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Elizabeth
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In another thread,
JennGM wrote:
| Some quotes from Mary Reed Newland comes to mind. She incorporated some of the basic catechism questions into daily conversation. "Who made you?" with discussions. |
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This reminded me of something that's had me wondering for awhile...
Let me preface by saying I really like Mary Reed Newland's books. And I'm a fan of Maria Von Trapp. But few, if any, of their children were practicing Catholics as adults. (I wish I could quote my source, but I can't find it this morning--anyone?)What went wrong? What can we learn?
When I read an anniversary tribute like this one, I wonder what went right. I "know" four of this children's couples. I'm amazed at how well the siblings get along and how vibrantly they all live their faith. All nine of them. What went right? Don't think I haven't already encouraged a book  .
But who can we look to as proven mentors? I admit to being a bit skeptical of Maria von Trapp and Mary Reed Newland. Something went awry there...They lived the liturgical year. Faith was integral to their lives; it was the fabric of the family. And yet I don't think either of them has Catholic grandchildren. We've learned much from the lessons of these ladies' books, but I can't help but feel that there are some really crucial lessons we're missing.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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mariB
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I don't think I could figure out what went wrong. Although it had to be outside influences. I think our hope can be in keeping the liturgical year AND homeschooling. It will be interesting to find out how all Catholic homeschoolers will do in years to come. We have done lots of memorizing of the Baltimore Catechism in the past. I thought to myself, " I wonder if we are doing the right thing memorizing all of this." When my oldest attended school in 7th grade kids in his class would have questions about God, etc and my son would answer with answers to the catechism!
One day as the class was having a discussion the teacher said to the class about my son, "Well, we know Alex will stand up for what he believes in and stand alone."
I can only hope and pray that ALL of our children will follow their Catholic faith and be willing to stand alone.
I, too, would love to hear of those success stories to help all of us to know how to help our children to keep their Catholic faith! After all, this really why most of us are homeschooling.
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marib-Mother to 22ds,21ds,18ds,15dd,11dd and wife to an amazing man for 23 years
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JennGM
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I have pondered this over and over again. When I examine Trapp and Newland, part of my conclusion of failure does stem from the timing of their lives -- they seemed to get sucked into the 60s, the "spirit of Vatican II". I don't think that was all.
I know Maria Von Trapp was very dominant. I think some of the energy taken out of the home for a Lodge, choir, travel, speaking, can break down family life.
I don't know about Mary Newland's personal life, but you can see as her books evolve she was very open to the changes (many of them not dictated by Vatican II, but just of the times).
There are other writers that clung to the Faith, but they weren't as public or prolific. I found that Arlene and Emerson Hynes had about 10 children, and after her husband died, Arlene entered the convent. And I do believe her children still practice. I've wondered about Helen McLoughlin, Florence Berger, Elizabeth Ryan, but I haven't been able to find any references.
Personally, I am surrounded by 7 siblings who all practice. One cousin's family of 8 are all practicing, and a family of 3. There are many families in my local community that can boast the same.
Our family wasn't ideal, as my parents had some difficult times with their marriage when we were younger. I see key with her is that Faith and family take priority. Her example, her Faith, her deep prayer life really was our anchor and guide. She was strong, my father came back and supported her.
She would say it was because we ate together and prayed the rosary together. Those are her two keys.
I also see that we didn't allow too much outside causes or busyness to break the family bond. If we were involved in sports, the family was there (like what your family does, Elizabeth). We did the road trips, sitting in the bleachers, the late night pizza dinners.
I have a friend who was adopted by a very prolife family. They were high profile, also. They "saved" babies, and adopted 6 of their own. But they activism was more important than being with the family, so now only 2 or 3 are practicing their Faith.
But there are very good families that can handle the outside commitments and be strong.
As parents we strive to do our best. We are not perfect, and we have to let God do the rest. But our children also have free will. If we have done all we can, and as an adult they still choose to turn their back from God, is it necessarily something I did, or their own choice?
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JennGM
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I also wanted to mention that for some children the journey can be rough. For a while some family and friends I know looked "bleak" for them to stay the course...and some had some falling away, but they all repented and came back to the Church.
So the end result doesn't always come smoothly!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Mackfam
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This is something I have been pondering too. It scares me, because I want to know the secret or the key or whatever it is. My mom and dad left their Catholic faith after the loss of their second child (2 years after I was born.) They didn't know how to process - Mom says she didn't know what to do with all of that grief. She says she "memorized" her Baltimore catechism, but her faith wasn't in her heart. She didn't know how to suffer, so she went spinning out of control. She and dad returned back to the church after starting to homeschool my brother and sister. My little sister began asking "what is truth?" And that led them back to the church. I only received the sacrament of Baptism as an infant (when they were still practicing,) and I attribute those graces to bringing me to the church many years later. Amazingly, I knew nothing about being Catholic, but I always thought I was Catholic. Anyway, the three of us kids - never raised in the church, never received any "formal catechism" training, no first Sacraments - with the grace of God are all practicing. But, my aunt and uncles 3 kids, all raised in the church, all having the benefit of the Sacraments, have all left the church as adults! What happened? My aunt is devout, and has an awesome prayer life.
I have been praying about this a lot lately, and the Holy Spirit has been giving me much more to pray about.
St. John Bosco in talking about St. Dominic Savio and his preparations for his First Holy Communion, stresses the importance of preparing for First Communion - even going so far as to say that in looking at adults who have gone astray, if you trace the problem back to the source, you will always find that they weren't prepared adequately to receive our Lord - it all came back to First Communion. I was astounded. Then, I began thinking of something a holy priest told me once. He stressed the importance of First Communion Preparation. He said if you don't catch them (the kids) and they don't fall in love with our Lord for their First Communion - they may never. And then I recalled all of those wonderful apologetics books I read, and how many times I came across the idea that no one has ever left the church that believed that Jesus was TRULY present in the Holy Eucharist. How could you leave if you believed that?
So, my question, my prayer, does it all hinge on that one Sacrament? The simple, but extraordinary belief in faith that Our Lord is present body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. I don't mean to imply that I think our job begins and ends with First Communion preparation, just emphasizing the importance of it. And since I have no childhood memories of growing up in the faith - I always question, and feel a little unsure. I trust in God's amazing ability to bring good out of weakness, but I also feel the immense responsibility of raising these children - my one job is to get them to heaven!!!
How I'd love a book from Suzanne's mom!
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msclavel
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This is something I worry about often. I know all the things we are doing now, but how can I know these things truly encourage deep roots in the Faith and a relationship with Our Lord? The parable of the sower is one of my very favorites and I ponder it often when I pray for my children. I remind myself that I must make their hearts fertile soil and rely on the Holy Spirit to nurture their tender souls.
In my own family, I would say the greatest thing my parents did was teach me what it means to be family, rooted in faith. The times I can remember as hard as a kid was when my parents were heavily involved in Marriage Encounter on the national level. And yet, it was because of this that we met many wonderful priests and I have fond memories of family masses when they would come to visit. And now, as my parents move into the empty nest phase of their life they are teaching us again by example, weekly adoration, daily mass, hospice volunteers.
Have we all fared well? One sister married in the Lutheran Church (w/o dispensation) and now is a practicing Lutheran. It is a sore and delicate subject because deep down I know it pains my sister. My other sister has committed herself and her family to her faith over the past few years. It was not easy. She struggled in her marriage for a few years and has faced some bitter disappointments, but she and her husband have come out all the stronger. My brother is a lukewarm Catholic. Sometimes he goes to Mass. But he is in a very liberal environment in medical school at Cornell in NYC. He is dating a woman who was raised Buddhist and I think he intends to marry her. She is lovely and he is very happy with her, but we will see now what kind of witness we can be as a family.Despite our differences as adults, our parents cultivated such deep bonds between us that we love each other deeply without pretending that we are all in very different places.
My husband's family, well, that is another story. About as opposite my upbringing as you can get...too much to get into here.
I've gone on too long...can't wait to follow this thread.
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mariB wrote:
I, too, would love to hear of those success stories to help all of us to know how to help our children to keep their Catholic faith! After all, this really why most of us are homeschooling. |
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Me too. This is something I think and pray and worry about a lot. It worries me even more when I hear of homeschooling families where children lose their faith.
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Mare
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JennGM wrote:
| I have a friend who was adopted by a very prolife family. They were high profile, also. They "saved" babies, and adopted 6 of their own. But they activism was more important than being with the family, so now only 2 or 3 are practicing their Faith. |
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I have seen this often too. In my case, the “activism” was Marriage Encounter. A wonderful couple with 3 children of their own were very active in Marriage Encounter. Then they adopted a special needs son. The 3 older children either left the church or they are non-practicing. The adopted son is the only actively involved Catholic child. I wonder if moderation in the activism is the key?
JennGM wrote:
| As parents we strive to do our best. We are not perfect, and we have to let God do the rest. But our children also have free will. If we have done all we can, and as an adult they still choose to turn their back from God, is it necessarily something I did, or their own choice? |
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This is can be so hard to answer. I do think that ultimately, it is the adult child’s choice.
Mackfam wrote:
So, my question, my prayer, does it all hinge on that one Sacrament? The simple, but extraordinary belief in faith that Our Lord is present body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. I don't mean to imply that I think our job begins and ends with First Communion preparation, just emphasizing the importance of it. And since I have no childhood memories of growing up in the faith - I always question, and feel a little unsure. I trust in God's amazing ability to bring good out of weakness, but I also feel the immense responsibility of raising these children - my one job is to get them to heaven!!!
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In my case, I would have to answer "Yes!" to your question. While the traditional Latin Mass is beautiful, I prefer attending the Mass with the upbeat music. That is what draws me closer to God. I could easily see myself leaving to go to a Pentecostal church but it has been the Eucharist that anchors me to the Catholic Church. This love for the Eucharist started with my First Holy Communion preparation and reading about all the Eucharistic miracles. There is no where else I can go to feel at home but the Catholic Church.
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Matilda
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I too am following this thread with great interest. These are the thoughts that plague me during my most "doubtful" times when I am questioning everything.
How do we know that living the liturgical year is enough?
How do we know that homeschooling will keep our family close to the Faith and close to each other?
Look at those wonderful examples like Elizabeth pointed to... were they homeschooled? How did they "live the Faith" at home?
Is keeping your kids "practicing" enough? What if they are are practicing Catholics who marry atheists? (It has happened in my family.)
From a non-Catholic perspective--- What about the Gilbreth family? They all loved being from a large family but none of them had more than 4 children.
I am one of two children who were "raised" Catholic in a "broken home". I went to public school and attended CCD all the way through Confirmation. I was taught the Faith ONLY under the influence of the "spirit of Vatican II" with felt banners and liturgical dancers galloping all over the place. It wasn't until college that the truth of the Faith clicked and it wasn't my family that encouraged that unless you consider my parent's second divorce to have been the catalyst for seeking something permanent. How do you account for my story?
My husband reminded me that Maria Von Trapp became very heavily involved in the charismatic movement of the late 60's-early 70's which as he understands would have meant a more "Pentecostal type" Catholic church. Perhaps they didn't have that grounding in the Eucharist?
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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Cay Gibson
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Keys! I love it, Jenn.  We need keys.
Great question, Elizabeth. I've pondered this myself and finally concluded that nothing is certain. We are all fallen creatures and sometimes other influences influence.
Lame excuse, I know, but I can't figure it out.
For a long time I thought a dominant mother was not a good thing. My mother is dominanting, but she's a good mother and I love her. And I've never doubted her love for me. During my teen years I wished she didn't love me so much . 
I only have one brother and we both practice our faith but he did slip away during some turbulent years. It was lots of endless prayers of faith by my mother that brought him back...I think.
I've also wondered if it's the fabric of the family that keeps them Catholic. Our whole family up to my parents and their siblings are Catholic. It stems way back. My children can't envision being anything but Catholic. But I've noticed some of the cousins in the younger generation are going with the "do the religion that works for you at this time" mentality.
It's all very confusing.
Then there is my dh's side. His mother comes from an extreme Baptist family. She converted later in life. All the boys went to Catholic school except my husband. He's the only one who has not fallen away from the faith. One has returned to the fold but it wasn't due to his parents' influence or our influence but the influence of good friends who are strong Catholics. One is studying to become a deacon. We go camping every year with them and they are great influences on my children. But their children have all fallen away from the faith.
Confusing still?
I did notice that my dh was the only son born after his parents' marriage was blessed. Not sure if that's a factor as in a grace from God.
I'm a schlemiel for the mercy and grace of God. 
If you have the May/June 2007 issue of Family Foundations you'll see the Editor's Note by Ann Gundlach. She writes about her parents. After rereading it I'm comparing it to what Jenn wrote about her mother's keys.
It seems that the keys of one family don't always fit the keyhole to the door of another family. We have to make our own keys and hand them down to our children to keep passing down. We have to try to make sure they fit. As humans it's by trial and error.
Let me quote Ann's letter in part (I've highlighted what I believe were their "keys"):
"My parents were blessed with six children in nine years...And for most of our childhood, my Dad was out of town from M thru Th every other week, so I know my Mom had her hands more than full. Money was tight...We were made to mind our manners, help around the house, and respect our teachers.
"They managed to get us all through Catholic grade schools and high schools, and skipping Mass was never an option, although we only occasionally attended Mass as a family. My Dad always had a fondness for St. X Church...and continued to attend there every week of his life. My Mom would go with him, but we kids certainly didn't want to get up for 7 a.m. Mass downtown, so we would walk down the street on our own to either 9:30 or 11 a.m. Mass...Our faith was not a frequent topic of conversation at home, and we never said the Rosary together, although my Mom had a Hummel statue of the Blessed Mother that was very dear to her.
"Despite this laid back catechesis, none of us fell away from the Church, and in fact, all six of us are active in various ways at our respective parishes, something my parents did not model for us.
"We've been told by others that our family is unusual these days. I'm not sure I agree, but if I had to explain how we got the way we are, all I can point to is that, above all, my parents genuinely loved us. We were held to high standards, to be sure, but we didn't have to prove ourselves first. The love was always there, despite our various failings. The result of this was the development of a natural craving to please our parents. (Well, except for those teen years!)
"We wanted to be good and do good, not so they would love us, but because they loved us. Even with my parents gone, I still want to make them proud."
---Ann Gundlach, Editor (Family Foundations May/June 2007)
The letter goes on and there are good parts I'm not sharing. If you have the issue, read it. If you don't, you might want to request it from CCL. It's all on families and vocations and just a great issue all the way around.
Busy day, gotta run. Excuse any typos please. 
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Cay Gibson
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Helen
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My siblings all practice the faith (one is a Franciscan friar). All of my husband's siblings practice the Faith (one is a Carmelite.)
When I look to the example of my parents and in-laws, I see the importance of an unbroken marriage and committtment to personal prayer by the parents.
I don't think parents need to be perfect but they need to acknowledge their failings before God in confession and sincerely try again.
Prayer and trying to live a virtuous life.
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Helen
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I also believe the father's prayer life is pivotal in passing on the Faith to the children.
A father who practices the Faith (with prayer) is more likely to have grown children who practice the Faith.
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Ave Maria!
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DominaCaeli
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I remember hearing on Catholic radio once (I wish I had the source of this!) that the greatest predictor of whether children will retain their faith in adulthood is whether their FATHERS attended Mass while they were growing up. I'm not sure how much this applies to the particular examples we're discussing here, but I think that as women, we are often quick to take the spiritual life of our children into our very capable hands, forgetting how very important it is that our husbands play a significant role in their children's religious lives. (For those married to non-Catholic husbands, of course, this is not possible, but for those of us that are blessed to have husbands who are as dedicated to the faith as we are, we should let these holy men take on the task of their children's spiritual formation.)
Mackfam wrote:
| So, my question, my prayer, does it all hinge on that one Sacrament? The simple, but extraordinary belief in faith that Our Lord is present body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. |
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As a convert I would say that yes, the Catholic faith does in large part hinge on this one Sacrament. I would never have converted if it weren't for the Eucharist, and I think many other converts can say the same. It is life-changing; it is faith-determining. Once one understands the tender and powerful truth of the Eucharist, I think one will find it very hard to leave the Church.
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DominaCaeli
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Helen wrote:
I also believe the father's prayer life is pivotal in passing on the Faith to the children.
A father who practices the Faith (with prayer) is more likely to have grown children who practice the Faith. |
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I guess you and I were posting at the same time, Helen! I agree with this.
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Celeste
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mumofsix
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Like Helen, all but one of my siblings are still Catholic and one is a priest. All my six children still love and practise their faith and three are adult or nearly adult.
I would say essentials are:-
* Prayer and a personal relationship with Jesus.
* A love of the Mass and the Sacraments.
* An understanding of suffering. It is a gift.
Jane.
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Helen
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mumofsix wrote:
* An understanding of suffering. It is a gift.
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Agreed!!
I should have said that - it is something I witnessed.
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Ave Maria!
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Cay Gibson
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I agree with the prayerful father aspect.
My father was always very involved in the church. I remember growing up and seeing both my parents on their knees every morning. At night the four of us lined up on our knees in front of the sofa and said our nightly prayers.
St. Therese the Little Flower and JPII both shared the spiritual examples their fathers were to them.
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Cay Gibson
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Maria B.
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mumofsix wrote:
An understanding of suffering. It is a gift.
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Very, very key!
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Maria in VA
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Maria B.
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Helen wrote:
I also believe the father's prayer life is pivotal in passing on the Faith to the children.
A father who practices the Faith (with prayer) is more likely to have grown children who practice the Faith. |
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Be careful ... this is very important, but so hard to hear for those of us with dhs that are non-Catholics. It makes the job harder, but not impossible by any means.
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Maria in VA
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humanaevitae
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I'm sure that many of you have read about the common love languages people have. I think this concept is also true in our faith.
I came to God and the Church through learning apologetics and logical arguments. Even when I personally disagreed with Church doctrine I chose to live it because I was convinced the Church had the authority. In time of course I saw the wisdom but it took a few years!
Now apologetics meant nothing to my sister. Her reason for remaining Catholic stems from emotional links between her happy childhood and our family's living the faith. She wants to give her children the same childhood and why tinker with something that worked so well!
Already I see the /explanations/activities we do mean different things to our kids. Dd is very practical and a seeker of truth even if it hurts. I think she will hold on to the faith if she especially studys apologetics and church history. One of our kids seems to need more emotional experiences. Of course that child will learn reasons too but I also strive to give him experiences that will appeal to his heart.
Does any of this make sense?!
I hope homeschooling will allow me to "know" my children better. Hopefully I can use that personalized information to grow and deepen their faith in the Lord and in his Church. Through knowing their "faith love language" I can also teach them to be aware of their soft spot and not to be too easily swayed by other faiths. Through all of this, my desire is for the children to be seekers of truth, at all costs.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: What went wrong? What went right?
