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asplendidtime
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Dear ladies,
This question I ask in all sincerity, I dont' want to hijack the other thread... I do not want to hurt or offend anyone, I do want to understand though...
My dh and I rented the first two HP movies, our children were very small, and we wanted to get an idea what HP was all about. I am Pro-Life as you all are, I am sure. I was so grieved when in the second movie, there was a plant (I can't remember the name, it was also on Pan's Labrynth) which looked like a baby. On the HP movie the "babies" were depicted like screaming, ugly babies, and the jist was that the plant had to be killed and used in a potion, for a greater good... This reminded me on infanticide. Am I wrong on this? I may not remember correctly. I saw this as a metaphor for abortion. And I was disturbed in the movies that the Good which HP and his friends tried to achieve was by any means necessary.
How should I see this? I also saw this plant on "Pan's Labrynth" (dh also rented this) I was bothered by what I perceived as Satanic imagery.
I too have heard the Radio Interviews on "Faith and Family", "The Abundant Life" read Michael D. O'Brien's book and articles. I don't understand at this point how to see the issue any differently but I would really like to understand others perspective. I don't want to be judgemental of others discernment, but after hearing the above programs, I feel mystified that a Catholic Mother would embrace this literature, as our stories form our worldview.
At the same time, I do understand that our children do need to live in the World, so learning to temper things like the lure of Magic is important. Simply forbidding this I don't feel is the answer. I do not want to start a debate, so if anyone would like to reprove me, please pm me. I am really happy, and would be relieved to hear what others think.
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asplendidtime
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The Mandrake. "In Herbology they grow plants that are used in the potions-the roots of the mandrake plant, for example, are small living babies who scream when they are uprooted for transplanting, and are grown for the purpose of being cut into pieces and boiled in a magical potion." Michael D. O'Brien, "Harry Potter and the Paganization of Children's Culture"
http://www.lifesite.net/features/harrypotter/obrienpotter.ht ml
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Elizabeth
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7smallones wrote:
Dear ladies,
This question I ask in all sincerity, I dont' want to hijack the other thread... I do not want to hurt or offend anyone, I do want to understand though...
My dh and I rented the first two HP movies, our children were very small, and we wanted to get an idea what HP was all about. I am Pro-Life as you all are, I am sure. I was so grieved when in the second movie, there was a plant (I can't remember the name, it was also on Pan's Labrynth) which looked like a baby. On the HP movie the "babies" were depicted like screaming, ugly babies, and the jist was that the plant had to be killed and used in a potion, for a greater good... This reminded me on infanticide. Am I wrong on this? I may not remember correctly. I saw this as a metaphor for abortion. And I was disturbed in the movies that the Good which HP and his friends tried to achieve was by any means necessary.
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Mandrake. That's the plant. MacBeth was the one who alerted me to this symbolism when the books were first printed and this was the single symbol that turned my eldest off the books entirely. Why that plant? Why that seemingly obvious message? He just couldn't get past that. And he's wanted nothing to do with any of the books or movies since. Guess you could call him a "one issue reader" . I don't have answers for you; just observations.
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Becky Parker
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Yes, I have to admit, this is one of the main issues that has kept them out of my house. My ds read about this part of the book and said he would never read them, so I have not even considered them further. I'm not sure if it's good or bad to exclude an entire set of books for one small part, but as was mentioned on the other thread, there are so many other good books to read out there!
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kingvozzo
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Here is the wikipedia entry on mandrakes. The plant has a long history of human symbolism, and the belief that the plant shrieked when pulled. There's even a quote from Romeo and Juliet (IV.iii ), "Shrieks like mandrakes' torn out of the earth."
Rowling certainly didn't create this imagery...but she definitely has brought it into the public consciousness.
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folklaur
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Hi,
Maybe I am totally naive, but I always assumed that it was the leaves that were being used in the HP stories.
However, she was playing on popular superstition around the plant that already existed. Josephus, a 1st Century Jewish historian, wrote about the "cry of the mandrake" and it being deadly to humans. Pictures dating back to the middle ages depict mandrake roots to look like people.
I would consider our family EXTREMELY pro-life, and I never felt threatened by the use of mandrakes in the HP stories, or saw it as a subtle abortion message.
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chicken lady
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Rebecca I am with you on every point. I want to compliment you on your humility and generosity in posing these questions. Your charity is very obvious. Thank you for your example 
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Kathryn UK
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Maybe I am being very dim, but I just don't get the issue here ...
(1) They are plants. They could no more be aborted than a lettuce.
(2) There is no suggestion of killing the plants as "babies". They are only useful once grown to maturity. The babies are being dug up to be repotted. How could that be a metaphor for abortion, even if they weren't plants?
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Mary Chris
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I don't want to give anything away and I try to stay away from discussions like this since I have a hard time expressing my thoughts...but....
I read something in book 7 and thought that it had a pro-life feeling to it. Maybe I can find it in my second reading of the book. I also really appreciated that the Weasley's are a family of 8.
But then I love wearing a Life is Good T-shirt because I think it has a pro-life message.
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Willa
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It's not infanticide, because the mandrakes grow up to be adults before they are used. At least, in the book -- I haven't seen the movie.
Mandrakes are a traditional fertility symbol and because they are roughly bipedal in shape there was ancient and medieval lore that they had human qualities -- for example, shrieking when they were pulled out from the ground. In medieval tradition, sometimes the shrieks killed people.
DH and I have noticed (and discussed with the kids) that Rowling uses a lot of bits and pieces folklore in her books and is sometimes a bit heavy-touched. She doesn't seem to have the subtlety of a Tolkien. Sometimes her rather irreverent sense of humor misguides her a bit, I think. IMO the mandrake bit is somewhat tasteless and silly (the adolescent mandrakes in the book start having parties when they reach their teenage years) but I really doubt if it's meant to be a plug for embryo research because the overall message in the books seems fairly pro-life and pro-large-family.
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EmilyC
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Quote:
Maybe I am being very dim, but I just don't get the issue here ...
(1) They are plants. They could no more be aborted than a lettuce.
(2) There is no suggestion of killing the plants as "babies". They are only useful once grown to maturity. The babies are being dug up to be repotted. How could that be a metaphor for abortion, even if they weren't plants? |
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Exactly what I was going to say. I remember before I'd read the book, hearing about this portion, and I was a bit concerned. Then I actually read the book, and couldn't figure out how they had come to their conclusion. I don't see how repotting plants can be anywhere near the same as aborting babies. The plants needed to be grown to maturity in order to be used for the potion, and they never said they had to kill the mandrakes, so I too figured they used the leaves.
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Cheryl
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7smallones wrote:
This reminded me on infanticide. Am I wrong on this? I may not remember correctly. I saw this as a metaphor for abortion. And I was disturbed in the movies that the Good which HP and his friends tried to achieve was by any means necessary.
How should I see this? I also saw this plant on "Pan's Labrynth" (dh also rented this) I was bothered by what I perceived as Satanic imagery. |
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I also saw the mandrakes as plants, but I would say to trust your gut. Why read or watch something that is disturbing to you?
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Cay Gibson
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WJFR wrote:
| Mandrakes are a traditional fertility symbol and because they are roughly bipedal in shape there was ancient and medieval lore that they had human qualities -- for example, shrieking when they were pulled out from the ground. In medieval tradition, sometimes the shrieks killed people. |
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Thank you, Willa. You saved me some research.
We had a lengthy discussion about this back in July 2005 at Literature Alive! and our friend Kathryn wrote this and, since she's already commented, I think this duplicates with a little extra: here:
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I don't see how this bit could be seen as an abortion allegory without stretching the point a long way. For starters, they are plants! Also they are being transplanted into larger pots to that they can grow better. When the plants are "adult" (ie. fully grown) they are harvested and used to reverse an evil spell. ~Kathryn
****
Dawn wrote:
| I have to say, I've never read so much into the movie or books. |
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Here is a take from Regina Doman on Amy Welborn's blog:
Okay, one more... where she writes: "For those concerned about the books, the best remedy is for them to read the books and examine the evidence for themselves. I thought the books were much more sinister until I actually read them. (emphasis mine) Now that I have read all the published books, I find that most of what Catholic critics have written about them is exaggerated and in some cases, misleading. Although O’Brien and others have claimed otherwise, I find many similarities between J.K. Rowling’s Harry Potter books and the Lord of the Rings by Catholic author J. R. R. Tolkien."
We are now reading #1 (the tamer one) and the 14-yr-old has seen all the movies and requested #7 book. I've made no secret that I haven't read the books but I've listened to lots of conversations about them and weighed in closely...neither to the left or to the right.
Personally, I gather that anyone can find similiarites (pro and con) in the books if they look hard enough.
And that is when it becomes what you make of it; by way you own the adventure, the journey, the experience, and, thus, the book.
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asplendidtime
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Cay,
I haven't had time to read through the whole article! But I want to really thankyou, this has helped me tremendously... I was hoping that someone could read through my awkward thoughts/words  and see that I wanted to really understand how others can appreciate the books.  Thankyou!
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I did find the ugly screaming baby mandrakes a bit disturbing, but didn't think that it was a reference to abortion.
It the 7th book there are several references to the value of life and children, regardless of the situation. When Lupin is upset that his wife is pregnant (for several reasons, but mostly because of the trouble going on and the ffact that he is a werewolf) Harry completely takes him to task and tells Lupin that family is the most important thing and that a father must stand by his wife and protect his children. Parents shouldn't leave their children unless there is no other choice.
I also like that there are no instances of unwed mothers, or of divorce in any of the books. Parents can and do die, but noone leaves their family.
Also I like the way she handles the attraction between Hermione and Ron, and Harry and Ginny. They are very modest. The most innocent of kisses is all that is ever shared. By the last book they are 17. In today's culture (and many poplular books featuring kids this age) kids are often engaged in marital acts at that age. In the last book, the characters make it clear that such things wouldn't happen.
Sublte JKR is not, but I feel the messages she is sending are mostly good and right.
LeeAnn
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Karen E.
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cactus mouse wrote:
I would consider our family EXTREMELY pro-life, and I never felt threatened by the use of mandrakes in the HP stories, or saw it as a subtle abortion message. |
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I agree -- there's really not a conflict.
But, Rebecca, you ask a good and valuable question. I can see why you're disturbed, based on what you've seen and read. I initially had the same concern, before I read the books. I would just like to add a different perspective, though in looking over what's just been posted, I see that mine is quite similar to Regina Doman's.
I've now read each and every book for myself, and although I dearly love Michael O'Brien, his take on the Potter books is the one view of his with which I disagree. Sometimes I read something he's written about Potter and say, "Huh? That's simply not the way it's actually portrayed in the book."
I also agree with Willa that the plants were a rather silly interlude in the book, (and agree with Nancy Brown, in her book, The Mystery of Harry Potter, that there's more body function humor than necessary, too) but I don't see it as a subversive pro-abortion statement.
I don't want to spoil the ending of the series for anyone who hasn't yet read them, but if you take the series as a whole, their message is so profoundly pro-life and pro-Christian that it's unbelievable.
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Barbara C.
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I believe that the Mandrakes were supposed to be a metaphor of sorts about growing up and a bit of foreshadowing. For instance, Professor Sprout mentions that she can tell that the Mandrakes are becoming adolescents because they are getting moody and secretive. This is basically what happens to Harry and his friends by book five.
They were also a basic plot device. Rowling had to have a reason why the petrified people couldn't be immediately fixed. Waiting for the mandrakes to grow gave her time to tell to tell the rest of the story without revealing the mystery of who was petrifying the people.
All of the books are extremely pro-family. Familial relationships are emphasized over and over again, even among Death Eaters. And the only character who is portrayed as having never had a living family connection is Voldemort. And we all saw how he turned out.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: HP and The Culture of Life--spoiler
