| Author | |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 6:24am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
The latest modesty thread is getting long and cumbersome and will be heading off to the archives soon. I thought I'd take Helen's post on virtues and put it here so that we can more easily talk about how our dress enhances virtue and how we reflect our feminine nature in what we wear.
Helen wrote:
Is a skirt the only measure of femininity or modesty? Of course not. Modesty is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and as such it is very profound. It is a quality that is difficult to describe in words because it is something that is lived in a person. When you meet a person who practices and cultivates modesty – you know it. Children under the age of ten with their innate thirst for truth, under ordinary conditions, will know purity. Unfortunately for adults, due to the effects of original sin, they do not immediately and intuitively understand (a gift of the Holy Spirit) the meaning of modesty (a fruit of the Holy Spirit.) (I have to go look up the quote from Our Lord...Unless you be like one of these...)
Since man is not a pure spirit, but a composite of body and soul (and St. Edith Stein also says psyche), what we do with our bodies will affect our souls and vice versa. Having a concern about what protects our bodies, the temple of the Holy Spirit, will also impact the development of our spiritual life. The saints teach that if we work on one virtue we work on all of them.
My experience with wearing a skirt is that it is the proximate cause of various virtues. (Are there other ways of practicing these virtues – Certainly!) My experience tells me that wearing a skirt allows a daily ability to practice these virtues.
1. I can’t seem to get around the fact that Our Lady never appeared in slacks. She is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the one through whom God has chosen to distribute His graces to the world, and She never once wore slacks. Our Lady is the paradigm of Catholic femininity and Christian perfection. Wearing a skirt I imitate Our Lady.
2. In 1917 when Our Lady appeared in Fatima she said there will be many fashions that greatly offend the Lord. Before 1960, women did not wear slacks. Constant wearing of slacks by women is a fairly new idea. (Did our grandmothers or mothers ever or routinely wear slacks?) Wearing a skirt I listen to Our Lady.
3. Who wears the pants in your house? I believe this old saying contains a kernel of truth. It is good for the family to have a head – the father- and a heart- the mother. I have found a healthy obedience is nurtured by wearing a skirt.
4. Detachment from body image.
In slacks, gaining one pound to five pounds makes a difference. One notices pretty quickly in the inseam. I have found because of wearing skirts, I hardly ever step on the scale – it just doesn’t matter as much.
5. Gentility
In trying to cultivate a genteel spirit within myself and my home, I have found that a skirt assists this mentality and behavior. One is more inclined to sit like a lady, walk like one, behave like a lady in a dress. If the skirt is A-line than outdoor activities and playing with children on the floor are not encumbered. In fact, I find I like to sit on the floor with my children in a skirt. I don’t notice my body as much as I did in slacks.
6. Mortification.
Sometimes I do feel like a dress or skirt is a public hairshirt. Sometimes, it isn’t as easy. But, then Our Lady asked at Fatima: Are you willing to offer yourselves in sacrifice?
7. Example/Witness to the World
The Lord prayed for those of His own who were in the world yet not of the world. As He was persecuted, so would His own. If I am really one of His, I shouldn’t easily fit in with the world’s standards.
8. Modesty
Slacks definitely point out a certain part of the body more so than skirts.
|
|
|
I find myself nodding in agreement with each of these points. I do have one area where I struggle though: I'm more productive in pants. When I have to really clean around here, I keep my pajamas on (NOT a good thing). I can't seem to do the messy things well when dressed in nicer clothes, even if we're talking about a jean skirt. Perhaps this will come with time?
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bridget
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2198
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 6:43am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| I'm more productive in pants. When I have to really clean around here, I keep my pajamas on (NOT a good thing). I can't seem to do the messy things well when dressed in nicer clothes, even if we're talking about a jean skirt. Perhaps this will come with time? |
|
|
I used to do that too! Then I got bleach on my favorite comfy knit skirt and now it's my cleaning skirt.
My mom siad my grandmother, who was the height of fashion among her friends, wore the typical house dress in the morning for the heavy cleaning and food prep. Then changed for the afternoon of church meetings, visiting, school stuff for her kids etc.
I guess we don't want those frumpy, cotten house dresses back, but there must be a comfy alternative for today.
__________________
God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 9:44am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Ugh! Noooo! Not house dresses! 
I guess I am not worried about how I appear to others as I am cleaning. I toss on sweats. I will probably not wear a skirt while hanging drywall, or painting the floor, or soldering copper pipe...
Come to think of it, these do not seem like terribly feminine ways to occupy my time  .
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ladybugs
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3732
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 9:56am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| When I have to really clean around here, I keep my pajamas on (NOT a good thing). |
|
|
Now, I don't feel so crazy...
__________________
Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
momwise
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 28 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 10:22am | IP Logged
|
|
|
MacBeth wrote:
| Come to think of it, these do not seem like terribly feminine ways to occupy my time . |
|
|
Just imagine the girly feeling you'll get when you can cook again
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 10:25am | IP Logged
|
|
|
momwise wrote:
| Just imagine the girly feeling you'll get when you can cook again |
|
|
Ohhhh, yeah!
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rebecca
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 30 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1898
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 10:35am | IP Logged
|
|
|
ladybugs wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
| When I have to really clean around here, I keep my pajamas on (NOT a good thing). |
|
|
Now, I don't feel so crazy... |
|
|
I think you are only crazy if you still have them on at dinner time!  I know someone who did that last winter a few times when hugely pregnant... 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Christine
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 10:41am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Helen, I don't know how to thank you. What you have written makes so much sense and has given me a lot to think about.
I see wearing skirts and dresses mostly as a femininity issue, which ultimately ties into the virtue of modesty. My grandmother always wore skirts or dresses. One of my aunts (a very devout lady) has never worn pants. My children's favorite pediatrician only wore dresses or skirts. She seemed much more friendly, professional, and motherly (despite the fact that she was childless and unmarried) than any other pediatrician I have met. Several years ago, when I tutored for a homeschooling family, I used to wear mostly dresses. The mother thanked me for wearing dresses and mentioned the positive impact it had on her girls. One of my great aunts and one of my grandmother’s cousins went hiking in the alps in skirts in 1993. They wore knickers or something similar under their skirts, for the sake of modesty.
My problem is one that Helen mentioned in a previous post. I keep the pants that are given to me by others and wear them. At the same time, I only buy skirts or dresses for myself and my daughters. My girls are much more comfortable wearing dresses and are learning about the necessity of wearing shorts underneath their dresses. When our daughters wear skirts or dresses, teaching parts of the virtue of modesty seem to come naturally.
I believe wearing dresses and skirts all the time helps foster respect for those who are dressing femininely and for womanhood in general.
__________________
Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
StephanieA
Forum Pro
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 394
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 11:29am | IP Logged
|
|
|
5. Gentility
In trying to cultivate a genteel spirit within myself and my home, I have found that a skirt assists this mentality and behavior. One is more inclined to sit like a lady, walk like one, behave like a lady in a dress. If
I totally agree with this! In a skirt, I do walk and act more feminine. For this reason alone, I should be wearing more skirts - like everyday all day as I did several years ago.
But I can't agree the reason I would wear a skirt has anything to do with Mary's request at Fatima or what she wore. I was very interested in this several years back and of course, bought a book by Fr. Daniel-Rops that explained a bit what Mary and Jesus would have worn. Basically men and women wore about the same thing: a saq (which was basically underwear - what our Lord wore when he was baptized in the Jordan, a chalouk - a coat or tunic, a cloak, a belt, and a head-covering. The real difference (because the Law utterly forbade men to wear women's clothes and visa versa) was the greater fineness of the material for women and the more ample cut. From the tractate Shabbath, we find that to distinguish men and women's clothing, women wore ribbons made of wool and silk, shawls over their shoulders, plaited strands, and a variety of ornaments. Both men and women routinely wore ornaments of various kinds. There are scripture verses alluding to ornamentation, earrings, etc. (but NO piercing - it was against Jewish law). Anyway, Mary dressed femininely, in her dress for her times. I can't even picture her with ANY ribbons, etc., maybe an extra shawl, but she must have in order to have followed Jewish law.
I think the real reason we should encourage more skirt-wearing is not modesty, but femininity. If it were a modesty issue, I would have a really tough time EVER wearing a swimming suit, even a modest one. However you try to justify it, you are exposing much more than you would with a decently long pair of shorts. I actually don't go to public places in a swimming suit anymore anyway. I got sick of taking my kids to the public pool because of the language, poor behavior, and the immodest dress, so we are installing a cheap above-ground pool in our yard this year. My kids are part fish though.
True, in OUR culture, women never wore pants. Again, this isn't the same for all cultures (ie. the Vietnamese) and Mary was also speaking to them at Fatima too. So I would say, we should encourage more skirt-wearing because in our culture, it is more feminine and if we want our men to treat us like a lady, then we will have to dress and act like one.
That said, my problem several years ago was the darn frumpy look. I had khaki and jean skirts - the uniform of the homeschooling mother. My husband began hating "the look". Maybe I should have gotten a new hair-do or SOMETHING, but I finally divested my wardrobe of my ugliest jean skirts and donned on pants occasionally. Now I am back to wearing too many pants around the house although when I go out, I am usually in a skirt.
So now that I am expecting and my pants are getting too tight, I am going to look for skirts, but I am going to try not to fall into the frumpy look - especially for my husband's sake. Men are visual creatures and who wants to come home from the office made up of "put together, fashionable women" to an overtired, pregnant, frumpy wife? I really don't want to feel frumpy at 42 either.
My graying hair, thickening glasses, and being constantly sick right now does enough damage to my sense of well-being.
In principle, I totally agree with skirts. Now to gradually divest my wardrobe of my pants, adding back some decent skirts. But no more jean skirts for now. I already own 3 that I overwear. Got to find another "look"
that is feminine, but nice, even around the house.
Thanks for the link to the cute maternity skirt at Old Navy! That will be my first purchase.
Blessings,
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
StephanieA
Forum Pro
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 394
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 1:05pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I want to echo the same "thanks" someone mentioned about bringing up this subject to begin with. While I won't give up my shorts/capris when I play tennis, etc. I CAN wear skirts most of the time. This was just a prod for me in the right direction at the right time to be a little more feminine, although I have always been modest. Thanks!
Blessings,
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Sarah
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1624
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 1:14pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| I can't seem to do the messy things well when dressed in nicer clothes, even if we're talking about a jean skirt. Perhaps this will come with time? |
|
|
Perhaps because you view the skirt/dress as nice clothes (I'm just guessing here). I don't think of my everyday skirts as nice. I have nice skirts and then I have gardening skirts and everyday skirts. . .the kind the kids wipe their noses on and I cook spaghetti in. I just don't feel as attached to those and thus don't feel as I would if I were wearing a nice, more costly skirt. So, I'm not as careful in those.
That being said, I find denim skirts rather limiting. My tend to be straighter and if I can't move in the thing, I clean or garden slower. I wear a fuller skirt or a knit one. We have Chrisopher and Banks here, a department store with nice, modest clothing, and since their stuff tends to be not so costly I don't feel as guilty if it gets worn more.
It will come, if you are wanting it to. Wearing a skirt is great. There are many religious who do all their farming, carpentry, cooking, etc in cassock or habit. However, I'm NOT saying that a person IS sinful if they wear pants for those things, I'm just being supportive to those who WANT to do it.
__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Cay Gibson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 16 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5193
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 1:25pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
 Helen these are all wonderful points. Thank you!
I also wear my pjs in the morning if I'm cleaning because I can just jump into the shower afterwards.
I am pleased to see (as I mentioned in the modesty thread) how many stores are carrying skirts for young girls now. They are becoming pretty common around town and I do see the appeal in just slipping one on, donning those flip-flops, and taking off. You're presentable no matter where you go.
I am supportive of skirt and dress-wearers as well and really would like to adapt my wardrobe more with that in mind.
Two things keep me from it. When I wear a skirt my gut sticks out. People automatically assume I'm pregnant. If I were, that's be great.  But, when you aren't, you know you're just getting fat. I also don't think my dh would like me to wear a skirt 24/7. He likes me in capris.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 1:30pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Sarah wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
| I can't seem to do the messy things well when dressed in nicer clothes, even if we're talking about a jean skirt. Perhaps this will come with time? |
|
|
Perhaps because you view the skirt/dress as nice clothes (I'm just guessing here). I don't think of my everyday skirts as nice. I have nice skirts and then I have gardening skirts and everyday skirts. . .the kind the kids wipe their noses on and I cook spaghetti in. I just don't feel as attached to those and thus don't feel as I would if I were wearing a nice, more costly skirt. So, I'm not as careful in those.
That being said, I find denim skirts rather limiting. My tend to be straighter and if I can't move in the thing, I clean or garden slower. I wear a fuller skirt or a knit one.
|
|
|
This is probably part of it. I don't have any old skirts yet.I have carefully collected skirts that I want to last forever. And I do have a good collection of denim skirts but they don't do for me what my jeans did in this regard because of the reasons you mentioned above (but I got them to substitute for jeans--that's the biggest problem). I need to reserve some inexpensive knit skirts for chores.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 1:35pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I like wearing skirts. Before I had my toddler, I wore them frequently. But my shape has changed, my activity levels have changed and the skirts that used to look good on me don't work. I can't seem to find flattering skirts that are also machine washable, and don't have time (or patience) to fit a pattern and sew. All my skirts now are dry clean only, so I save them for going out.
I need the old skirts that I could just do anything, but so far, not.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Danielle
Forum Newbie
Joined: Aug 27 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 2:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Detachment from body image.
In slacks, gaining one pound to five pounds makes a difference. One notices pretty quickly in the inseam. I have found because of wearing skirts, I hardly ever step on the scale – it just doesn’t matter as much.
I like some of the other points you make Helen, particularly with regard to skirt-wearing as a means of cultivating gentility. But I just can't get past this one. This sounds to me more like a reason to wear slacks than skirts. Not that I think we should have an unhealthy attachment to body image, but I really think it is part of a wife's duty to keep herself and her body attractive for her husband. Wearing skirts so that you won't notice yourself putting on weight just seems like a bad idea.
I'll admit that I wear skirts only when going to Mass or some other "dressy" place, but I do this out of consideration for my husband's preferences. He likes me to wear modern more stylish clothing. Within reason, of course (no exposed bellies or skintight styles here). I know there are some modern-looking skirts, but I have yet to find one that I can reasonably wear out to the chicken coop.
I agree with previous posters who said that skirt/dress wearing has more to do with being feminine than it does with being modest. I think maybe the other thread on this topic got a bit ugly because some statements that seem innocuous to many here seem way over the top to outsiders (There might be women who lurk here and are afraid to post because they don't feel they quite fit the mold). If you say we should encourage skirts in order to be more feminine, people will have trouble arguing with that and be open to what you have to say. But if you tie it in with modesty and what Our Lady wore (there are thousands of things Mary never did that it is perfectly okay to do-- we live in a different time) people are likely to feel judged and get defensive.
__________________
Danielle
My Website
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 2:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Danielle wrote:
Detachment from body image.
In slacks, gaining one pound to five pounds makes a difference. One notices pretty quickly in the inseam. I have found because of wearing skirts, I hardly ever step on the scale – it just doesn’t matter as much.
I like some of the other points you make Helen, particularly with regard to skirt-wearing as a means of cultivating gentility. But I just can't get past this one. This sounds to me more like a reason to wear slacks than skirts. Not that I think we should have an unhealthy attachment to body image, but I really think it is part of a wife's duty to keep herself and her body attractive for her husband. Wearing skirts so that you won't notice yourself putting on weight just seems like a bad idea. |
|
|
I think if we look at Helen's point in the context of some of the other threads which deal with anorexia and an unhealthy obsession with weight it makes more sense. I don't think she's suggesting that we let ourselves go, only that a daily obsession with the scale isn't healthy. For what it's worth, Helen really is lovelyand not a bit frumpy.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Sarah
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1624
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 2:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| I have carefully collected skirts that I want to last forever. |
|
|
I know just what you talking about here. The "Wait! Don't touch me, use that towel!" kind of skirts.
You need the kind that you are so comfortable in that you DON'T notice the staining until AFTER the incident, and that you're not constantly monitoring. Do you have Christopher and Banks? If you spend $12.99 on a rayon skirt that fits nicely, and is completely machine washable, you just don't feel bad getting dirty. Its hard to find. If you go to a place like Talbots and buy a skirt for $65, then you really feel differently.
Not all rayon is made equally, either. When I've bought stuff from Cold Water Creek, it has shrunk terribly. That's no good--dry cleaning it out for me, at least for what I consider everyday wear.
Target is cheap quality and the sizes don't run true. You don't want to look dumpy either. If you feel like you're wearing a potato sack, you're not really doing anything about feeling feminine.
Its a hard one! I like the LONG black knit skirts from motherhood maternity for PG and then I even wore them after, since you couldn't tell.
__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 2:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I remember back when I was young and pregnant and living on a farm in Florida The only thing cool and comfortable enough for me to wear out to feed the animals or tend the garden were loosely fitted cotton sundresses. They were pullover, no buttons or belts and the most comfortable things on earth, yet still feminine and flattering. I had alot of them and they were cheap, so I didn't mind them getting dirty. I would definitely wear them for housework now if I could find them nowdays. But sundresses now seem to always be tightly fitted or very bare with spaghetti straps or bare backs. Not modest at all.
Anybody got any links to share for what I am looking for?
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Danielle
Forum Newbie
Joined: Aug 27 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 2:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Of course Helen is lovely! I hope no one thought I was implying otherwise! It's just that the "letting yourself go" idea is one that I tend to struggle with. Sometimes, it's just so much easier to wear my "bigger" pants than admit that I really need to take control of my weight and lose a few pounds. The problem is, if I keep doing that, even my "bigger" pants become small!
__________________
Danielle
My Website
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: June 06 2006 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Danielle wrote:
| Of course Helen is lovely! I hope no one thought I was implying otherwise! It's just that the "letting yourself go" idea is one that I tend to struggle with. Sometimes, it's just so much easier to wear my "bigger" pants than admit that I really need to take control of my weight and lose a few pounds. The problem is, if I keep doing that, even my "bigger" pants become small! |
|
|
I have to agree with Danielle that I had the same train of thought. If I'm hiding behind skirts so I'm not reminded to take care of myself, it might be better to have a few slacks to at least try on for the reminders! I'm struggling with my weight right now. I can still fit in my size 4 and 6 skirts...but darn if my size 10 pants are getting too snug.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Skirts and virtue
