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MarilynW
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Ooh - I am feeling radical this morning!!!Quote by Erasmus
"I have no patience with the the stupidity of the average teacher of grammar who wastes precious years in hammering rules into children's heads. For it is not by learning rules that we acquire the powers of speaking a language, but with daily intercourse with those accustomed to express themselves with exactness and refinement and by copious reading of the best authors."
My dd could have written the above - after spending days on diagramming, when she would rather be reading her many good books!!!
Any thoughts? (from one who has insisted on Seton grammar, Rod and Staff and others!!!!)
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Marilyn
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Martha
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I'm a moderate...
I love Seton Press materials and will continue to use them.
But not every day and maybe not every year.
Do they need to know what a noun is?
Yes.
Do they need to study grammar every day of every year to have a firm grasp of proper word usuage?
No.
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Rachel May
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I think the study of grammar is great for refining concepts that we have learned through reading. For example, in high school we had a special grammar books that explained concepts like misplaced modifiers, incorrectly used gerunds, and series of inequal things (nouns and verb phrases joined together). I don't diagram my sentences, but I do look over my work with those rules in mind when I email or post so I'm grateful to have learned them.
I won't recommend an age or approach since we're still young homescholars. I think Elizabeth described a very natural way to approach grammar in her book, right?
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Tina P.
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MarilynW wrote:
Ooh - I am feeling radical this morning!!!Quote by Erasmus
"I have no patience with the the stupidity of the average teacher of grammar who wastes precious years in hammering rules into children's heads. For it is not by learning rules that we acquire the powers of speaking a language, but with daily intercourse with those accustomed to express themselves with exactness and refinement and by copious reading of the best authors."
Any thoughts? (from one who has insisted on Seton grammar, Rod and Staff and others!!!!) |
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DON'T TELL YOUR DAUGHTER what I am about to say or my whole yard will be covered in toilet-paper!  Confession (one of many, I am sure): I actually enjoyed diagramming sentences. That was my favorite part of grammar  God made our minds so different. This is one of the miracles of our lives on earth. I lean so far to the writing side of my brain that I'm ignorant in pretty much everything else. Whew! OK, with that out of the way, is there any way you can make diagramming FUN? I'm investigating what I can about Winston Grammar. It just looks like fun to me FOR MY KIDS. No writing, no fuss, and I *think* my kids will retain more doing grammar kinesthetically than they have been doing CHC-write-in-the-workbook-style grammar.
I *do* believe that kids need to know grammar rules. This is especially true if they want or need to study foreign languages somewhere down the line. And they'll forget some things. My husband had to take a college grammar course to teach a management class for work and he asked me, who hadn't been to college for ... uh ... 15 years or so at the time, for help. I needed a refresher course myself!
But I don't see why we can't make it fun for them and not so labor-intensive on us. I've been frustrated because I had my kids in CHC grammar for the past several years. Though it slightly spirals through the years, my kids are retaining ZERO! That's why I'm looking for a more game-like approach to teach them the parts of speech and how to use them most effectively.
If your kids get to college and are still writing run-on sentences or incomplete sentences, they'll get eaten alive! They will have to write for *every* subject in college.
I'm in the camp that 10 minutes of play per day ought to cement the facts. However, I'm also in the camp (since my kids aren't retaining by me telling them to complete two pages per day) that says we have to sit wth them and play. I'm ever so much more of a player than a worker since I started homeschooling. 
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JennGM
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Tina P. wrote:
| DON'T TELL YOUR DAUGHTER what I am about to say or my whole yard will be covered in toilet-paper! Confession (one of many, I am sure): I actually enjoyed diagramming sentences. That was my favorite part of grammar God made our minds so different. player than a worker since I started homeschooling. |
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Tina, I've been feeling like I've been following along your posts and saying "Me, too!" all week! I LOVE diagraming sentences and love the challenges of grammar. And when I got to foreign languages the grammar challenge was fun, too! But the other languages were easier because of the grammar background.
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vmalott
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Jenn,
I was kind of the opposite, in that I learned more about english grammar while studying a foreign language than I did in english class. I studied Spanish throughout high school, then moved onto German in college. Diagramming was reserved for 7th grade, and most of us just did what we needed to pass. Did it stick? No. I'm not saying that's the case for everyone who has to diagram sentences. Personally, I think it is one of those activities that works with certain types of thinkers. 
That said, I do agree that grammar needs to be approached in some way. Does it need to be diagramming? Not necessarily. I'm really intrigued by the Montessori sentence/reading analysis materials, which seem to provide a hands-on way of learning the functions of words within sentences. Instead of doing pencil and paper diagramming (with the aid of a ruler), the student can manipulate circles and arrows (with the help of guiding questions) to understand how everything comes together. I also like the idea of games. Mad-Libs is a favorite game in our household and has been a silly, easy, and gentle way to introduce younger children to the parts of speech.
Valerie
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hylabrook1
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Winston Grammar is another way of analyzing the functions and relationships among the words in a sentence. I completely agree; it's important to be able to analyze the sentence, but the format that analysis takes can be one of several. Clearly, different people "see" it using different methods.
Peace,
Nancy
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Rachel May
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How about grammar with legos? Too bad my kids aren't old enough.
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Rachel
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Tina P.
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Ooooooh, my kids are! Thanks for the link, Rachel May. I'm printing it now!
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Elizabeth
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MarilynW wrote:
Ooh - I am feeling radical this morning!!!Quote by Erasmus
"I have no patience with the the stupidity of the average teacher of grammar who wastes precious years in hammering rules into children's heads. For it is not by learning rules that we acquire the powers of speaking a language, but with daily intercourse with those accustomed to express themselves with exactness and refinement and by copious reading of the best authors."
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I agree with Erasmus.But...before your daughter jumps for joy, I want to point out that he says we shouldn't waste precious years hammering rules into children's heads.
I think a season of grammar every year is plenty and I don't think hammering is necessary. In the beginning, it's simply reviewing rules of capitalization and punctuation. Later, it's usage and sentence refinement.
I do think a child has to write only on days he eats and I think that that writing--which can take on so very many forms--should frequently be reviewed with a parent or sibling who knows proper usage. And it should be lovingly corrected. We do this all the time here.
I'm a HUGE proponent of speaking correctly always and using full, rich language when speaking to even the littlest of children. Children who hear quality spoken language rarely are troubled by written expression.
There is a place for learning how to pull apart a sentence and to reconstruct it to make your meaning clearer. Personally, I think it comes long after a child is comfortable expressing himself in writing.
Finally, a well read child tends to reflect that heritage in his or her own writing. Read to a child; insist a child read only on days he writes (which are only days he eats ); and speak well in your homes.
It's all grammar. It all counts.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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vmalott wrote:
Jenn,
I was kind of the opposite, in that I learned more about english grammar while studying a foreign language than I did in english class. I studied Spanish throughout high school, then moved onto German in college. Diagramming was reserved for 7th grade, and most of us just did what we needed to pass. Did it stick? No. I'm not saying that's the case for everyone who has to diagram sentences. Personally, I think it is one of those activities that works with certain types of thinkers.
That said, I do agree that grammar needs to be approached in some way. Does it need to be diagramming? Not necessarily. I'm really intrigued by the Montessori sentence/reading analysis materials, which seem to provide a hands-on way of learning the functions of words within sentences. Instead of doing pencil and paper diagramming (with the aid of a ruler), the student can manipulate circles and arrows (with the help of guiding questions) to understand how everything comes together. I also like the idea of games. Mad-Libs is a favorite game in our household and has been a silly, easy, and gentle way to introduce younger children to the parts of speech. |
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Valerie, I was thinking over your post. I think younger ages the hands-on manipulation of sentences is great. I learned to diagram younger than 7th grade, and we also did visual break-down of sentences in 4th and 5th grade with colored pencils -- cirles, underlining and squares. I know it's an individual thing, and I was trying to figure out WHY did it appeal to me so much. I think it's because I'm very visual, but kinesthetic (does that include writing?) is also big for me. But for me the visual is almost tangible, and even though diagramming is still written, it was "manipulating" and very satisfying. Taking apart the sentences and placing them like pieces in a puzzle, extremely manipulative in my mind. Especially on a blackboard.
But then, when I tried to remember lessons from school, I would visualize the blackboard or the actual page of my notes or the textbook and have that visual memory.
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Tina P.
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Elizabeth:
My children do the *least* writing possible for narrations and other required writing. This pains me greatly since I love writing. I think that my children need a handle on how to *use* the language, in what position words are set so that they make the most sense, before they will become comfortable writing. When I see sentences that my son has written, I feel like I'm reading code. He often tries to get away with incomplete sentences. He doesn't understand the necessity of verbs. They're just words, anyway. He *has* to know the parts of speech and where they go before I can expect anything intelligible from him in writing.
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Elizabeth
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Tina,
It would be really helpful to know the ages of the children, then I've got some ideas.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MarilynW
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Elizabeth wrote:
I do think a child has to write only on days he eats and I think that that writing--which can take on so very many forms--should frequently be reviewed with a parent or sibling who knows proper usage. And it should be lovingly corrected. We do this all the time here.
It's all grammar. It all counts. |
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Elizabeth
This is one of the things I am feeling really guilty and miserable about. One of the unfortunate side effects of our more structured schedule this school year has been the near demise of writing and narration.
I am really struggling as to how to get back to it. My 10 year old dd who loves creative writing- really has had no time because of all the formal pieces (like book reports and paragraphs  ) that she has to do. At least she keep has her daily journal and she writes/emails her friends. She wants to do a blog - I just have to reseach the costs and how to's.
My 7 year old twin ds were not very comfortable with narrations last year. They are advanced readers and we read aloud a lot - but they are hardly doing any writing save the more "workbook style". However... the Christmas present they each made for their dad was a "Sports Notebook" - writing stories about all their favorite players. So I guess they will write when motivated.
I would appreciate any tips. I subscribe to Bravewriter - but am obviously not reading the daily tips.
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LLMom
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I think a season of grammar every year is plenty and I don't think hammering is necessary.
Elizabeth,
When you say a season of grammar every year, do you mean just a few months of grammar every year or just a few years out of all of their years at home and at what age do you mean.
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MacBeth
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I don't "teach" grammar...we speak correctly, and we do double check writing. However, my kids study German, which, like Latin, is an inflected language, which means one had better know what a noun is "doing" in a sentence.
FWIW, I believe that diagramming is fun for those who can do it easily, and fun for folks who probably don't need to do it at all (or just a little bit) to understand grammar. Same with grammar workbooks. I always enjoyed both because I knew all the answers . For those with kids struggling with grammar, these will be rather less enjoyable  .
The place to start grammar is at home, and the time is birth. If language is not spoken well at home, your kids will be at an immediate disadvantage when studying grammar, and the whole study will have to be more intensive and remedial.
Starting early, and knowing the grammar yourself is not a cure-all, though. One of my children struggles with writing. This child tends to write long, run-on sentences . But a good base in oral language is helping her immeasurably. She reads her own work aloud, making corrections as she reads. Because her spoken grammar is excellent, she can self-correct once she hears her errors.
This has been my experience. I know that all kids are different, but if one feels that her children "get it" without the drudgery of workbooks, she should feel free to follow her instincts and move on to something better.
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Tina P.
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MacBeth wrote:
The place to start grammar is at home, and the time is birth. If language is not spoken well at home, your kids will be at an immediate disadvantage when studying grammar, and the whole study will have to be more intensive and remedial.
Starting early, and knowing the grammar yourself is not a cure-all, though. One of my children struggles with writing. This child tends to write long, run-on sentences . But a good base in oral language is helping her immeasurably. She reads her own work aloud, making corrections as she reads. Because her spoken grammar is excellent, she can self-correct once she hears her errors. |
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I'm glad you qualified that first statement, MacBeth, because I feel we speak rather well in this house. I have a run-on girl (age 11) and a shorter-is-better-no-matter-the-sentence-structure boy (age 12). Whenever I ask them to read their work aloud, they get embarrassed. I've let them get away with *not* reading it aloud after a lot of jockeying to find private space (like *that's* possible in a household with 7 children!) to read it to me. Guess I ought to insist on it, eh?
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hylabrook1
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MacBeth -
Learning a declined language helped me so much to understand grammar. For a number of years my understanding of when to use "whom" was filtered through my deciding whether I would use "wem" if that sentence were in German. For some strange reason, I was never taught English grammar in (public) school (I graduated high school in 1972).
The *ear* for correct grammar develops at a very young age when it is generally heard at home (I won't claim that I *never* make errors of grammar). It is almost amusing to hear your four year old ask, "From whom did this come?"
As to hammering grammar, it is often done, to be sure, but is, imho, useless, because grammar only makes sense in its application. The reason to know grammar is to be able to recognize the meaning in complexly-written sentences or to express complex thoughts in your writing, not to *diagram sentences for fun and profit.*
I agree with what Elizabeth said about giving grammar in doses *for a season* and then moving on to use that knowledge to improve written (and oral) communication.
Peace,
Nancy
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MacBeth
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Tina P. wrote:
| Whenever I ask them to read their work aloud, they get embarrassed. I've let them get away with *not* reading it aloud after a lot of jockeying to find private space (like *that's* possible in a household with 7 children!) to read it to me. Guess I ought to insist on it, eh? |
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That's why I let her self-correct. It is embarrassing, especially in this house, where everyone is always listening to the others to try and "catch" a mistake. Perhaps I have created monsters.
The point here is to give them the advantage of "environmentally" good grammar as a base, rather than start from scratch and make the chore more difficult. If correct English is not the spoken language, learning grammar becomes a task akin to learning a foreign language from a text book.
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MacBeth
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hylabrook1 wrote:
*diagram sentences for fun and profit.*
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Nancy, this reminds me of a high school teacher of remedial students I once knew...he used to play "Grammar for Dollars" with his classes.
BTW, Maryliyn, I LOVE the opening quote! 
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Do we need to teach grammar?
