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Erin
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| Posted: Oct 25 2007 at 4:41am | IP Logged
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I'm struggling in knowing just what to expect in this area. Just how much creative writing or other forms of writing should I expect from my dc?
At present dc do copywork and dictation. That is pretty much it. If I ask for narrations, creative writing etc they moan and I give in. I know they need to do more, we are talking 14, 12, 10, 8 and 6 here. But I am unsure of just how to go about it all on a practical daily basis.
What do you expect from your dc? And how does your Language Arts writing program look like on a daily/weekly plan?
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Erin
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dollylima
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I am really glad you posted this question because I am having some questions along the same line. Yesterday, my 7 year old started crying when I mentioned he seemed to be doing a lot of sighing when I asked him to engage with me on our tasks at hand and he began crying and said that "second grade is just so much harder than first grade!" and I was shocked because I thought that the work was not challenging enough for him. The only thing he really finds "easy" is the math, and really he doesnt find it "easy", IMO, so much as he likes it and has a natural ability. He still has to THINK in order to do the work.
I go back and forth between thinking we are too lax to thinking Im too regimented and Id really like to know what "to expect from" my second grader without pushing too hard. It's such a fine line because if it isn't "fun" he doesnt want to do it, and I cant make everything "fun"!
SOrry I dont have an answer for you, but Im watching for the responses with you.
Heather
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Angel
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You know... I am not sure I would require anybody to do creative writing (fiction, poetry, or even personal essays). Speaking as a fiction writer, I was of two minds about the creative writing I had to do in language classes: it was nice to be able to do something I liked, but the prompts didn't hold my interest at all. They were all right as exercises, but not something I really got into. I wouldn't have done them if someone hadn't made me.
With my own older kids (ages 11 and 8), I have been fairly hands off as far as writing is concerned. I've tried to separate the mechanics -- spelling, punctuation, handwriting -- from the creative process as much as I can. (I do think that perhaps a little more regular work in those areas -- aside from handwriting -- might have been a good thing.) My 11 yo would throw ENORMOUS tantrums as an 8 and 9 yo if I asked him to write even a sentence. So I backed off. Now he wants to be a science fiction writer. (I write science fiction and fantasy. Or well, I *used* to before I had twins!)
I do not think, however, that I would feel bad about requiring writing of a 14 yo, even if there was moaning. What I often tell my oldest, when the moaning gets particularly loud -- about math, in his case -- that it is my job to make sure he is prepared to do what he wants to do as an adult. If he wants to go into a profession that involves college, it's my job to make sure he's prepared for it. If he decides not to go to college... he still needs to be prepared to change his mind! (This is just sort of a base level argument, I'll admit, but sometimes base level is what you need.)
Anyway, once we have that established -- and once I have tried a number of approaches and have realized that the groaning is the same with nearly all, I steel myself against all complaining, tantrums, etc. and he usually gets the picture eventually. So looking ahead to when my ds is 14... I think I might require some sort of research type writing on topics that interest him... I might suggest some multi-media projects... but I do think I would/will require *something*.
For my 11 and 8 yos now what I do is to offer several projects over the course of a week/month that involve writing and allow them to choose which they will do. I try to make the projects as appealing to them personally as possible. With this approach -- and the freedom to reject some of the ideas I come up with -- they seem to be doing a lot more writing this year. My 8 yo even decided to write a poem the other day, which I never would have assigned. But under the age of 10... I don't think I'd really worry about it too much. The actual physical act of writing something can be so frustrating before some children have gotten all their fine motor abilities in gear that it completely overshadows the writing itself. You might use art as a substitute for developing expressive skills at those ages -- and, to be honest, my 11 yo still does. (In fact, I think it's the enormous amount of drawing he's done over the past few years that have improved his fine motor skills to the point that he *can* write now.)
--Angela
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Theresa H
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| Posted: Oct 25 2007 at 8:21pm | IP Logged
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Erin - Thanks for asking the question. I've been wondering this too.
Angela - Thanks for your reply! The comments have helped me see what direction I should go with my boys.
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Kristie 4
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Erin,
First off, I am no expert. I hated to write as a kid, and even in university I only had one elective that I had to do any type of essay writing in for most of my degree.
With my older two, dd10 and ds12, we have sort of an organic process (reads- mom is not good with a schedule etc.). Often throughout the years I have just required that most days they write something: blog, dictation, copywork, written narration, poem etc. Some days I have a plan- for example a dictation, and on most days they either have something on the go or I give them some choices. These choices are pretty vague for my 10yo, things such as 'Why don't you start a new poem for copywork' or 'What about a blog post?'. For my 12yos I have been requiring written narrations. We do about 1-2 a week.
Right now my dd has a project she has started on Harry Potter so she has all these booklets she is adding to here and there and that covers her writing. She intersperses this with copywork from the Lord of the Rings.
So for example....
This week:
Monday: ds worked on turning a poem into prose
dd worked on a booklet she is making
Tuesday:I did dictation with both of them
Wednesday: ds decided to write a poem
dd did copywork from LOTR
Thursday: ds did copywork from LOTR
dd also did copywork from LOTR
One thing I started a couple days ago, was recording what writing they have been doing in list on the sidebar of my learning notes blog. For me this is a visual of what has been going on in the writing department. It helps give me the big picture, so I don't stress as much in the day to day! It helps me be brave in the writing department!
A couple years ago I honestly didn't think my ds would ever write- it equaled a trip to the dentist for him (or worse). Now, he says it is the best part of the day. I think alot of this had to do with the fact that a couple of years ago we had a year where writing was more of a focal point. We tried some neat things like starting blogs etc. and I just gave them space and time to write (I was reading alot of the Bravewriter stuff at the time). Before that year copywork was all that we had done and I was unsure whether it was enough of a foundation. But it seemed like it was enough for us. My kids enjoy writing.... even though the spelling etc. leaves much to be desired  But it will come...
This has gotten long,
Hope it answered something!
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Erin
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| Posted: Oct 26 2007 at 3:40pm | IP Logged
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Dollylima wrote:
| Yesterday, my 7 year old started crying when I mentioned he seemed to be doing a lot of sighing when I asked him to engage with me on our tasks at hand and he began crying and said that "second grade is just so much harder than first grade!" |
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Heather, I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering.
My dd10 carried on like that at the beginning of the year when I expected him to do dictation, he threw a massive tantrum of how he was expected to do so much more work than his big brother was at the same age (true I DID learn a bit) but now dictation is his favourite topic 
Angel wrote:
You know... I am not sure I would require anybody to do creative writing (fiction, poetry, or even personal essays)....
So looking ahead to when my ds is 14... I think I might require some sort of research type writing on topics that interest him... I might suggest some multi-media projects... but I do think I would/will require *something*. |
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Angela, I haven't required anything before now but then NOTHING is happening and I would have thought something might by now, I have been patient...
At what age would you start requiring something? What would be reasonable requests regards research topics? How would you go about structuring something like this? Can you tell we have done nothing in this area?
Kristie 4 wrote:
| With my older two, dd10 and ds12, we have sort of an organic process (reads- mom is not good with a schedule etc.). Often throughout the years I have just required that most days they write something: blog, dictation, copywork, written narration, poem etc.... For my 12yos I have been requiring written narrations. |
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Well I am not good with a schedule either but it is at the point that nothing is going to happen unless I make it. A year ago we started consistent dictation and copywork and I have seen huge results, that is great but I wanted to take it a step further, now the dc aren't fond of narrations but I am seriously thinking it may be time to be disciplined about that and Angela's idea of research topics, I'm just unsure of the HOW.
Kristie 4 wrote:
| I think alot of this had to do with the fact that a couple of years ago we had a year where writing was more of a focal point. We tried some neat things like starting blogs etc. and I just gave them space and time to write (I was reading alot of the Bravewriter stuff at the time). |
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I have been striving for this myself and things are improving but it needs more and I think some form of outline (this from a very loosely unstructured educator) Yesterday I set all the dc up with a blog, I was going to do a family one but they wanted their own so I'm using the one account but having several blogs from it. I'm hoping the finished format may encourage them to write.
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Oct 26 2007 at 6:53pm | IP Logged
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Have you looked at Write With the Best?? I still want to buy it, but need to save up still
To me it looked, from the samples, like just enough of a framework. (Classical Writing floored me!!)
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Kristie in Canada
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Erin
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Kristie
I remember looking at this writing guide once before, one of the 4realers here was keen to buy it. It does sound good but it is so hard to buy things sight unseen. I'm off to email and find out the cost to Australia.
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Leonie
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| Posted: Oct 29 2007 at 10:59pm | IP Logged
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Erin, we do a lot of journalling and last year I introduced the kids to blogging, as part of their "language arts curriculum".
We have a journalling nook with journals, pencils, watercolours, glue, etc. And some books of journal prompts - the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Quotes, Doing the Days, Writing Down the Days and similar.
I journal and blog, too, so this has made writing a more natural part of our life.
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Erin
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| Posted: Oct 30 2007 at 5:18am | IP Logged
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Leonie
Thank you for the suggestion  As I mentioned I have just set the dc up with a blog each in desperation  funnily enough it is the eight year old who is the keenest and he is only just beginning to read.
Do you have to prompt the children to blog or are they naturally doing it? If you have some less keen than others what do you do to encourage him?
In what way is journaling different to blogging? What is it exactly?
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vmalott
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Well, I'm w/Angel regarding not requiring kids to do creative writing. Personally, I've been swayed away from many writing programs because they implement writing prompts. To me, it just seems artificial. Now, that doesn't mean I don't have some kids who enjoy creative writing. Oldest dd (13) is one, and her little brother (6) enjoys making up stories.
However, I do think narration is vitally important. I do require a written narration from dd13 about 1/week, usually related to her history reading. If there's editing needed for her narration (which is rare), then I tag that on later in the week.
For ds11, who has had difficulty reading carefully and picking out important bits of information, I don't require narration. Instead, I've introduced him to keyword outlines, then working to relate that to a traditional outline, and today he will be learning to create a paragraph or two from the outline. This will be major handholding for a while, until he's comfortable with the process and can do it on his own about 1/week. For some reason, this is a more effective method for him. He's the kid who likes to check off boxes each day, so I'm guessing it has something to do w/the way he learns things.
Copywork is important for the younger school-aged kids (dd almost 9, and ds6). All four do it daily to help w/handwriting and to be exposed to correct mechanics, punctuation, spelling, and grammar. I set a 10 minute time limit for this.
Once we get further into the year, I will probably have dd13 work on a research report, re-introducing her to outlining along the way. We tried outlining a few years ago and it just didn't click.
Valerie
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ALmom
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I'm far from expert but our approach seems a lot like Valerie's in that I do not assign any creative writing and I taylor expectations and assignments according to each child. My oldest two always wrote stories for the younger ones in their free time or did books, etc. They really had to learn the skill of essay writing. My haters of writing are actually not bad oral story tellers at all and it is the tediousness of putting pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) that bogs them down. I focus more on ability to organize their thoughts and figure the rest will come with maturity or necessity.
My highschooler is a strong writer and everyone loves receiving her creative letters. I don't bother assigning descriptive essays or character essays - she is pretty good at that on her own. I do assign history papers that require some research - often what is in RC History. She also does the Kolbe theology papers. These force her to be more systematic with her thinking and careful with precision of language and organization. She tends to be highly creative and always thinks outside the box, so this is where she needs to go. I have utilized Kolbe to help give her pointers, because, quite frankly, she exceeds my abilities now.
My next one at home struggles with writing but loves history and reading. Writing is such a chore that we are trying to tackle it in little chunks. For this child, we are using Hillside for Lit and alternating books that we just read and discuss and have fun with, with books that we do a lot of the step by step exercises. The particular books I picked from Hillside are historical fiction so that while he is learning to do some literary analysis, we are reading things of natural interest to him. I will have him retell the story orally, while I jot down what he says. Then he takes this and writes a summary. We review and edit together and I try not to push for too many revisions so as not to discourage this child. We have worked on some character sketches and one theme essay. He is getting better with practice, but I have to give him loads of time to do things and take a very gentle approach. His strong point is phenomenal diligence so I have to take this into account in my dealings with him.
The next child is my science fan and he has really come around. He tends to be highly talented but absent minded or in a hurry. He knows how to outline and is capable of doing well if he would just organize himself and be disciplined. He is not one to get discouraged easily. My approach with this child is to teach him how to write in an area of passion - so he is writing about hydroelectric dams (describing what he did to create one), how he made a voltaic cell and how he used electrolysis to get hydrogen from water. Since I am a dunce in science, this is really working well. If he is in a hurry and doesn't put down on paper enough explanation, I'm lost and have to ask tons of questions. He did probably more than 10 revisions of the hydroelectric paper (the first one was one line per page, totally unpunctuated and hastily sketched drawings - gee the writing part of it is not nearly so fun as the tinkering and hands on part), and many revisions of several other papers. However, he finally put two and two together that there were no short cuts and he might as well just outline and spend some time at it, otherwise mom was making him do the paper a dozen times anyways. The last 2 papers have been minimal revisions and we even began to talk about interesting ways to conclude a paragraph. I have been very excited here. At the beginning of the year, this 10 year old wouldn't even remember to capitalize and punctuate and was notorious for run-on sentences. Now he is writing quite well - and becoming comfortable and quick about it without being careless. We will expand what he writes about next year, so that it includes other fields like history or literature. I'm just trying to spark interests in those areas this year.
My 7 year old is still learning to read but I do require an occassional sentence and oral narration. I should probably do more oral narrations but at this point my time is stretched darn thin so we do the best that we can.
The 5 year old isn't reading so I'm not at the writing stage with him yet.
Oh, you asked how you introduce research style writing. I love the way Kolbe does this by asking probing questions that require them to hunt for the relationships between peoples and events in several different history type books that they are assigned to read. Then we show them how to do parenthetical documentation in the writing. We may talk about when a quote helps the point and how you can explain and draw connections. History tends to lend itself to this type of writing, as do some literature assignments. Once they have done and become comfortable with this, it really isn't much of a stretch to write a full blown research paper - learning how to pick and narrow down a topic and a few technical aspects about documentation are the only new skills. Learning to follow directions and pay attention to detail help the most with the technical aspects. I still struggle a bit with the narrowing of a topic - so I will often double check with someone at Kolbe when my children propose a topic. They have learned to do this much better than I have.
Janet
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Leonie
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| Posted: Oct 31 2007 at 10:03pm | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
Do you have to prompt the children to blog or are they naturally doing it? If you have some less keen than others what do you do to encourage him?
In what way is journaling different to blogging? What is it exactly? |
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I prompt some - and not others. One way I encourage more blogging is to make suggestions and to get the kids to send a link to a new blog post to family or friends - getting a reply ( on the blog or in email) makes blogging seem more relevant, somehow.
I find that jurnalling is both more private ( a blog is more out there, so to speak) and also can be more structured - using journal prompts, for example. Our journals are also more portable - we take them with us on holidays and write/draw/paste in them...
One other language arts "thing" we do, is write and make a book each year. Fiction or non ficion. Using the ideas from "Creating books With Children" by Valerie Bendt. We've been doing this since 1994, give or take a few moving years.
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Leonie in Sydney
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Language Arts Expectations ?
