for functional purposes first. Now that he is past those formative problems he can memorize many things and enjoys doing so even though technically he is past the "grammar" stage. He likes to argue now too -- that didn't slow down.
My second son was just the opposite he has always been verbal despite the fact that he has severe speech problems. Even when he was young and no one could understand him (not even me) he would talk and talk. He didn't care(and neither did I). You would have thought to hear him that all his attention would have to be focused just in the communication, but for him he breathes language. He can easily memorize anything he puts his mind too.
I think if you are having children memorize and holding them back until they spout out the facts as they are presented you are going to hit a wall. There is a reason some can't get their minds to focus on outside random facts when they have so many intrinsic reasons beckoning their attention.
I think all the reasons for why memorization is good are valid, but that does not mean memorization will happen at the same pace for all children.
I'm not sure if this is what Willa was talking about when she mentioned verbal knowledge or not. Willa, if you could explain that I'd like to understand.
Lindsay, I think you are right. If poems, Shakespearean sonnets, songs, etc. are to be given to our children "at our knees" then we have to have them in our heads to give, if not then the process will be more artificial -- but maybe this can still feel like a "living" and "real" learning too if we give it some thought. Something for me to ponder.
Well my baby rises again and I'm off to do mother's work.
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julia
married to love of her life
with ds12 ds8 ds3 and ds1
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Erin
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| Posted: April 02 2009 at 5:00pm | IP Logged
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Crunchymom wrote:
Now, there are frequent references to the mother's reciting poetry and then the older children reciting "that poem mother does."
This made me think that it is so much more "real" to have the mother passing on this knowledge orally and naturally as they work together.
However, you can't pass on what you don't have, and I have very little poetry and even less Shakespeare inside me. So, in order to give my children something I don't have myself, the setting/method has to be more contrived. But this led me to believe that this sort of memorization IS "natural"--it just can't be quite so natural for my family given my own limitations. If I want to pass on that same sort of tradition, I will have to create or implement a method to do so. |
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Lindsay
I'd love share what we are doing as I am so thrilled with the results.
On Wednesday we have a half hour sharing of poetry, reading from various books,(I read) then the children choose what poem they would like to learn for the week (a long one may take a fortnight.) Every morning for a week they spend a couple of minutes (more for a long poem) reciting the poem to themselves (or mum.) Then on Tuesday night at tea they recite the poem to the family, so Dad gets to hear too. We are coming to the end of the Term now and they all have a lovely little selection and the rest of us have picked up a bit of others poems by overhearing too. 
This really doesn't feel contrived or forced it seems very natural.
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Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Let's talk memorization!
