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DominaCaeli
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Not sure if this is the right place for this...
After experiencing many infertility problems, my uncle and aunt had two children using IVF. They now have a two year old and a baby. My uncle is only ten years older than I am and our children are the same ages, but we are not all that close--we see them every few months or so. They are not practicing Catholics (their children are not even baptized). They know that we are faithful to the teachings of the Church and that we disagree with IVF, though we have never had a direct discussion about it with them. It has never specifically come up in conversation, and I have always hoped it wouldn't--not because I am ashamed to defend the Church's teachings, but because I am not sure of the language to use with them. I am thinking, though, that they may still want more children and may revisit this process again, and I want to be prepared if the issue arises.
I cannot think of a way to talk with them about the sinfulness of IVF that does not seem to "wish away" (so to speak) their beautiful children. If I say they should not have done it, I can imagine them countering with, "If we had not done it, Nicholas (their son) would not be here. Would you prefer that Nicholas not be here?" How do you answer that? Technically, it is true, and no matter how much I try to explain how the sin of IVF in no way lessens the fact that child is a beautiful creation of God, I still feel like they will take this as an insult to their children.
Any suggestions for me?
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Helen
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Celeste,
I know what you mean. This is such a difficult area to talk about--especially if you are blessed with fertility talking to someone who isn't.
It must be even more difficult with family members.
I remember, way back when, I used to speak to people about abortion. There always seemed a way to speak about the subject without being totally, blastingly direct. For me personally, when it came time to speak to others about the immorality of IVF, I could never come up with a way to speak about it well.
In my case, because I have fertility problems, I decided I just would come right out, when the subject was brought up, and say,
IVF is immoral.
And just take the scathing remarks that follow, silently. No arguments, no fights, just the truth in humility.
If you've said this to your family once, I'm not sure you need to say it again. But, certainly pray that they would come to know the truth.
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SallyT
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I really don't know. In real life, if encountered with this situation, what would probably happen would be that my husband would say something true but not at all diplomatic, and then spend three hours wrangling with the person, while I cringed in the background praying that nobody would go away crying. That would be my effective way of handling it, which should inspire you no end.
All I can do is offer prayers and at least some empathy -- some years ago, when I was pregnant with my now-almost-6yo, I went to dinner with two couples, very old friends, both of whom were dealing with infertility, one of whom were actively pursuing having a child with a surrogate mother. It ultimately didn't work out, and they must have been starting to be aware that it wasn't going to, because at one point during the evening, the wife leaned over to me and said, "Well, if the thing with So-and-So doesn't work out, maybe you could be our next surrogate." I don't remember what I said -- I wasn't Catholic at the time (she was and is, oddly enough), so I think I stammered out something about being done after this one, or whatever. I was completely weirded out; my husband, who wasn't at dinner with us and only heard about it later, was outraged. He wasn't Catholic then, either, but he had a lot of theology that I at the time didn't remotely have.
Just being there, very obviously pregnant, with a group of people who wanted babies and couldn't have them, was awkward and delicate enough, and I was trying to bend over backwards not to somehow show off or to make them feel badly . . . I couldn't begin to think of a way to approach the surrogate issue and mostly just wished they wouldn't bring it up. It was all like a gigantic elephant sitting not only in the living room, but right there on the dinner table, squashing the saumon en croute. And I'm sure they couldn't help feeling that my pregnancy was a slap in the face to them . . . it was a joyful occasion all around.
So -- no words of wisdom at all, just some fellow-feeling, and hope that somebody else will have a better answer.
Sally
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crusermom
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That is a really tough one. Much of my family is also way off base on these issues. But, I think if they are not Catholic and don't specifically ask you for your opinion - it would be best not to say anything. In my experience, it just causes hurt feelings and sometimes broken relationships. I would pray for them and live your Catholic faith as best as you can. If they ask you for your opinion, it would be good to be prepared to have a good answer as to why the Church's teaches as it does - not to just say it is immoral.
Having a medical background, I sometimes get asked by relatives questions such as what method of BC they should use when nursing, etc.... Then I feel, since they are asking me, I can give them some info on NFP. O/w, I just try to live my Catholicism as best and joyfully as I can and hope there is something there that is attractive to them.
I need to remember to pray for all couples with this cross.
Mary
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Helen
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crusermom wrote:
| If they ask you for your opinion, it would be good to be prepared to have a good answer as to why the Church's teaches as it does - not to just say it is immoral. |
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Yes, Mary I agree.
*If* you have the luxury of being asked your opinion. I would love to give a loving reason why IVF is immoral.
Often, no one asks.
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SallyT
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I'm actually not sure that it remotely occurs to most people that there could possibly be anything wrong with it -- the technology has been around for a while, and "everybody" uses it. They've heard that Catholics are weird about birth control, but how could anyone possibly disapprove someone's having a child any way they can?
That's not what I think, but it's a fair summary of what my extended family, and probably most people at this stage, do think. Which is probably why people don't ask: they don't think there's a question.
Sally
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Helen
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Celeste, I'm not sure this is going to help you but I've been thinking over the times that I had to say,
IVF is immoral. I'll share my experiences. This is all ancient history ... most happened before I had any adopted children. I guess, after adopting trans racially, no one bothers to ask my opinion or brings up IVF in front of me. 
Once I walked away from a conversation with a lovely woman who mentioned using IVF. I said nothing and spent the next few days in anguish. Why didn't I say something? WHat should I have said? I brought this to the Lord in adoration, asking Him to make up for my mistake and to tell me what to do.
About a week later, this same woman asked me to help her prepare her to make a sacramental confession. She asked me,
What should I confess?
Big help from the Lord on that one!!
Another time, I was taken aback on the phone when a woman said she was using IVF. Surprised, I said
That's immoral.
Boy, did I get an earfull about the Pope intruding on people's affairs. I did try to continue talking with her but it was after this phone call, I decided I would not discuss this issue with people unless they asked for more clarification.
Another time, around the table, someone brought up IVF. I just said quietly, that's immoral. (Not really wanting to say this at all.) To my surprise, this person, who was not Catholic, said,
I always had a feeling it wasn't right. Could you explain why the Church say this?
Prayer, study and looking for the good in our neighbor really helps.
I know from experiencing the pain of infertility that not being able to have a baby can make you really crazy. The pain is different from the pain of pregnancy or other pains in this life. Infertility can make you feel desperate, abandoned by God, hopeless, useless and obsessed. So, maybe acknowledging the great pain or the natural desire to have a baby could also help people to soften the impact of saying IVF is immoral.
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Stephanie_Q
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Another angle you could take would be to offer an alternative..."I've been reading about NaProTechnology, which helps a lot of women who have struggled with infertility." Then you'd have to be prepared with an answer to why this way is moral and IVF and other methods are not.
As far as "insulting" their children, I've heard of the same problem with parents who didn't want to get an annulment - if the marriage never existed, then they have "bastard" children and they don't want to do that to their kids, so they just get a divorce and remarry and live in sin. You can also compare to children conceived by a mother who was raped. Even if the children were conceived as a result of an immoral act, that doesn't make them any less precious in the sight of God - or their family who loves them. It's the opposite...I can't think of the words I want to say, so I googled my thought and found this from a Methodist sermon: "God's glory revealed through sin can really be summed up using the words of Romans 8:28 which states, "We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Notice this passage doesn't say that in good things God works, but rather in all things God works. This means that even in the midst of our sin God continues to reveal his glory with the hope that we will turn back to him, seek his forgiveness, and receive his mercy....So God's glory is revealed through the consequences of our sin, and his glory is revealed through his mercy and love for us, in spite of our sin."
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DominaCaeli
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Thank you all for your thoughts, ladies. There is so much good advice here, and I appreciate the conversation.
I do want to say that my husband and I are in a unique position in that we also have fertility problems (I know it doesn't seem that way from my signature line!  ). After having much difficulty getting pregnant, we brought home our son through international adoption. My aunt and uncle know about our experiences and we have found a small comraderie with them on that topic. Every time our adoption has come up in conversation, we have talked about what an immense blessing it was to us, how we are so thankful to have our son, and how we plan to adopt again. My aunt actually seemed really interested in adoption when we first came home with our little guy, and she asked a lot of questions about the process. I shared about our experience with her, and I prayed that they would consider going that route for their next child. But they went through IVF again just a year later. 
Stephanie, your suggestion about perhaps working NaPro technology into the conversation is a good one--I think we actually did mention it when we were finally able to conceive our daughter (we are Creighton-model NFP users), and perhaps a good opportunity will come up again now that we are pregnant again (we haven't announced it to our families yet). I'm not sure how useful NaPro could be to them with their specific fertility challenges, but it could at least get the ball rolling in terms of conversation about the morality of various conception methods without being an out-and-out discussion of IVF itself.
I also want to say that I'm not sure they will want more children anyway--they are definitely more the "one boy and one girl and we're done" type, and now that they have "one of each," I'm not sure that they will revisit IVF. I pray that they won't, or that they will consider adopting if they want to add to their family again. But I think too of the embryos (babies) they might have under ice, waiting to be implanted, and I wonder what will happen to them.
Anyway, what I most wonder is not whether to bring it up or how to bring it up but what to say when/if it finally does come up. I admire the approach of stating the facts and then being silent, Helen, and I think it very much resembles Our Lord in the midst of His persecution. I have always loved that detail about His Passion. My aunt is a very genuine and questioning person, and I do believe that if IVF did come up in conversation, she would follow up with more questions--that is her nature. I think the Church's teachings are fairly straightforward, and I don't really have a problem explaining them, but I still feel torn as to how to answer that counter-argument I presented in my OP: "Would it be better if Nicholas weren't here?" It just seems like such an honest and natural question, but I wouldn't quite know what to say. I mourn for them in the pain their infertility must cause them, and I feel like they deserve a fair answer, but I don't know what that answer is.
Ah, family. Complicated, no? All your thoughts have been so helpful, and I appreciate your helping me to work this out. I'm going to think through all of your suggestions during my prayer time today. And I appreciate the empathy too--it's nice to know that I'm not the only one a little daunted by conversations like these.
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folklaur
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DominaCaeli wrote:
| but I still feel torn as to how to answer that counter-argument I presented in my OP: "Would it be better if Nicholas weren't here?" It just seems like such an honest and natural question, but I wouldn't quite know what to say. |
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I was kind of hesitating to post on list right now, because I really felt kind of attacked in the other thread for sincerely seeking a logical answer.
But - your post, your question - Exactly!!! This is exactly what I was trying to say in the other thread - the exact point I was trying to wrestle with and work through.
As you can see, there are a lot of well-meaning non-answers to this question. Things like it is a mystery, and we don't know the will of God, etc. Which are lovely sentiments, but really don't answer the question you posed one bit.
I don't think there is a good answer to your question. We know IVF is immoral. There is really no way to express this without at the same time implying that the children conceived this way would not be here if not for an immoral and sinful act. It is very likely that a parent of a child conceived using IVF is ONLY going to hear that their child shouldn't exist. Because if you tell them they acted immorally, that they sinned, that they did something wrong - the implication is that their child should not be here. Precious or not, Willed by God or not, the fact remains that if the parents had not acted immorally, sinfully, there would be no child.
Yet, we say - and sincerely mean - that each child is precious.
I don't think you will really get a good answer to your question, because I don't think there really is one.
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Willa
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SallyT wrote:
| I really don't know. In real life, if encountered with this situation, what would probably happen would be that my husband would say something true but not at all diplomatic, and then spend three hours wrangling with the person, while I cringed in the background praying that nobody would go away crying. That would be my effective way of handling it, which should inspire you no end. |
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Ha, that is my approach too. My husband isn't one for wrangling though.
I do think there is a boundary issue with some of these difficult topics. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what the boundaries are, but when I think over all the people I come in contact with over the course of a day or week -- the vast majority are not living a Catholic lifestyle. Normally I don't call them on their lifestyle unless I am asked for my advice. I hesitate too, because I have faults in this regard myself, not with doctrinal issues per se -- I am in accord with the Church on all doctrinal issues -- but in how I live out my life -- after all I am called to sanctity and regularly don't achieve it.
I am not saying to be silent but that the giant part of the iceberg is not the "spoken" part, but how we live.
Sorry, not much help.
I don't know much specifically about IVF but it occurs to me that most artificial fertilization methods involve creating extra embryos which are presumably then discarded. Your uncles' children then could have siblings who have never had a chance at life. That may be one way to approach your qualms about the process if you do bring it up. Praying for you in this.
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Barbara C.
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As for the specific question you are concerned about, I think an answer similar to what Willa is saying.
"Of course, I am glad that Nicholas is here, but there is a concern about your other babies that have been created but have not had the chance to be born."
I don't know if it is better or worse, though, to be encouraging the in vitro process to be continued. I would assume better as long as no other embryos are created. 
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onemoretracy
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cactus mouse wrote:
DominaCaeli wrote:
| but I still feel torn as to how to answer that counter-argument I presented in my OP: "Would it be better if Nicholas weren't here?" It just seems like such an honest and natural question, but I wouldn't quite know what to say. |
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I was kind of hesitating to post on list right now, because I really felt kind of attacked in the other thread for sincerely seeking a logical answer.
But - your post, your question - Exactly!!! This is exactly what I was trying to say in the other thread - the exact point I was trying to wrestle with and work through.
As you can see, there are a lot of well-meaning non-answers to this question. Things like it is a mystery, and we don't know the will of God, etc. Which are lovely sentiments, but really don't answer the question you posed one bit.
I don't think there is a good answer to your question. We know IVF is immoral. There is really no way to express this without at the same time implying that the children conceived this way would not be here if not for an immoral and sinful act. It is very likely that a parent of a child conceived using IVF is ONLY going to hear that their child shouldn't exist. Because if you tell them they acted immorally, that they sinned, that they did something wrong - the implication is that their child should not be here. Precious or not, Willed by God or not, the fact remains that if the parents had not acted immorally, sinfully, there would be no child.
Yet, we say - and sincerely mean - that each child is precious.
I don't think you will really get a good answer to your question, because I don't think there really is one.
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Laura, I know how you feel struggling with an issue like this internally. We have a daughter that is adopted and looking back it would seem that we would not have had her as our daughter if I had not had my tubes tied, yes a sin to be sure. Honestly, there are many blessings and positive changes in my spiritual life that would not have happend if not for sin, on my part or others but in no way do those outcomes justify the sins.
So, people have asked me, "Well I know you regretted the sterilization, but aren't you glad you did it bc if you didn't you wouldn't have Mary Clare?" This is always hard to respond to. It is more confusing to others now that I have had a tubal reversal and am pregnant!
Perhaps, the confusing aspect of trying to understand God willing a child in the midst of a sin (r*ape, IVF etc.) is that as humans we view and experience time as a line and of course God is not confined by time and space as we are. We can only look back and see how every choice and decision affected our present. God can actually 'see' forward though.
We can look to our past and think "If I had not done X, Y and Z I would not be in this situation" However, God knows and knew we would be here in this exact circumstance always and exercised His will according to His divine plan even in the midst of our free will.
The mystery of how free will and God's will interact has intrigued me for several years on my journey back to Catholicism. I am at peace internally now and I picture it this way: in every moment and every second of everyone's existence and minute decision making, God knows every outcome of every decision that could possibly be made and the way His will will interact with our free will choices. This includes the mulitude of choices and outcomes of every human ever in existance now or ever and He 'sees' all of this at once, not in a linear fashion.
So when I made the choice, out of my free will, to sin, God already knew one outcome could be that Mary Clare would be ours even though she was in China. Even so, there were several choices to be made and chains of events to follow on my part and many others to get to the point where she was placed in my arms.
Despite my sin, and despite the evil of the One Child Policy in China, we are united as a family. Maybe it can be explained that way. It is not because of my sin she is my daughter, it is despite it. Viewed through the timelessness of a lens of faith in God, a child born of IVF does not exist necessarily because of the sin of IVF, but despite it. I believe that can be logically in accordance with divine will and with His infinite mercy.
I don't know if that answers the question for you about God's divine will and mercy for every conception, even in sinful circumstances. Maybe I have been as clear as mud But, that is the answer I found to my own dilemmas about sin and blessings seemingly born of sin at least (no pun meant really, but I do enjoy a pun!)
So, I tell people "No, I am not grateful that I had the tubal ligation. The ends never justify the means. I am totally grateful however, that God chose, with His infinite mercy, to bless our family with Mary Clare despite my sin."
FWIW, I have a sweet Catholic friend who had gone down the IVF route. She and her husband had twins already and were 'done'. After learning the teaching of the Church, they decided to go ahead with all of the frozen embryos. Now they have 6 great kids, including two sets of twins!
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Helen
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Tracy -- that is the most beautiful witness of God's goodness! Thank you for telling the story of God's power in your life.
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SuzanneG
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DominaCaeli wrote:
Would you prefer that Nicholas not be here?" How do you answer that? |
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I had a conversation like this with my cousin several years ago. They have 2 dc via IVF. When posed with this quesion I think I said something like:
"No, of course, I don't wish that. Obviously you were meant to have Nicholas as your son, but perhaps there were other ways besides IVF. Even through sinful circumstances, God creates good....in this case, Nicholas."
(Although I wouldn't have said "sinful", but simply for understanding here)
I also wanted to highlight these parts of Tracy's post cuz it helps to answer the "How do you answer the question of 'Would you prefer that Nicholas not be here?'"
onemoretracy wrote:
It is not because of my sin she is my daughter, it is despite it. Viewed through the timelessness of a lens of faith in God, a child born of IVF does not exist necessarily because of the sin of IVF, but despite it. I believe that can be logically in accordance with divine will and with His infinite mercy.
I don't know if that answers the question for you about God's divine will and mercy for every conception, even in sinful circumstances.
So, I tell people "No, I am not grateful that I had the tubal ligation. The ends never justify the means. I am totally grateful however, that God chose, with His infinite mercy, to bless our family with Mary Clare despite my sin." |
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Chari
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Thank you, Tarcy for sharing. I like your use of the word "despite"......it makes it much easier to respond to this and a whole lot of other questions. Praying for your pregnancy!
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Helen
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**moderator's note**
The topic of this thread is...
How to talk to family about IVF?
The Mothering forum is for sharing thoughts on mothering toddlers to teens, life in a large family, and opening your heart and home through adoption
Discussing IVF could lead to a discussion of the morality of adopting frozen embryos. It would not be in the scope of this forum to come to a conculsion on this issue. We would rather direct you to an article found in Human Life Review for your own reflection and study.
Where do frozen embryos belong?
by Brian Caulfield
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LucyP
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Once I was in a position to talk to a man who with his wife was pursuing IVF. It was bankrupting their family and destroying their marriage. He was not family, just security as the office where I was temping, but because I am infertile and prepared to talk about it and how God has helped me with it we had a very very long conversation one very quiet bank holiday. What I said to him was that I often wondered how people felt about the children who were not implanted and who were "de-selected" or left in a freezer: sort of what Barbara C posted above, opening it for him to consider how HE would feel about his left-behind children. And I always used the words "baby/ies" or "child/ren" rather than embryo.
I feel that among infertile people/people with fertility issues I am very blessed by God, because for me the answer is no children from my body come what may (except a total Biblical-scale miracle) while this poor man and his wife went through tearing agony each and every month, each and every IVF cycle. So I try to remember that I am so fortunate, not to always have the pain of hope, or the thought of "just one more cycle". That pain needs my tenderness - or rather God's, shared through me, I pray.
I know first hand how hard it is to hear people with biological children talking about their infertility - and how "hard" words such as sinful or immoral - to people who don't really understand them and who are not open-hearted through the action of the Holy Spirit - are often massive stumbling blocks.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't be truthful about the truth, but prayer and thought and infinite tenderness are needed, in my opinion. Celeste, it sounds as if you are putting your heart and soul into it, and I know the Holy Spirit would help you. Maybe, to the what about Nicholas question, I would say "It is wonderful that God in His loving mercy allowed Nicholas to be born, even though the method used saddened Him." I say something like that to my DS who is aware that his birth parents and his sister's birth parents were not married, and that making babies is something God wants for married people.
This is too long! Sorry!
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DominaCaeli
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| Posted: June 09 2008 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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Just wanted to say that I've been away from the computer most of the weekend, and I'm so pleased to come back and see more thoughtful replies! I'll be back this afternoon during the kids' naptime with some more thoughts.
__________________
Blessings,
Celeste
Joyous Lessons
Mommy to six: three boys (8, 4, newborn) and four girls (7, 5, 2, and 1)
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sarahb
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| Posted: June 11 2008 at 8:25am | IP Logged
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I wonder if this isnt a subject to be avoided between you and your family, since you know already that they do not see your point of view. Maybe prayer on your part would be the right path instead of any confrontation. Maybe you could pray that they be more open to the church and its teachings. I don't think that by not commenting on their choices you are embracing their sin, but maybe I am wrong... I would just be afraid to alienate a loved one.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: How to talk to family about IVF?
