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Angel
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| Posted: April 28 2007 at 7:02pm | IP Logged
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I'm trying to evaluate Montessori manuals for my elementary aged children, but I'm having a hard time comparing the (expensive) NAMC manualswith the (cheaper) Montessori R&D manuals, largely because I can't see inside the R&D manuals! I have the primary mathematics manual from NAMC and I really like it because it is so visual. I've been using it with my 8 yo (2nd grade) dd and plan to use it for the little boys, too, so the price will be spread out a bit. But if the R&D manuals are just as good (and I know many people use them), then I'd rather not spend a bunch of money I don't need to!
Still, in a perfect world in which you were able to spend as much money as you wanted on curriculum, which manuals would you pick and why?
--Angela
Three Plus Two
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Celeste
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| Posted: April 28 2007 at 9:08pm | IP Logged
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Hi, Angela! If I had unlimited funds I would buy both! (I know, really helpful.)
Both have strengths and weaknesses. (Caveat: I have not used the primary manuals for either, only the elementary; all my comments refer to the elementary manuals.)
NAMC strengths: pictures, presentations, extensions.
NAMC weaknesses: does not go beyond age 9; some factual errors; some presentations left out; in math, presentations are grouped by topic, not by order of presentation. Very expensive.
R&D strengths: Goes beyond age 9; presentations within subjects sequential, not topical; seems to be more thorough. Much cheaper.
R&D weaknesses: No pictures. I prepare for the presentations with a Nienhuis catalog, so I can better visualize the materials.
NAMC is, I think, one fellow publishing his training albums. (If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.) R&D seems to be a group of people (and also seems more academic).
If I had it to do over I think I would buy the R&D instead of the NAMC. (I hadn't heard of it when I bought the NAMC five years ago.) But it might have been frustrating because of the lack of pictures. Perhaps I have more confidence in doing R&D because I've had the pictures. I think you get much more academic information for your money with R&D, if you don't mind not having the pictures.
I hope this helps a teeny tiny bit!
Celeste
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Celeste
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Meredith
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| Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:31pm | IP Logged
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Thank you Celeste for your insight here on both the manual options!! I know others will appreciate your assessment and experience with both of these!!
Blessings!
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Meredith
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Angel
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| Posted: May 09 2007 at 4:18pm | IP Logged
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I'm a bit late with my thanks -- but didn't want to not post them!! Thanks, Celeste -- a great answer to my questions. I think I may end up buying a couple of the NAMC albums in subjects in which I really need pictures (math, basically) but the R&D manuals really do look as if they are much more substantial, especially for an 8 and 10 yo.
Now I'm just in the process of figuring out which ones I want to use. 
--Angela
Three Plus Two
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Meredith
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 9:03am | IP Logged
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Thank you again Celeste, this IS extremely helpful!!
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Meredith
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earthmaven
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 9:31am | IP Logged
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My thanks, too. It makes such a difference to gain other people's insights.
In case you haven't tried it...I e-mailed R&D and asked them if they could send me a few sample pages (not just table of contents) for a few different manuals and they were happy to do so. That was also a big help.
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Meredith
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 9:47am | IP Logged
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Great idea! I think I'll do that too!
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Meredith
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Eleanor
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We have several R&D albums for various ages, as well as the full set of NAMC primary albums. The NAMC ones are okay, and I might get a couple of their elementary albums (e.g. math), just to have the pictures. Overall, though, I prefer the R&D ones, for the same reasons Celeste gave.
If you do go with R&D, I'd suggest getting the 3-hole punched albums, rather than the bound ones. This would let you add your own pages of notes, diagrams, photo printouts, etc. In addition, the bound albums don't really lie flat, and the pages sometimes fall out.
It would also be a good idea to try to get a peek at the specific R&D albums you're interested in... or ask here, to see if someone has used them. Not all of them are of the same quality. For instance, the primary "Geography Manual" was written in 1997 by Pamela Zell Lanaro, who's credited with many of the R&D manuals. The descriptions are thorough and easy to follow, and the reproducible materials (labels and flags) are very clear.
Meanwhile, the combined primary "History & Geography Manual" is very different in style (though it covers many of the same materials). It was written by Virginia Fleege in 1969, and was last revised in 1985. It's typewritten, and the descriptions seem quite basic. At least 1/3 of the manual is taken up with reproducible materials, which are largely useless due to poor image quality (and are also more or less redundant, in this era of home computers). All in all, it takes up a lot of shelf space for such a small amount of useful information. I'd much rather get the standalone Geography album, and buy a separate History album from another source -- or just use pages downloaded from online albums. (The history material covers activities like timelines, calendars, etc.)
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Angel
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 4:12pm | IP Logged
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Oh, boy. I'm wondering if I shouldn't have asked for sample pages first? I only ordered the elementary manuals, not the primary. I got:
Math 1,2
geometry 1,2
Language 1-4
Geography
Biology
Chemistry
The kids and I both like the way we do history, so I didn't worry about the history manuals. I've been feeling the need for a way to organize our science, though -- the kids know a lot of information, and I think they're ready to put it in some kind of framework -- so I targeted biology and chemistry/matter as being the areas most about organization of the universe/life.
I did get the loose-leaf versions, though.
--Angela
Three Plus Two
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Eleanor
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We have the first few elementary math manuals, and they look great to me. I'd guess that the science ones are also very good, since Montessori R&D was originally established to create updated science materials for schools. 
We don't have any of the R&D language manuals, although maybe we should get some. This is the area where I was the most dissatisfied with the NAMC primary training, as they downplayed traditional Montessori language arts in favor of their own "integrated" phonics method that relies heavily on teacher-paced schedules, workbooks, and the Insta-Learn board. The most irksome part is that they don't clearly indicate which of the activities in the album are traditional Montessori, and which ones are NAMC additions... so you're pretty much stuck using their method, unless you're already enough of an expert to do the necessary weeding out.
(Isn't it funny how promoters of an "inclusive" and "open-minded" approach so often end up imposing a de facto orthodoxy of their own?  )
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Meredith
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Thank you Eleanor, this is so helpful! It's so hard make any decisions sight unseen  I'm glad to hear your comparisons of the combined manuals and the stand alone. Now just for clarification: Primary = 3-6? and Elementary = 6-12??
Thanks so much!
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Meredith
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Eleanor
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Yes, primary is the standard Montessori term for ages 3-6 -- although R&D calls this stage "early childhood," and NAMC calls it "preschool/kindergarten." (Not sure why they changed the terminology... just to keep things interesting, I guess!)
Lower elementary is 6-9, and upper elementary is 9-12.
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lapazfarm
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If any of you ladies are going to the conference and have any of the manuals, could you pretty please bring them so we can all have a look?
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Theresa
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Eleanor
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 5:41pm | IP Logged
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I can't make it to the conference (34 weeks pregnant + 4800 mile round trip + August heat = not a good combination), but I'd be happy to describe any of the contents, or scan a couple of pages from a specific section.
Here's what we have from R&D:
Environments for the Infant/Toddler - Part#: MIT.E
Language Arts for the Two Year Old - Part#: MIT.LA
Sensorial For the Two Year Old - Part#: MIT.S
Practical Life for the Two Year Old - Part#: MIT.PL
History and Geography Manual (Early Childhood - ages 3 to 6) - Part#: MP.HG
Early Childhood (ages 3 to 6) Geography Manual - Part#: MP.G
Early Childhood (ages 3 to 6) Botany Manual 1 - Part#: MP.B1
Early Childhood (ages 3 to 6) Zoology Manual - Part#: MP.Z
Elementary Mathematics Manual 1 (Same material as in MP.M1) - Part#: ME.M1
Elementary Mathematics Manual 2 - Part#: ME.M2
Elementary Mathematics Manual 3 - Part#: ME.M3
Elementary Mathematics Manual 4 - Part#: ME.M4
... as well as all of the NAMC primary (3-6) manuals.
Other than the combined history/geography one, they all seem worth keeping, at least until I get a better grasp of things. I've started dividing up some of the R&D manuals, and filing each presentation next to the corresponding one in the NAMC binder. (I wanted to do it the other way around, but it wouldn't work, since NAMC uses both sides of the paper, whereas the R&D pages are only printed on one side.) I'll probably be adding some of Karen's material, as well.
I just can't decide whether to keep all this stuff in the "office" (where I make & store materials), or in the "classroom" area. Of course, we're supposed to have the presentations memorized ahead of time, but it's sometimes necessary for me to look something up. Needless to say, it's not much fun lugging the books back and forth!
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Angel
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 6:54pm | IP Logged
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Eleanor,
What do you think of the toddler manuals?
I wish I was going to the conference, but I'm sort of in the same boat -- I'll be 36 weeks pregnant. I got an email today saying that the manuals had shipped UPS, so I ought to get them soon!
--Angela
Three Plus Two
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Eleanor
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I'm enjoying the toddler manuals so far. Lots of new ideas. I'm still working through them, but I'll get back to you with specifics as I think of them.
For now, I'll just say that I used to wish I could take the infant/toddler training (AMI or otherwise), but now that I've looked through these manuals, I don't really feel that desire any more. I can see that the training would be very valuable to those who work in Infant Communities, but, with all due respect, the actual process of giving one-on-one presentations to a toddler isn't exactly rocket science. With a reasonable foundation in Montessori's theories of development from birth to 3 years (from the works of MM, Silvana Montanaro, et al.), and these album pages to suggest an order and sequence to the activities, I feel pretty confident.
On the other hand, if someone offered a training course in working with toddlers in the context of a household full of children of different ages, with all their varied activities, needs, and schedules... I'd be signed up before you could blink. And the album would be worth its weight in gold. 
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Mackfam
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Wow - I'm just reading through this thread...thank you so much everyone for your insights!!!
I'm really wondering about the R&D manuals now. This is very helpful information to keep in mind. The 6-12 age group is so difficult to find presentations for in some, if not all of the areas. I'm really going to have to look hard at these.
Angela - In the elementary manuals, what do the numbers indicate?
Angela or Eleanor - Do the manuals have a comprehensive listing of all the materials required for the presentations? This is probably a question that will have to wait for Angela when she receives hers, but I was wondering, are there some presentations that allow for extensions of previously used materials - like using the Pink Tower, or Brown Stair in some math applications? Maybe Celeste is still around and can answer that one.
I'm definitely going to email them and ask them for samples. Oh dear though what if I like them?
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Celeste
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 8:46pm | IP Logged
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I have R&D Geometry 2, Decimals, Fractions 2. That was my first order to test the waters. I completed fractions 2 with dd 10--went very well.
(I always wondered why multiplying fractions made things smaller, and dividing them made them bigger. Now I get it. At least I figured it out before age 40. I love Montessori. They say it's good for warding off senility, too.)
We've enjoyed decimals, too. (Again, I get it. Finally.)
Each lessons lists materials required, as in the NAMC albums, but there's no comprehensive list. Haven't seen extensions for primary materials yet. I've heard of them in Lillard's books, so they must exist; although her books give the impression that these are child-driven extensions. "Children Who Are Not Yet Peaceful" by Goertz also makes mention of this--elem children going into the primary classroom for materials.
I ordered Math 1, 2, and 3, Geometry 1 (the geometry provided by NAMC in no way prepares for R&D Geometry 2), Geography 1 and 2, and Geology. They are scheduled to arrive tomorrow (but they're in Lenexa, KS, at the moment, so I don't see how). I can't wait!
I would love to hear reviews of their elementary language arts, Angela, if you get a chance.
Celeste
P.S. I have the "original" NAMC albums, not the most recent revisions.
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Celeste
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| Posted: July 12 2007 at 9:56pm | IP Logged
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Going through my new RD (elementary) Geometry 1 Manual. So far liking it. The appendices have a list of materials to keep on hand, like string, yarn, tracing paper, etc.; a chart showing the arrangement of geometry materials on the shelves (just the kind of hand-holding I like); a list of labels for the geometry cabinet (and instructions to cut them out and tape them to the backs of the figures. Would I have figured that out on my own? Probably not til the kids were in high school).
Celeste
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: July 12 2007 at 11:39pm | IP Logged
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Oh, I wish I could afford these! They sound so great! 
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Theresa
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4Real Forums : Nurturing the Years of Wonder
Topic: NAMC vs Montessori R&D
