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folklaur
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| Posted: June 26 2008 at 5:54pm | IP Logged
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The formal discussion got me wondering about this.
Now that I have one graduated, and I can look back, I have often felt much like Willa described - not always that I would have been more 'formal', but more 'intentional'. (I think that is a GREAT saying, btw.)
But this makes me wonder, especially about programs like Seton, or like MODG which seems so emphasize a lot of memorization at the younger levels, etc. Those work for people too, don't they?
Is there really one, true "better way"? Or are there better ways for each child, parent, family? But - I rarely hear people talking about their homeschool as a "joyful adventure" when Seton is their backbone - but maybe I am just not privy to those conversations? But looking through so many of the blogs on here - where Seton may be utilized for a course or a class but not usually the whole kit-n-kaboodle - there is LOTS of talk about joy, and learning. Here, where often the idea of "less is better" (or just as good) there is so much talk of joy, of explorations, of family celebrations, etc. And....well....it isn't usually orderly...but a wonderful, spirited, blessed jumble of love and learning and hope and ideas.
I once heard someone say, the longer that you homeschool, the more likely it is that you will be an unschooler (or some form thereof.) Do you think it is true?
I go through cycles - and it seems that when the homeschool catalogs come out in the Spring, with their formal lesson plans looking like we would accomplish so much in such an orderly fashion, - I suddenly feel more inadequate, like I am not doing enough.
But then I come here and feel reassured that good books, strong teaching of the Faith, and family togetherness -with maybe a little Math thrown in - will often be sufficient.
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Martha
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I think the goal is the question.
If a formal plan helps some mothers reach their goal - whatever that may be, then I think that's great.
And I think those goals change every year with every kid.
For example, one of my goals with my 2 oldest is to really ramp up our science studies. If left to my own planning, we'll dig in the dirt and draw animals all day because the upper level stuff seems like so much information that I get over-whelmed and shut down. I plan on using Kolbe's physical science course, but I'm not enrolling. I just want the plan laid out so I can have something already set out for me. I also plan on doing math, then science at the start of our school days so they aren't left last unfinished and/or not done.
All the other stuff?
I have books and all, but we don't follow a strict routine on them anymore. And I don't push memorization as hard as some do. The balt. cat is probably the only thing I'm really strict about memorizing.
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Sarah M
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cactus mouse wrote:
- and it seems that when the homeschool catalogs come out in the Spring, with their formal lesson plans looking like we would accomplish so much in such an orderly fashion, - I suddenly feel more inadequate, like I am not doing enough.
But then I come here and feel reassured that good books, strong teaching of the Faith, and family togetherness -with maybe a little Math thrown in - will often be sufficient.
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me too! well said- 
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LisaR
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I've been reading up lately about the origins of Catholic/Classical education, and the intent. I do kind of feel like I "missed the boat" so to speak, seeking a more liturature based method of study, without first pounding in those "pegs" (memory work) so that the kids would have a place to hang the info that they gleaned and acquired.
My SIL has 6 kids 12 and under. she spends about 45 min-hour PER WEEK of intense memory work with the kids, and it is amazing then how much they retain, and have a place to put all the other great stuff they learn.
does this make sense??
So I am feeling led to back to the basics, grammar and Math very structured, and lots of time and leeway for rabbit trails, etc...
I think that my kids also like more order than I do, but part of it may be that they ARE in the grammatical stage of learning still (except oldest ds) and it is natural to want this??
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LisaR
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I guess what I am pondering (not to hijack!  ) is do we turn to elaborate homemade plans/ or methods, or 1000.00 curicula (a la Sonlight) because we CAN, and it "looks good/appealing" to us as parents, and we think it will be the appeal for our kids, vs. giving our kids the education that they are naturally ordered to desire and NEED??
We might look at it as "drudgery" (memory work/textbook/traditional learning) but is that just because most of us are products of the instant gratification age??
I'm seriously thinking about going through the Baltimore Cat with all of my kids! a far cry from Atrium....
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LisaR
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cactus mouse wrote:
But this makes me wonder, especially about programs like Seton, or like MODG which seems so emphasize a lot of memorization at the younger levels, etc. Those work for people too, don't they?
Is there really one, true "better way"? Or are there better ways for each child, parent, family? But - I rarely hear people talking about their homeschool as a "joyful adventure" when Seton is their backbone - but maybe I am just not privy to those conversations?
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I will say that for oldest ds, the 2 years that he used Seton/enrolled (7th and 8th grade) gave him SUCH a feeling of satisfaction!! I did not stress out about feeling pressured by "them" and I think that my positive attitude, coupled with his LOVE of the order of it all made for great years!! and, he read MORE books those two years than ever before. I felt like school was kind of compartmentalized but in a good way. I did not realize that I had been trying in the past to make sure it all (life) was "education" and it was so freeing to feel like Seton was "enough" and he could go to the local State Park and just goof off, ride a bike, hike and run, without me pointing out all the flora fauna ad nauseum.
But I do think we might not be the typical Seton user. or at least the stereotypical one we all think of...
I still have a relaxed attitude, and Seton is working for us, not the other way around..
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Willa
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LisaR wrote:
I felt like school was kind of compartmentalized but in a good way. I did not realize that I had been trying in the past to make sure it all (life) was "education" and it was so freeing to feel like Seton was "enough" and he could go to the local State Park and just goof off, ride a bike, hike and run, without me pointing out all the flora fauna ad nauseum.
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I think I use Kolbe/LCC 3Rs spine in the same way.
We have our few "discipline" subjects and I certainly don't necessarily try to make them fun. They are worthwhile and doable and short -- little to no busywork.
That gives me a feeling of freedom with all the other subjects.
I was just reading this Multum non Multa and it sort of expresses how it works for us.
I used Seton our first year hsing but for me it was too much. The materials were nice, I liked them -- but 14 workbooks in 2nd grade (this would be over a dozen years ago). And I felt guilty if we didn't do them all. That is me -- a little, done pretty well is more manageable than a lot, if my head is about to explode.
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Willa
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I should mention that I got the "intentional" term from Elizabeth's blog, where she was talking about housekeeping -- but the word stuck in my mind, since I realized that I can be very structured sometimes and still not very intentional at all.
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folklaur
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Oooh, Lisa, I like what you are sharing...and yes, I was thinking about Sonlight, too. Especially their guarantee sig line, "The way you wish you'd been taught!"
And it is...but I also have a basis for comparison. Compared to being bored silly in some of my high school classes, I sure WOULD have liked t read-read-read all day.
But....
I never stressed memorizing multiplication tables with dd. I mean, she can multiply, but she doesn't have it memorized the same way I do from 3rd grade when Sister Elise had us all chanting them. (I was absent for 8 times tables and I STILL stumble with them sometimes  .) Is this kind of what you meant when you said:
"think it will be the appeal for our kids, vs. giving our kids the education that they are naturally ordered to desire and NEED??"
Yes - Memorizing the Baltimore Cate is much different from Atrium...but I am thinking it may be just as important...I like that I can do both  . (Know what else? My Mom, at 68 - can STILL recite the Balt. Cat. I think it would be much better to fill up their neural connections with memorized catechism as opposed to fast-food jingles (be honest - how many of us can STILL recite the Big Mac jingle? There's a waste of brain cells, huh?)
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folklaur
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LisaR wrote:
| I did not realize that I had been trying in the past to make sure it all (life) was "education" and it was so freeing to feel like Seton was "enough" and he could go to the local State Park and just goof off, ride a bike, hike and run, without me pointing out all the flora fauna ad nauseum. |
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Oh, I like this. My dh used to always want to use every moment as a teaching moment. And well, sometimes, I think you need to just let them be. After I talked to him, he said his dad was like that too. (Both of dh's parents are public school teachers.) Whenever dh or BIL would ask a simple question - teh answer was a lecture and teaching lesson. DH/BIL eventually stopped asking. We don't want our kids to ever stop asking.
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folklaur
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Willa wrote:
That gives me a feeling of freedom with all the other subjects. |
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I like this a lot!
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MaryM
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cactus mouse wrote:
| ...(be honest - how many of us can STILL recite the Big Mac jingle? There's a waste of brain cells, huh?) |
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Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onion ...on a seseme seed bun!
Do I get a prize for my wasted brain cells? 
This is a very good point about memorization, Laura. I have on many occasions wondered how/why the children memorized some lines they hear in a movie recite them verbatim after hearing it once and still not get the times tables after numerous times. Got to work on that here.
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Kristie 4
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cactus mouse wrote:
Willa wrote:
That gives me a feeling of freedom with all the other subjects. |
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I like this a lot!
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Ditto for me on this one.
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Kristie 4
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Way to go Mary M.!!
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monique
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I have to say for me using a pre-packaged curricula has pretty much taken all the joy out of homeschooling for all of us. I feel like there is a ball and chain around our necks until every last bit of it is done. That is why I'm here-to learn better/different ways. I know there has to be a better easier way so that I can enjoy being with and teaching my children again. I know part of this is my problem in not being able to intertwine pre-packaged with CM or Classical.
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Red Cardigan
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Interesting discussion!
I use textbooks, but not a curriculum. I need textbooks because I'm lazy and I don't trust myself to make the kids work. But I don't use a curriculum because I don't want the "ball and chain" feeling either.
Everybody's different! I admire the moms who have so much creativity and plain old gumption to keep the lessons going even without a textbook "crutch."
But when it comes to things like memorization, I've had a lot of help from an unlikely source: one day, for example, my youngest dd starts rattling off the names of the different brain parts--and when I asked how on earth
she knew them...
...why, "Fetch," mom, on PBS kids.
Maybe next year I'll let "Fetch" teach some science, and have Alton Brown "guest lecture."
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Cactus Mouse:
I once heard someone say, the longer that you homeschool, the more likely it is that you will be an unschooler (or some form thereof.) Do you think it is true?
This is so much like me right now since 12 years of homeschooling! I used to have the kids do EVERY SINGLE PAGE of everything! Now it is so different.
AND the funny part is I don't feel guilty. They are learning so much!
So, maybe Cactus Mouse's quote above is true?
I have used MODG and Seton. And a lot of it has worked for us. But, I used them very loosely. I didn't do every single lesson and skipped around a bit.
This year our backbone was Latin, Math, and Religion. The rest of the subjects were VERY relaxed!
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LisaR
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cactus mouse wrote:
I once heard someone say, the longer that you homeschool, the more likely it is that you will be an unschooler (or some form thereof.) Do you think it is true?
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for me, the opposite would be true?? I used to rabbit trail our days away, and subscribe to the belief "as long as they are home"... kind of like the worst homeschool day is better than the best day in school...
but now, I am seeing a wisdom and a value in some structure.
I used to blame the lack of control in schools (that we as homeschoolers hear of , or think is there)was due to the kids/parents, but I now think part to blame is on the decline of the education mission/system in general.
The memory/classical model just does not lend itself to alot of "freedom of expression"/acting out, kwim??
this is how those sisters handled the class of 60 kids, or how the one room school house thrived.....
Is there a harm in treating the three R's like "work" and then play like play? I think in both brick and mortar schools and in the homeschool the pressure could be to make it all so fascinating, interesting, hands on, etc and then what really is retained??
thanks for letting me ramble here!
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JennGM
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MaryM wrote:
cactus mouse wrote:
| ...(be honest - how many of us can STILL recite the Big Mac jingle? There's a waste of brain cells, huh?) |
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Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onion ...on a seseme seed bun!
Do I get a prize for my wasted brain cells?
This is a very good point about memorization, Laura. I have on many occasions wondered how/why the children memorized some lines they hear in a movie recite them verbatim after hearing it once and still not get the times tables after numerous times. Got to work on that here. |
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I can rattle it off, too!
I recently read the revised General Catechetical Directory and was struck by the section on memorization. Of course, this regards religion, but it really got me thinking. I'm nursing, so I can't type it all out again, but I do have the quote here on my blog. Just good food for thought.
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Willa
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Laura wrote:
I once heard someone say, the longer that you homeschool, the more likely it is that you will be an unschooler (or some form thereof.) Do you think it is true?
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Such an interesting discussion! I think in total I am about the same in the mix, but in a different way.
I used to move from "Quite Structured Indeed" (when I was feeling on top of things) to "Default Unschooling" (when I was preg, moving, or just burned out).
Now -- I don't know if its age, experience, finding what works for us, or what -- I'm less inclined to set ambitious plans and wipe us out following them.
On the other hand, I don't get bored or burned out by a bit of structure through the year.
Hard to explain, I guess!
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Willa
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: 'formal' discussion
