| Author | |
momtomany
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 17 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 505
|
| Posted: May 28 2005 at 5:43pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
A question. If I was to go with a formal music program, though I'm not sure if I will, does anyone have any good recommendations??
__________________
Mary Ann in PA
wife to MIchael, mom to Elizabeth, Becca, Tim, Peter, Andrew, Sarah, Matthew, John, Leah and Joseph
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kelly
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 21 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
| Posted: May 29 2005 at 11:54am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Depending on the age of your children, and the instrument they choose, you might consider the Suzuki method. If you have a Suzuki school in your area---or for that matter, any music school (as opposed to individual teachers) you might call them up and ask about setting up something so you can get all your students in at the same time. Half of my children do a traditional method, the violin players do the Suzuki method, but for me, the key to success has been being able to get everyone scheduled for the same time slot once a week. We have a two and a half hour chunk of time when we take over the music school  and have kids spread out to different classes of piano, string and ensemble. We have managed to accomplish this in two different towns, so I know its doable!
The other method we have used is to find a great teacher who can come to the home. We have been blessed with fabulous graduate students from our local university, who come to the house.
I don't know about you, but scheduling is crucial when you are scheduling for an abundundance of children!
Kelly in FL
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kelly
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 21 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
| Posted: May 29 2005 at 10:10pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oops, that's "abundance". Guess I used an "abundundance" of letters!
Kelly in FL
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: June 03 2005 at 3:47am | IP Logged
|
|
|
hi,
I ditto trying to schedule lessons back to back for scheduling or have a teenage driver!
Music lessons are one of the best things we ever did. The most important thing is finding a teacher that teaches correct form on the instrument and is a good fit for your children. You can interview a little before deciding on a teacher.
Some people prefer different things in terms of traditional vs Suzuki. I think some of it depends on the age of the children and how strictly Suzuki the teacher is. I have found (personal opinion here for sure) that I prefer traditional instruction unless the children are very young. The reason for this is that one of my goals is note - reading and Suzuki students sometimes have a hard time transitioning from everything memorized to actual reading of music. The other is that in some of the Suzuki books, pieces are modified and not really identified as major changes to the piece. Even at a more advanced level - book 6 and 7 pieces were not the real thing which drove our oldest crazy.
The thing I liked about Suzuki was that the child actually started with beautiful sounding music as oppossed to the more tedious piano stuff we had. However, we have found a number of traditional teachers who will use Suzuki books at first and then do the full classical pieces. We have also found Suzuki teachers that supplement with music theory. Music theory actually is what helps give you the tools to learn on your own more.
One other recommendation - do your children have a strong preference for a particular instrument? It is cheaper overall if little ones pick up an instrument already available - ie when SR graduates to full size, then someone takes over 3/4 and someone else the 1/2 unless you are renting instruments. Piano is the cheapest as one serves all. Piano is also a great foundation for any other instrument especially if they don't have any strong preferences.
However, this being said, it is wonderful to have a variety as then you can all form your own chamber groups. We know families who are their own string quartet, etc. and it really is special that way. They play for their own enjoyment and serve as a family in a variety of ways. Also if you have string players, it's great if at least someone plays the piano because you'll need an accompaniest for almost anything you do.
Is there a youth orchestra or band available in your area? The concerts here are free and that is how my oldest dd began violin (in addition to her piano) and another son is now interested in harp. It gave them a chance to see and hear different instruments and it is really amazing how definite some people's preferences became after seeing orchestra. There is also a homeschool band ($1 for each rehearsal) which is a great way to experiment with different band type instruments.
Music in band tends to be either big band or jazz, while orchestra is more classical, at least here so that may also be a factor. Band is a lot less costly.
Hope this gives some ideas.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 03 2005 at 12:19pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hey Mary Ann! I'm no expert, but we do enjoy music in our house! Here's a bit of my experience:
As an adult who was taught Suzuki cello (I began with my son, and now play in an orchestra) I can highly recommend the method. It is important to get into a program (or find a teacher) who includes theory at an appropriate time, but like reading a book, we teach children the language first, and then the reading skills later, when the child is ready (not very CM, since she suggested doing both at the same time, but a 3yo is often not ready to read a new language instantly). Still, I think CM would have appreciated the Suzuki method, if she had seen it in action; Suzuki music is rather like copywork--you learn so much from those who have mastered the skills, and by imitating them.
As Janet said, there are some who feel that Suzuki does not teach enough reading. In my experience (and according to Andrew Pudwa, who is also a Suzuki teacher), this is a myth. The only kids I know who were taught by the Suzuki method who cannot read are those who quit. Of course, my experience is limited to this area, and the kids I know. I'm sure there are "pure" Suzuki kids who do not read well out there somewhere, but reading music can be taught at any age, and remediation is quick, in most cases.
One thing to consider, though, in the case of kids who play well but can't read music, for whatever reason, is the pleasure they get from playing. Many folk artists don't read, but pass pieces from one to another. That's a very legitimate way to learn and enjoy music.
Janet, our teachers here never use Suzuki past book 6 (and they don't use all of book 6) because of the non-traditional changes Suzuki made in the music. In fact, from book 3 on, they make bow changes, fingering changes, and more on almost every piece! This facilitates the progression from individual lessons to playing with a full orchestra, where the whole string sections will be using the same, traditional bowings. What they do keep of the method, no matter what piece they are working on, is the listening, and that is the heart  of the method. Even Libby listens to her pieces, orchestral, chamber, and solo, while she is learning, and she is an outstanding sight reader.
If anyone wants to hear my full opinion  on music ed., NACHE has a tape of my talk available (see tape # 604). The talk includes ideas for both playing an instrument and music appreciation.
I can also e-mail a word file of the talk to anyone interested, but it is a bit disorganized, and includes some odd notes here and there  .
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 03 2005 at 12:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Just wanted to add, Janet, that I didn't mean to contradict you! 
When we looked into music methods for Libby many years ago, I was told to find a Suzuki program that would offer a total music program because Suzuki kids don't learn to read. We did find such a program, and I have honestly never met a kid who has stuck with the program who cannot read music. I guess that's a good thing, and I am not precluding the possibility that there are pure Suzuki kids out there who cannot read, but I don't know any of them .
I'm wondering if the music reading/Suzuki myth isn't unlike the homeschooling/socilaization myth?
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: June 03 2005 at 7:16pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MacBeth,
I appreciate your input. It could be that Suzuki as taught here is not quite the same as there. I am certainly not an expert on Suzuki and you certainly have more awareness of it in a formal sense. I only know our own very personal experiences in our one region. There do seem to be very strong feelings for or against traditional or Suzuki. There are a number of misconceptions about traditional methods as well - there are gentle teachers that expect good intonation in the traditional teachers and they also encourage listening to the pieces you are learning, so I'm definitely not opposed to that. Not all traditional teachers sit you at the piano and pound mindless theory and scales until you can scream. I guess I really think it is most critical that you get kind and gentle teachers that know their instrument and expect a certain mastery in an encouraging way - whether the teacher is traditional or Suzuki. That is what I was trying to say.
I just didn't know the first thing about music when we started. Our dd had been playing piano for a number of years - picking out Christmas carols by ear on a keyboard I won from Buy Wise Drugs and kept begging for piano lessons so she could learn to read music so she could play anything she wanted. Dummy that I was, I actually put her off for a whole year.
When we started, I wanted her to play for enjoyment and not be pressured. We found a teacher who was not even with a music teacher's association. I didn't know the first thing about music, music teachers, technique or different styles. The teacher allowed her to pick a lot of things herself but wasn't terribly picky about some things. I think she was a good first teacher for our daughter because she helped her achieve her goals and had some very fantastic ways for teaching reading music that, at least for this dd, were very painless. Today, sight reading is one of her strengths and it serves her well in her job as church pianist/organist.
Our daughter preferred classical music, so that was the kind of pieces her teacher selected for her. When our daughter began discussing dreams of a musical profession, her teacher was humble enough to insist that we move on and recommended several teachers. We "auditioned" with several and selected the one that our daughter preferred. This was the first entry into the full traditional music teachers way of doing things. Lots of competitions, etc. but these were all positive experiences for our daughter as she was looking at the comments not at winning/losing. It might not have been so positive at a younger age.
I do know her current teacher is very encouraging but exacting and does not require participation in competitions. When we spoke to people who were taking Suzuki piano here (there was only one piano teacher with Suzuki method here) the comments were all about how discouraging she was and most of the children, though very talented, were quitting early. They seemed to feel like they just never could please her. So that is why I really think the fit between teacher and student is more important than the method. This personality type thing is probably not what Dr. Suzuki would have approved but it is the realty of Suzuki here with piano.
Later, at 13, our dd took up violin (considered very late for string playing) and we went with a teacher who was qualified to teach Suzuki and Traditional. Our daughter got a mixture of both in a lot of ways, but played through the Suzuki books. We grew very tired of Suzuki books after book 3/4. The teacher was very kind, we always bought CDs (but we do that with most of her piano literature as well). She, too, was an excellent first teacher for our daughter. She knew that our daughter wanted to make the high school level orchestra and worked to take advantage of her piano background to help her. But we have discovered that fingerings are odd, pieces are not real pieces and as far as I know this is the only Suzuki studio in the area. We know people who were in orchestra with our dd who had the previous Suzuki teacher who would not even let them see the music until after book 3/4. These students either took traditional piano to learn to read music and for music theory or transitioned to traditional or grew discouraged and quit. We are now moving on with violin as well - hoping for the college professor who our daughter worked with at string camp and learned tons from.
We know some phenomenal musicians that started with Suzuki in other areas of the country and are now in traditional programs in our area. They started when they were 3 and are playing in professional orchestras while still in high school. I certainly believe the musicianship from these players must have some connection to the early instruction in music - and if you are going to learn to play at 3, then Suzuki makes a lot of sense.
We were beginning with an 11 year old and 13 year old. Our 11 year old is getting the more traditional Suzuki and I'm not sure it works for us. She is very discouraged by her slow progress, she wants to play more varied songs and she has forgotten any notereading she learned from piano earlier. She wanted to look ahead in the book and see what she could figure out as she was getting pretty bored with Twinkle Twinkle but was forbidden to do so. Her teacher is always finding fault, often interrupting our dd to reposition her hands. Our daughter got so nervous that she would stumble through a piece she had played close to perfectly at home and then get fussed at for not practicing (when she had been very diligent everyday). When she decided that she didn't care, practiced once in the week, she would do better. She has really wanted to quit on and off for the last year. I did attempt to learn the instrument with her and went to all her lessons (even with a nursing baby in tow) and practiced with her. I was determined to learn Twinkle eventually. My eye hand is terrible, I had no musical exposure (except what is on popular radio)as a child and thought the orchestra tuning up was a beautiful song, so she obviously moved on ahead and we ended by taping the lessons because I couldn't keep technique straight. I know the ideal is for mom to learn first and then children imitate. However, it just is not doable for us and it seems more important to have a good teacher - child fit. We have contemplated letting this dd take a break and begin again with a traditional teacher.
It is also financially impossible for us to begin all our children at 3 - between lessons, instruments, etc. I believe we have had to do the best we can by making sure our children hear lots of good music. We take them to as many concerts as possible where they can see and hear different instruments and then move into formal lessons as they express interest. We have been asked to read and very much enjoyed a lot of Suzuki's writings. There is something, I think, that bothers me about what I have seen and I think it is the public education mentality of taking students from what he considered "deprived" homes and training them in his superior schools. He didn't seem to believe in talent at all - everything was environment.
Thats just my reaction to the materials I read and borrowed as we began strings and perhaps there are things I don't understand or perhaps our area doesn't give a very ideal presentation of Suzuki. All, of course, is my very personal opinion and I know others feel very strongly in a different vein.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn UK
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 924
|
| Posted: June 04 2005 at 5:08am | IP Logged
|
|
|
ALmom wrote:
| So that is why I really think the fit between teacher and student is more important than the method. |
|
|
I'll second that. My 10yo dd has been learning piano traditionally for 3 years and has progressed slowly and steadily - but most importantly, happily. Her teacher is very gentle and Rachel enjoys her lessons. When she started I was very doubtful that she would want to keep going - she didn't show any signs of being musical (couldn't sing in tune, didn't get rhythm), but her teacher has slowly built up her technical skills and she is now growing into musicality. The child who couldn't sing in tune is now able to pitch brass instruments beautifully  . She is taking trumpet lessons informally with a friend, who is another gentle, encouraging personality, and making rapid progress. She can sight read confidently, and will pick up any instrument and play around on it on the assumption that she will be able to get some sort of tune.
So my two pence, for what it's worth, is that the teacher matters more than the method. You get great musicians produced by both the traditional and Suzuki methods; you also get children taught under both methods who give up and never reach their musical potential because a teacher kills an instrument for them.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kelly
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 21 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
| Posted: June 05 2005 at 2:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Kathryn UK wrote:
ALmom wrote:
| So that is why I really think the fit between teacher and student is more important than the method. |
|
|
I'll second that.
So my two pence, for what it's worth, is that the teacher matters more than the method. You get great musicians produced by both the traditional and Suzuki methods; you also get children taught under both methods who give up and never reach their musical potential because a teacher kills an instrument for them.
|
|
|
I'll third it, Kathryn and Janet! FWIW, my aunt, who was a professional violinist and played first violin for years, teaching all the while, admonished me to be very careful when ds began Suzuki because in her teaching, my aunt had encountered so many talented Suzuki violin students---who couldn't read a note---but played beautifully. Let me hasten to say, though, that this aunt of mine was born in 1909(!)(my grandfather was born in 1858...talk about extended families!), so I'm betting this was more of a problem when Suzuki method was just gaining ground here in the US than it is now. Our experience with Suzuki teachers (and over time, we've had quite a few) is that they have all been very atuned to introducing note reading as soon as the student is ready, usually pretty early. It has never been a problem.
We have had enthusiastic teachers, and dullards, in both Suzuki and traditional method. What a difference the enthusiastism makes to the young student! I'd definitely say it's the teacher who makes the difference in the final analysis.
Kelly in FL
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 05 2005 at 8:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I agree, too, that a great teacher will make or break a musician, despite the method! And I always preface my talks with, "This is not an ad for Suzuki." Most instruments (and, therefore, musicians) are taught in the traditional way. Without traditional methods, there would be few musicians! But, as you all have pointed out, we need to find teachers with personalities which encourage the talents of the children with whom they work. I love the teachers the kids have now, but we have had some very odd folks teaching them from time to time...some folks who clearly should not be teaching kids at all because of their tendency to discourage. We once even found a teacher who was completely disinterested in teaching! I always encourage folks to interview or "test-drive" a teacher before comitting to long-term lessons.
But again, it seems as though there is a kind of myth that traditional teachers push. Sure, there are 6 year olds who can play concertos but can't read music, but so what? There are 6 year olds (especially in homeschools--hehe) who have memorized Shakespeare but can't read. Nothing in that early memorization prevents a child from learning to read well when he is ready. I'm sure we have all heard about how homeschooled kids excel in some areas, but they don't or can't...(fill in the deficiency blank). And anecdotal evidence abounds! Similar rumors are always found where there are success stories  . I just don't believe that most of the complaints are justified.
I readily admit that am not really familiar with traditional teaching methods for very young children, and my experience is based on strings and some secondary piano--I am clearly biased, and have lots of anecdotal evidence to back myself up . Locally (and I agree this can be a regional thing, and our music programs are predominantly Asian), for strings, traditional methods are used in the schools where mediocrity is the norm. The kids taught in this way cannot hold a candle to the Suzuki kids, and the orchestras sound so bad that many Suzuki kids refuse to play with them. There are no kids in the string sections of Libby's orchestra who began their studies with traditional teachers, though several were taught the "Yo Yo Ma" method, where their parents taught them a concerto or Bach suite one measure at a time, when they were very young  ! All of the students in the orchestra have traditional teachers now, but the conservatory won't take beginners. In order to get an audition (and kids come from all over the world to audition), a student must be playing at a very advanced level. They are not only required to sight read their music, but also solfege any piece, in any clef. This high standard of playing is very difficult to acheive through traditional methods. Traditionally taught wind and brass players are usually not accepted until they are in their teens, while strings can get in as early as age 5 (As an aside: I don't think anyone belongs at a high-pressure pre-college conservatory at a young age--we waited until Libby knew she wanted to make music her life).
Suzuki has raised the level of playing to new heights. There was a time, maybe 50 years ago, I have been told by older teachers, when no one expected a cellist to play in tune. The old school had admitted defeat, and we audience members just had to deal with it! Not so anymore--Suzuki-trained cellists are amazing!
Janet, I read with interest your take on the Suzuki books and publications. As a person from Japan, Suzuki was influenced certainly by his atmosphere . His philosophy is not always mine! but just as I can take the CM method and adapt it to my Catholic home, so I can take Suzuki and make the method work without the philosophy.
I was also thinking about the Suzuki books, and realizing that they are just books, and there are many books which traditional or Suzuki teachers either like or dislike depending on the editor or publisher; the problems with the Suzuki edits are not unique to Suzuki. Trip's viola teacher took one look at a Schirmer copy of the Teleman concerto and complained about the editor. Libby's former violin teacher always insisted on International editions for studies (which, despite the "Suzuki" program, were required from the beginning of Book 3).
Gee, maybe (after all I have written) the truth is that we have never had a "pure" Suzuki teacher! Is there such a thing? And maybe this whole discussion is moot .
Anyway, it's great to see so many young musicians, no matter the training, enjoying music. We love having music in the house!
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: June 11 2005 at 11:56am | IP Logged
|
|
|
MacBeth,
Thanks for the information. I wish we had the kind of environment you speak of here. Most of the string musicains in this area are also Asian, but here they end up in traditional programs.
I think that some of the problems here are related to the caliber of instruction - most of the top string players travel 2+ hours for a teacher. We cannot do that.  Those that claim to be Suzuki here wait so long to introduce music reading and theory that it becomes at least a temporary handicap. Our 11 yo has still not been introduced to any note-reading. Our dd friend began violin later in life like she did and was never allowed to see the music on the page. She got so discouraged that she couldn't play in an orchestra because she couldn't read music (and that was something she had initially wanted). She also got discouraged as children who began after her were moving on and she couldn't make the symphonic level orchestra with her friends. Eventually, she just gave up. I do not deny that Suzuki students can and do learn to read music - very well - many professionals are Suzuki trained. For this child Suzuki was a real handicap because the teacher wouldn't let her learn when she wanted to.
It is funny because what I read in your post about Suzuki would actually more accurately describe our traditional teachers. I really do appreciate your clarification about sight reading - I didn't mean to imply that Suzuki itself was necessarily the problem but only its implementation by certain teachers in certain areas. I cringe at the Suzuki recitals here as the squeeks and wrong notes abound. It's bad if even I can hear it. The funny part about this is that the Suzuki teachers here complain about how traditionally taught students don't learn proper intonation. I have to laugh becasue it sounds like the reverse of what you experience in your area - with traditionals complaining about Suzuki. By the way, I am learning and developing an ear even at my old age and do now recognize wrong notes and the difference between tuning up and playing. It's never too late!
I do like a lot of what Suzuki had to say in the books he wrote and I do like his emphasis on playing from the heart and not to win or compete. I also like his emphasis on early exposure to great music and the benefits of listening. I also love his wholistic view of the child and music and character development going hand in hand. We do find this possible in the traditional here - I think the best teachers have probably taken the best from all the great minds and implement this conglomeration, whatever label they choose to apply to their studio.
We have tried to do what we can in regards to Suzuki's recommendations and have looked for some aspects in the teachers we have ended up with. As neither my husband or I had any experience with music, we played a lot of CDs from early on. We attended some orchestra concerts as our dd got older and wish we had known about the free ones sooner. I also wish that I had known more about what to look for in a teacher. She learned some bad habits from both of her first teachers that she has had to unlearn.
I do find it somewhat discouraging (although it is true) that Suzuki emphasized early music training and most of the professional string players started by age 8, at the latest. I do believe very strongly that it is never too late to start learning, but if you start at 3 and keep going you have that many more years of music in your life. I struggle somewhat with the years of missed opportunities and the reality that lessons with a decent teacher (if you can get in) run upwards of $30 for 30 minute weekly lessons plus you have the instrument rental fees on top of that. Orchestra fees run upwards of $200 per child. With 6 children and no experience ourselves, we cannot sign all our children up for lessons and definitely not orchestra.
Our oldest dd has developed a real love of music and plans to pursue it. We wish we had been more alert sooner and more discerning in her early teachers, but we appreciate the positives they have given her and the beautiful character influences that have been part of her music training. Because she started late in strings, she is limited somewhat but would like to continue taking lessons (and it is killing us that we cannot find a teacher that actually teaches through the summer here), would want to always play in an orchestra and would like to see how far she can go with violin. She will be pursuing a music performance degree with piano. I wish our dc could meet - or we lived close enough for some musical get - togethers.
I know we could learn a lot from your expertise. We feel a little like we are bumping around and agonize sometimes over not switching to more thourough teachers sooner. I made our decision about piano teacher based on some of the misinformation about traditional - that they emphasize competition (I'm sure there are some that do), that they drill with such boring regularity that they'll kill any desire for further study (I did have a teacher like that for my 1 year of piano) and that they play endless twaddle for years until they get good enough for real stuff (some of that is true at least with some teachers). We thought that going with a teacher that took it more as developing love and playing what they were interested in would avoid the worst of the supposed traditional method. What we have since learned the hard way is that anything worth doing is worth doing thouroughly from the start. This teacher didn't give her any scales to work on (until just before we switched teachers), did not emphasize playing as written but would sometimes improvise and while very sweet and good at teaching sight reading we have had to unlearn entrenched habits which took the first year with her new teacher.
Our 8 yo is beginning piano with our oldest dds current teacher. I was worried at first because he is much younger than when dd started with her. We have been so totally impressed. The teacher adapts to her student and spent the first lesson assessing where she needed to start. Our son came home with scales and exercises but absolutely loved it - it was real work. He was expressing all kinds of discoveries about the piano - from the scientific point of view. It's hard not to dwell on the if-only for our oldest who has just taken such an interest in music and has worked so hard to get where she is despite our less than ideal environment and our ignorance in finding her first teachers. She has certainly discovered a love but didn't really realize it until 13 or so and hopefully she can achieve her goals. She really loves orchestral music and would like to perform with an orchestra. Piano and violin are both so competitive at the professional level that not everyone gets to that level where they can perform. She also likes accompanying and church music so I'm sure music will be in her future somewhere.
Thanks for your comments about music selection. I think you hit on something here. A serious teaher will use good music (whether Suzuki or otherwise) and I think that is where this discussion has ended up.
Find a serious teacher that is a good fit for your child - someone who is gentle and kind but exacting on the instrument. Do not be prejudiced for or against any particular method. Interview the teacher ahead of time to make sure it is a good fit before you commit.
I think we were trying to say the same things coming from different directions. I'm sorry if I sounded prejudiced against Suzuki - that was not my intent but probably the result of poorly expressing myself. Thanks for your responses - they have been wonderful.
I looked at your earlier post on this board - about music education. Boy I wish I'd seen that back when dd was younger! What a great list of suggestions.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kelly
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 21 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
| Posted: June 11 2005 at 4:14pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
As a note of interest to the person who originated this thread, you might be interested in reading Mr. Suzuki's book, "Nurtured by Love". It's a great little read, of interest to any homeschooling parent, really, as well as any music parent (or both!).
MacBeth, who do you use for your violin repairs in NYC? We've been using Carlos Arcieri, do you know his shop?---I think he does a great job, but I'm always on the lookout for recommendations.
Kelly in FL (with violin currently in the Big Apple!)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn UK
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 924
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 2:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
ALmom wrote:
Orchestra fees run upwards of $200 per child.
|
|
|
I'm curious to know what is available in different places, and at what cost. We pay £10 (around $18) for a 30 minute piano lesson with a reasonable teacher who can teach up to good amateur standard. My dd has also joined a Saturday morning music centre run by our local schools music service. That costs around $55 a term (3 terms in a year) for a three hour session every Saturday, where she can join four different classes or groups - she takes choir, wind band, orchestra and a rhythmic workshop (which she wants to swap for a theory class next term). Our county has a pretty good music service, and similar music schools are available in each of the four largest towns in the area. There are also county orchestras, string groups and wind bands, which I think are free, but which require a certain standard of playing. The music centre is open to anyone, regardless of standard or ability, as they have groups for beginners upwards.
I play in an amateur orchestra, which costs about $45 a term to cover hire of a practice room, music hire and the conductor's fees.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06) (11/07)
The Bookworm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 12:53am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Kathryn,
Wow! If we lived in England, more of our children would be taking some sort of formal music lessons. As it is our oldest dd gets the most music - but she pays for half her own organ lessons, her music camps, she works as an accompaniest for the younger orchestras to pay for part of her orchestra fee and we cover piano and violin lessons. We paid for 1/2 the violin and she saved up for the rest.
Our dd #2 takes Cello lessons. We rent - which is expensive. Now that she is full size, we are looking for an inexpensive, but decent sounding Cello to purchase (anyone know of a place to look or what to look for). She was in one of the lower level orchestras last year but will not next year - partially due to expense and partially due to lack of motivation to practice. We felt it would be better for her to concentrate on lessons for a while in the hope that that will help her improve faster so she likes it more.
Our ds #2 just started piano. He really wants to play harp but there aren't any teachers locally - they are 2 + hours away and instruments are very expensive and only available out of town. He is really enjoying his lessons.
Everyone else will have to wait for a while. Eventually we want everyone to have some formal music training, but right now we are prioritizing based on age and/or strongly expressed interest. They watch and hear siblings, CDs and live concerts. Our ds #1, at one time expressed an interest in trumpet and we are trying to encourage band participation to experiment with some of the instruments, but right now he claims to hate music so we're not forcing the issue.
I'm looking forward to seeing what others say about other parts of the U.S. or world.
Sorry, to momtomany who started this post. I think we have diverged all over the place and you probably got more advice than you needed. Hope somewhere in all this you were able to glean some useful information and we're not driving you crazy!
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 11:24am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Kelly wrote:
MacBeth, who do you use for your violin repairs in NYC? We've been using Carlos Arcieri, do you know his shop?---I think he does a great job, but I'm always on the lookout for recommendations.
Kelly in FL (with violin currently in the Big Apple!) |
|
|
What, Kelly? You are/were in NYC, or is it just a travelling violin? If only I had known,and had a light schedule... !
I use a guy on LI for casual repairs to the younger kids' instruments...Ed Maday. His wife is my son's cello teacher, and he makes beautiful instruments. He is an amazing woodworker, and if anyone is interested in traditional instruments (especially for medieval fairs!!) like the viola de gamba, he does those with fancy scrollwork and detail: Lion Head. He also makes violins with custom scroll work, too.
For Libby's instrument (a 1988 Perret previously owned by Glen Dicterow), I use Rare Violins of NY on W.72nd St. It is a relatively new shop, but the owners have been in the business for years. Libby went in for an ajustment recently and met one of the guys from Emerson. I know Arcieri's name, but I have not been to his shop. If he is familiar with the instrument, your best bet is to stick with him.
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 12:14pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Janet,
Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply. I was a bit afraid that I sounded like a jerk in my previous post...I hope it did not come out that way. One of the problems with computer communication is the lack of communication via facial expressions. Silly emoticons can hardly convey anything with precision. Like you, I am a relative novice in the music world, and I am getting lesson after lesson from my kids! And while I knew that Libby was gifted musically from the time she was 2, it did not occur to me that she might want to be a professional musician until she said so last year. Oh, but she wants to be a marine biologist, just like mom, too ! Every year has given us new things to consider, from a kids adding on an instrument, to new teachers with contrasting personalities...you name it.
An interesting note--I have spoken with many folks in more rural areas (well, compared to NYC, everywhere is rural!!) and many have had a similar experience to yours. There is maybe one Suzuki teacher in the area, and he or she is just not a good fit for the family, or does not teach theory/reading. Frankly, I think they do a real disservice to the kids when they don't teach them what they need to know when they are ready.
When we began, I had heard that Suzuki kids do not learn to read, so I made sure that I found a local program that teaches every possible aspect of music training. I know, I'm lucky. There are at least 10 schools within an hour's drive where we could have found what I was looking for. But I never relied upon the program to teach it all. I found some rote reading books from the 30s (libraby books sale!) that I used with the kids for quick site reading practice. We began by clapping the meter, and continued with note rhythms and finally solfege and actual reading. The next year (libby was 6), the program hired a composer to work with the kids who had them reading music backwards and forwards (literally), skipping beats, and writing their own music.
(Ah! The Elgar cello concerto just came on the radio! Heaven!)
The expense is another thing  (I'll itemize in my next post), but I was amazed by the von Duyke family's approach--the big kids teach the little kids. Last I saw, they had 10(+?) kids, and everyone except the baby played at least on instrument.
Off to the beach. More later.
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 8:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Here are more examples of Ed Maday's fancy scrollwork. 
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kelly
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 21 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 10:45pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MacBeth wrote:
What, Kelly? You are/were in NYC, or is it just a travelling violin? If only I had known,and had a light schedule... !
|
|
|
Alas, no, our violin gets around more than I do. Daniel inheirited his grandfather's violin, a nice 200+year old instrument, that gets to travel to NYC for its repairs. I'm afraid to put it in the hold, so it gets a seat in Business Class with dh when he goes to the city to work...(let me hasten to add, we don't PAY for a seat, Mr. Violin will sit in the overhead if he must!).
Thanks for the names, I'll keep them in reserve.
PS One of these days we will accompany Mr. Violin on a visit, and when that happens, we'll warn you in advance! Batten the hatches
Kelly in FL
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kelly
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 21 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 10:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Ed Maday's scrollwork is beautiful!
Kelly in FL
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 14 2005 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
OK--The cost.
Libby's lessons are covered under a total tuition package: About $7500 a year. That covers private violin, private cello, theory, solfege, chorus, chamber group, and orchestra, and it will include conducting next year. It does not cover her commute, 2 days a week into Manhattan. We also pay $25 per semester tuition for community orchestra where she and Trip earn college credit. She owns her violin  , but rents an old cello from an old lady --$150 a year.
Trip has a bill of $285 per semester for chamber orchestra (his second orchestra, where he is a new violist, is free) and theory combined. His private lessons are $40 an hour for cello (homeschooler's get a discount for coming early!), and $58 for viola, with 17 lessons per semester. The viola rental is $100 per year, and the cello is $150.
We own Annika's violin and Paul's violin (and all the sizes in between). Their group lessons and theory classes combined cost $265 per semester, each child. Private lessons are $90 an hour, but Annika takes 40 minutes, and Paul takes 30 minutes. Annika also takes piano, which in $58 an hour, but she only takes half an hour. Paul and Annika take 16 lessons per semester.
Orchestra is free for me, but I did not play this year. I use one of the cellos in the house. I have shared lessons with the kids, and my cello teacher (Mrs. Maday) is a good friend.
Then there are summer programs. No one but Libby is interested in going this year and while she pays basic tuition ($4100), she got a work/study position as a TA which will cover her cello tuition.
Sorry you asked? Please remember that EVERYTHING in NYC, from milk to gas, is more expensive here than in most parts of the world...also, the kids earn money playing in pubs, at St. Patrick's day parties, at special Masses (in other parishes...they play in ours for free), and weddings/funerals. Some competitions pay nicely, too, but only Libby is interested in competing.
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : The Arts in the Everyday
Topic: music studies
