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Mary G
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| Posted: July 22 2007 at 10:35am | IP Logged
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I put this here as I think it encompasses all aspects of a real learning lifestyle ....
So, here's my question: with all the Sunday sales papers blaring "back to school" sales of supplies ... and still  a bit in the mindset of prepping kids for parochial schools that always had a list a mile long as far as "necessary" supplies  .... what is your take on all this -- buy lots of cheap crayons, markers, pencils, notebooks ... or save the money and buy really good quality supplies?
In other words, are the Stockmar crayons that much better than crayola? Are the Ferby Pencils that much better than Rose Art's pencils?
I'm tending toward closing my eyes to all the sales and purchasing good stuff this year -- I'll only have my littles home for school (Catie's going to the high school where dh teaches) and I think this will help us concentrate on create lovely, great products rather than lots and lots of "twaddle" projects.....
This topic goes further ... and in some ways relates to whether you allow twaddle or less-good literature or only want Great Books? Do you allow workbooks, textbooks etc as spine or heed to CM's thoughts on only living books?
Bottom line, how realistic is a full CM lifestyle?
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MaryG
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CatholicMommy
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I do not yet know as much about CM as I would like before commenting on that aspect, but I can speak for the quality of some school supplies. I AM pushing towards almost no twaddle, at least for these earlier years (then only introduced to spark discussion about specific issues as well as quality measures).
We use the cheap crayons, colored pencils, markers, etc for 'other' purposes. Crayons we only use crayola for coloring - all other brands are melted with the sun and magnifying glass to make cool patterns and such (sometimes we'll put small chunks of crayons between two pieces of overhead projector sheets - melt with the magnifying glass, peel off the sheets... other ideas). The colored pencils are used for general quick notes, random coloring/busy work, average coloring books, or other more interesting purposes. I can handle crayola crayons but we really like the smoother colors of the nicer colored pencils. When we do get the catholic mosaic coloring book, only the nice pencils will be used in it. We only use markers for the workbooks my mother buys for my son - various reasons, I just don't think markers are all that great. As for crayons, now that I'm think about it, we really don't use them much at all (my 3yo's last adventure with them was to hide behind the recliner and peel the paper off of every single one - this took him over 5 months to complete in bits and pieces (literally!)) - when they are gone, or I'm just sick of them, I will likely prefer to purchase nicer art supplies (pastels, charcoal pencils, etc).
We rarely use writing pencils around here - too many cheaper colored pencils to use! And we don't really bother with erasing - either cross out or start over. I've found it causes my daycare children to write/draw more with more attention, and if they do make a mistake, I encourage them to find a way to work that mistake into their original design. Not a perfect system, but it does get their imaginations going.
Notebooks, we've not worried about yet, though I think I may stock up on a few in the future, just to have a few spiral notebooks on hand for whatever reason.
We do stock up on binders when they're on sale and 3-hole punch a LOT to put into them, mostly using one side of a scrap paper then pasted onto a piece of construction paper or put into a page protector if we really want to keep it.
Just my little developing corner of the CM world. 
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happymama
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i suppose it partly depends on the ages of your children? but generally speaking, I'm for quality - because of the clutter issue, i'd much rather have fewer things that are better quality. I LOVE the ferby pencils, for example, for a 3-year-old learning to hold a pencil correctly. But they're too expensive for, as you put it, "twaddle" work.
Thanks to Montessori suggestions, i've learned to appreciate the value of offering a child only, say, 6 different crayons at a time when they're young. If you hand them a bucketful of crayons, they tend to focus more on which ones are in better condition or ripping the paper off of them than on drawing or noticing the differences between the colors.
We want to give our kids the perfect, most excellent education that we can... but we must remember to balance that desire with the determination to also teach them the values of simplicity and poverty. I always keep lists of things that I want to buy... and then put off buying it as long as i can. Over time, I often realize that something I really wanted to buy 3 months ago wasn't really necessary or by waiting, i came across a better price now or came up with an idea for a cheaper substitution.
re: books, i'd just add that our library is chock-full of books that i DONT like, so although my kids are free to browse the shelves, i certainly have final say in what gets checked out to bring home. i know many mothers wouldn't bother to screen books like i do - it's like, "hey, at least the kid is reading!" but i just think there are some really great books out there, and some really trashy ones. so i choose.
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JuliaT
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For school supplies, I can't afford the really good stuff, so I go the sale route and go cheap. Crayola is okay for us.
As far as workbooks go, I don't use them for our curriculum (nor do we use textbooks) but I do have them on our shelves in case the kids want to do them in their free time. We use Spelling Workout and Explode the Code in this way. I am very anti-workbook, but my dd likes doing them in a casual manner so I do buy them.
Blessings,
Julia
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stefoodie
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I get "the best" for certain things, but not for others.
Prismacolor colored pencils for our family are a must -- they get the most use; I got the largest set we could afford and replenish ever 2-3 years; gold and silver are favorites so I stock up on those when they go on sale at Michaels.
Not so markers -- I learned that the hard way. The kids were too young to appreciate the Prismacolors, so right now we're back to Crayolas or whatever's on sale; maybe when they're older we'll get good ones again.
We've bought Stockmar crayons and blocks before but I've noticed that the kids don't really have a preference, so we're back to Crayola.
I do get picky about watercolors and charcoal pencils, but I also love #2s just fine -- any brand.
We've had workbooks that ended up in the donate pile, but I've kept a few good ones. Or maybe Developmental Math and Vocabu-Lit can't be considered workbooks?
And I stock up on cheap binders too; I can't believe how expensive those things are!
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Erin
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Mary
I would have both supplies. The general ones where they can create 'quantity' and the ferby and stockmar where they can create 'quality'. Did I help? 
There certainly is a difference with the stockmar and ferby , see here for a discussion on Waldorf that may inspire you, it has me inspired also Elizabeth's art box post is one I often revisit.
I have been ringing Waldorf suppliers around the country side and speaking to a couple of Waldorf hsers and I have decided to have one afternoon a week were we create using the Stockmar's. Other times they can use the general materials.
Could you look at what you have in the way of general materials and see what you really need and buy to fit that only not to get a 'special'. Then what you have saved from that buy your Stockmar and Ferby's? Dh suggested that I start small rather than buy all at once, so I am going to buy the block crayon's first and as I see that I am happy and 'using' these new materials purchase more.
Btw one lady in a shop I rang raved about the pencils she liked them best of all the materials. I was going to start with a basic block crayons and give the pencils a miss to start with but she said I really should get the pencils even if I just started with 12. Happy shoppping.
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Mary G
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| Posted: July 22 2007 at 5:12pm | IP Logged
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Oh ladies, thanks for all the input! Erin, you deserve a big cyber hug -- this is the stuff I needed to see. I once looked into Waldorf-y stuff when I was first hsing my now 8 yos, but got distracted and forgot .... .
I love what Elizabeth says about art permeating the curriculum ... we've been doing this (esp with the help of MaryM!  ) but now I want to ratchet it up a bit and give them some better supplies to work with. Erin, you're right -- the less good stuff for them to play with, the better stuff for us all to explore.
I've found that when I play with the kids (i.e., get down and dirty or down-right messy with the glue and the paints and the wood bits) they get so much more out of the projects! If we're using the good Stockmar crayons or trying watercolor, etc, I WANT TO play too !
Now, if I can sell my dh on this slight shift ....
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Meredith
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Mary G wrote:
| I love what Elizabeth says about art permeating the curriculum ... we've been doing this (esp with the help of MaryM! ) but now I want to ratchet it up a bit and give them some better supplies to work with. Erin, you're right -- the less good stuff for them to play with, the better stuff for us all to explore. |
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Hey MaryG, check out all the fun at the Montessori Forum if you haven't been there lately, lots of good stuff there, especially about materials!!
Blessings!
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+JMJ+
I do like to buy Stockmar and Lyra, although they are not essential, I feel like they are worth the money. This site usually has competive prices.
Last year I purchased a set of Stockmar color pencils. My two ds's 6&4 colored every day. After 9 months of heavy use I finally retired the set (well actually just some of the favorite colors were just used up, the rest of the set is for taking out of the house, so I don't get parinoid if they loose them)
Betsy
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: July 22 2007 at 7:05pm | IP Logged
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Mary G wrote:
In other words, are the Stockmar crayons that much better than crayola? Are the Ferby Pencils that much better than Rose Art's pencils?
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Yes and Yes. And the Stone brand at Paper, Scissors, Stone are even better crayons.
I haven't gotten to the rest of your question because I stopped here. We got our crayons just before our trip. I ordered only one pack because I wanted to test them before buying "in bulk" for our family.
I got Katie Stone crayons with the roll up pouch. Outrageously expensive  ! What happened next was truly remarkable. Every child in my house from 4-15 sat and colored extraordinary pictures outside until it was too dark to see. The next morning, Nicholas asked for crayons before breakfast. The pouch has inspired orderliness never before seen in a house where crayolas frequently crunch underfoot.
So...I will order more beautiful beeswax crayons and I look forward to making pouches out Heather Bailey fabric left over from apron making!
And the triangular Ferbys are awesome, particularly since the orthodontist is no longer giving away triangular pencils...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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A while back I bought some Faber Castell Grip Color Pencils that have the triangular shape. I bought the container, also. They are the favorite colored pencils in this house.
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Mary G
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| Posted: July 22 2007 at 7:59pm | IP Logged
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So, Elizabeth -- your family "taste-test" shows the Stone are better than Stockmar? And when I think about how often I buy Crayolas or RoseArt crayons only to have them break (or worse, not really color), $20 doesn't seem all that much????
And Meredith, thanks for the tip about checking out the Montessori forum too ... isn't funny that all these "alternative" education pedagogies (as opposed to "traditional, real" school) suggest all these really cool manipulatives, tools and toys for us to use in our homes!
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Elizabeth
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I can't find any old Stockmars around here with which to test.But... Mary Chris said she's got some Stockmar sticks. Tomorrow, we'll have an official test for you, Mary. My hunch is the Stone ones are better but I'll get back to you.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mary G
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| Posted: July 22 2007 at 9:13pm | IP Logged
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Well, y'all have fun with your taste-test and let us know ... and if you make the bags yourself, the Stone aren't much more than the Stockmar AND you've got the kids treating them with more patience as they're not in a crudy ol' paper box!
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MaryG
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Erin
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Mary G wrote:
| Now, if I can sell my dh on this slight shift .... |
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Well you could try my dh's 'suggestion' and just buy a bit at a time. Harder to do though if you are factoring in postage I know.
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MicheleQ
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We use both. We have some expensive, er I mean quality art supplies and A LOT of the cheap stuff. And looking at the sale papers this evening I will be heading out tomorrow to buy more!
I have found creativity is sparked by having the supplies available AND by me sitting down and doing it with them. Recently I have been learning to draw and have my own journal which my children ask to see regularly to gauge my progress. It's amazing how this has made them want to work in their own journals. I looked around the room tonight and felt a great sense of satisfaction to see five of us sitting at the dining room table drawing (all while listening to Beethoven). It was lovely. We were using cheap supplies - no one cared. We were sharing in something special and THAT is what mattered.
Recently I read a blog post that really hit home in this area (and others) for me. Willa had linked to it from her blog.
Here's an excerpt that particularly hit me:
In the end, the discount store pajamas and the nice quality, 'better' version will both be dust. The silly plastic beads in the dress-up box will fall into the same decay as the expensive, handcrafted wooden blocks residing on the artisan toy shelf. Our simple but costly hand-fired earthenware dishes will meet the same fate as Great-Aunt Betsy's pre-war Woolworth 'fine' china; the library of leather-bound classics will moulder just as badly as endless paperback copies of "Little House" books.
We can see this clearly, if we open our eyes to it.
What bits and pieces remain of ancient Greece or Rome? How much of ancient Crete survives? What is left of Ur of the Chaldeans? Alas, Babylon; you, too, are dust. The fragments of once great cities hide a favorite vase or pot, left in shivered fragments in the mud; from the tomb of the Pharaohs a gold mask is lifted, and placed in a museum for our edification, its wearer long past the point where he could complain that the colors didn't please him or that he had too many gold masks already.
Jesus put it this way, speaking to His apostles: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and decay destroy, and thieves break in and steal. But store up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay destroys, nor thieves break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be." (Matt 6: 19-21)"
Elizabeth you have said it before and I will repeat it - it's all about relationships.
I'm sorry if I've gotten off track but this has been on my mind a lot lately and it just seemed to fit as I read this thread. I am NOT criticizing anyone for buying quality items, just saying that in the end it's not quality OR quantity - it's about what we did with the time we had.
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chicken lady
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| Posted: July 23 2007 at 7:55am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
and I look forward to making pouches out Heather Bailey fabric left over from apron making!
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Can we move this quote to Our Ladies Loom and ask Elizabeth to share?
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chicken lady
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Sorry Mary, I got side tracked there
As to your original post.....we do alot of Waldorf over here, I have found my dc take better care of the quality materials. They naturally respect the items. Lng run I think it is less expensive. I know their art is more beautiful, they take more time exploring the colors, feeling the wool, sanding the wood etc.
I appreciate the philosphy....when you teach children true vs false with tangible materials very early, they have an easier time applying good vs evil as they grow.
I go to a Waldorf school and pick up needed supplies. It is hard somedays I want itall
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Mary G
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MicheleQ wrote:
Elizabeth you have said it before and I will repeat it - it's all about relationships.
I'm sorry if I've gotten off track but this has been on my mind a lot lately and it just seemed to fit as I read this thread. I am NOT criticizing anyone for buying quality items, just saying that in the end it's not quality OR quantity - it's about what we did with the time we had.
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Michele -- you haven't gotten us off track -- you've succinctly explained exactly what I needed to hear: it's all about relationships; it's about the process, not the product; it's about the love of learning, not the passing of the tests.
So as I mentioned earlier, I think I'll stay with both (as Erin put it) and have the less-good stuff for just having out all the time and letting them individually use as the spirit moves them; the better stuff for when we are experimenting and doing it all together ....
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MaryG
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Mary G
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chicken lady wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
and I look forward to making pouches out Heather Bailey fabric left over from apron making!
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Can we move this quote to Our Ladies Loom and ask Elizabeth to share?
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Of course we can .... and I will now
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MaryG
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Quality or Quantity
