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Genevieve
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| Posted: Aug 23 2010 at 7:58pm | IP Logged
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I really enjoy Gombrich - We listened to it during our cross-country move. I also like what I read so far in CHOW when we borrowed it briefly from the library. However, I see the core text recommended by RC History and I wonder whether it would be better to have Catholic text as a spine. Or should I attempt to line up chapters for my son to read and compare? I still intend to have parallel supplementary readings. I want history to be simple and enjoyable.
I noticed, Jenn (Mackfam) that you used Gombrich for a spine for your 5th grader with no obvious Catholic supplement. Does that mean Gombrich is a more balanced book than most and I need not supplement?
Since I took no history, I won't know where to edit chapters if need be. Perhaps history is about perspective and I need to approach it that way - reading different author's viewpoints to reach our own?
This is a very scattered post and I appreciate it if you help me sort this out.
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Genevieve
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MaryM
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| Posted: Aug 27 2010 at 4:48am | IP Logged
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bumping...
Since Jen is probalby not seeing this thread this week, hopefully someone else has some thoughts.
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Mary M. in Denver
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ekbell
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I've been using Gombrich as a spine along with The Bible for Young Catholics, The Loyola Treasury of Saints and Heroes of God's Church for the last two years.
I also own the history texts recommended by RC History as well and I've used them for supplementation-but not precisely because they are Catholic texts.
The RC History core books are centered around the history the authors considered most relevant to young Catholics of English descent while Gombrich's book was centered on the history he considered most relevant as a Viennese citizen leading to significant differences in which parts of European history receive more attention. Since English history has had a great influence on Canada (We're Canadian) I feel that it's important to include the important events of English history.
[Gombrich had planned to add more chapters with British history to his revised edition but he died before he could write them (a synopsis of his plans is given in the foreword).]
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Aug 28 2010 at 8:11am | IP Logged
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I do find the Gombrich to be pretty balanced.
In terms of history, I'm not sure that a "Catholic" source necessarily equals "more balanced."
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Lindsay
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Genevieve
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ekbell wrote:
The RC History core books are centered around the history the authors considered most relevant to young Catholics of English descent while Gombrich's book was centered on the history he considered most relevant as a Viennese citizen leading to significant differences in which parts of European history receive more attention. Since English history has had a great influence on Canada (We're Canadian) I feel that it's important to include the important events of English history.
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I never thought of that way. What is relevant depends on the individual person & heritage. I am Asian so English history influenced us through colonization and establishment of parliament. Then there is my American husband. And we are Catholic. Our focus would be different if both of us were Asian or American etc.
So that leads to my next question - How do we decide what parts of history is more influential in our lives. Do I trace back our ancestry? How does a Viennese's historical focus differs from a British's?
I really am enjoying pondering these questions! Thanks!!!
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Genevieve
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Genevieve
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| Posted: Aug 28 2010 at 8:41am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I do find the Gombrich to be pretty balanced.
In terms of history, I'm not sure that a "Catholic" source necessarily equals "more balanced." |
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Then what makes history Catholic? In school, we never studied Catholic history. Is it reading history from the Catholic Church perspective? Is it about not ignoring the contribution of Catholics? What is the ultimate goal of learning history?
In researching, I found this quote at St George Books interesting..
The events of the world, war and politics, governments and nations, are generally taught with little, if any, reference to a meaning or purpose to life or human events. As Catholics we know that there truly is a Divine Planner who has a divine plan for human life. We know that the story of history has a definite beginning, middle and ultimate destiny and that our lives have a purpose and meaning which we can only begin to understand in this life.
It shifts the focus of history as just another story or even one that affects current events and thoughts. Perhaps the ultimate goal of history is to comfort and inspire us. To remind us that every life is sacred and every life has a purpose.
It definitely changes the way I approach our study.
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CrunchyMom
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I'm not saying that we don't approach history from a Catholic perspective as individuals. I just mean that a source that claims itself to be "Catholic" and written by a Catholic is not necessarily going to be a better, more balanced or unbiased source for history than a secular one written by a good sober historian.
Imo, part of the key (which you are already doing) is to use multiple sources. History by definition is entirely subjective.
I certainly try to avoid sources with an anti-Catholic bias, and I seriously weigh the opinions of respected historians and scholars who have a distinctively Catholic worldview (Christopher Dawson for instance).
I think that history teaches us about people and human nature. Dawson taught the interdependence of history and sociology. This is not always comforting or inspiring, though sometimes it is.
I'm not sure what exactly it means to "make history Catholic." I know for some people, that means a text published by a Catholic publisher, and to me, that is not the case. I can better think of examples of anti-Catholic bias, but there are also Catholic resources which, though well intentioned, can present history in a skewed fashion as well.
Genevieve wrote:
| I noticed, Jenn (Mackfam) that you used Gombrich for a spine for your 5th grader with no obvious Catholic supplement. Does that mean Gombrich is a more balanced book than most and I need not supplement? |
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I am not Jen nor do I have her priceless experience, but having read lots of her articles and posts about history curricula, I can tell you (with 99.9% certainty) that her spine is there to help organize all the supplemental materials she has! I can't FATHOM Jen ever telling anyone that they need not supplement  
Anyway, all I really meant to say in my first post is that if you like the Gombrich, I see no reason to assume that another text will necessarily be better simply because it is a "Catholic" textbook. Gombrich is well-written, engaging, and I have not seen or heard of any glaring biases.
If you want to supplement some British history since Gombrich is light on that, you might look at Our Island Story by HE Marshall.
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Lindsay
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JennGM
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Oh, Lindsay!  Couldn't summarize it better.
I was just going to embellish a bit more on explaining a "Catholic view of history" from the Dawson viewpoint:
Sitting Still with Christopher Dawson:
Quote:
...Dawson’s religious faith undergirded all his intellectual efforts. He believed that people are naturally religious and, hence, as a historian, concluded (with Lord Acton) that “religion is the key of history.” Yet Dawson also contended that the Christian faith makes the distinctive claim to be an essentially historical religion, one based on belief not just in the general direction of history by Providence, but in “the intervention by God in the life of mankind by direct action at certain definite points in time and place,” culminating in the Incarnation. This “central doctrine of the Christian faith” is hence “also the center of history,” a synergy that, according to Dawson, generated a unique vision of history:
The Christian view of history is not a secondary element derived by philosophical reflection from the study of history. It lies at the very heart of Christianity and forms an integral part of the Christian faith. Hence there is no Christian “philosophy of history” in the strict sense of the word. There is, instead, a Christian history and a Christian theology of history, and it is not too much to say that without them there would be no such thing as Christianity.3
The Christian, then, considers the sacred not just a force within history, but also the source of its significance. Dawson in particular found “a natural affinity and concordance between the spirit of Catholicism and the spirit of history”4 in his day, believing that “Catholicism differs from other forms of Christianity in representing this incarnational principle in a fuller, more concrete, and more organic sense,” due to its rejection of the twin temptations of idealism and liberalism that he was convinced modern Protestantism had succumbed to.5 |
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Christopher Dawson - Christ in History
GERALD J. RUSSELLO
The Vision of Christopher Dawson
ARACELI DUQUE
And how that applies to me is having my viewpoint in all that we're reading with this pivotal thought. Christ is at the heart of history.
Some of the Catholic texts usually include pivotal events or figures from the Catholic Church (saints, missionaries, world leaders). If I'm using a secular text and these are mentioned, this is where I would supplement. I form myself on the key events that have tended to be miscontrued or put in a negative light (Galileo, Crusades, "Dark" Ages, Inquisition, etc.) and check texts to see if they are put in the correct light.
But that is hard to always have to figure that out. I have an Out-of-print book that I highly recommend, to be able to pinpoint key events from the Catholic viewpoint. It goes up to Pius XII, and it is terribly useful. Don't be dissuaded by the title. There is no outline to it. It is thorough, well-written, well-organized, and over a thousand pages, but not necessary to read at a sitting.
An Outline History of The Church by Centuries (From St. Peter to Pius XII) by Joseph McSorley, B. Herder Book Co. I have the 9th Revised Edition, 1954.
Catholic history written by Warren Carroll, H.W. Crocker, Henri Daniel-Rops would also be helpful for formation. It seems so much of teaching our children means constant learning and formation for the parents.
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Mackfam
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I know this is a really old thread...but I'm spending the day going through my inbox returning to threads I haven't had time to sit down with...and this is on my list!
I'm so sorry for taking months to get back to this question, Genevieve. Lindsay summed my thoughts up so well!
CrunchyMom wrote:
I'm not saying that we don't approach history from a Catholic perspective as individuals. I just mean that a source that claims itself to be "Catholic" and written by a Catholic is not necessarily going to be a better, more balanced or unbiased source for history than a secular one written by a good sober historian.
Imo, part of the key (which you are already doing) is to use multiple sources. History by definition is entirely subjective. |
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Exactly! And this is our approach to history; it is quite liberal and I choose books from across a spectrum of thoughts and authors with varying perspectives and expertise.
CrunchyMom wrote:
| I certainly try to avoid sources with an anti-Catholic bias, and I seriously weigh the opinions of respected historians and scholars who have a distinctively Catholic worldview (Christopher Dawson for instance). |
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Yep. Ditto this!
CrunchyMom wrote:
Genevieve wrote:
| I noticed, Jenn (Mackfam) that you used Gombrich for a spine for your 5th grader with no obvious Catholic supplement. Does that mean Gombrich is a more balanced book than most and I need not supplement? |
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I am not Jen nor do I have her priceless experience, but having read lots of her articles and posts about history curricula, I can tell you (with 99.9% certainty) that her spine is there to help organize all the supplemental materials she has! I can't FATHOM Jen ever telling anyone that they need not supplement |
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That's exactly what that book is used for. It's a reference point that presents a broad view, but it doesn't encompass more than 1% of our History reading - the majority of our history reading comes from living books. I don't find it necessary to use a spine like Gombrich every year either. Sometimes it can be helpful, but not necessary.
Now...your original question was whether to use Gombrich vs. RC History as core texts....and any insight is probably not helpful now since surely you've already made a decision and you're rolling with one or both...or neither.
I enjoy and have used many of the recommendations made by RC History. The Old Worlds Gifts to the New by Sister Mary Celeste is the core text recommended for RC History for this period and we do have this book and have read it before. It's good! I also enjoy Gombrich which my son is listening to on audio this year and find it fairly balanced, and really quite enjoyable as an audio book. Honestly, this year I went with an audio book because of my own time constraints and because I like to have my son narrate one thing from an auditory learning opportunity (like a read aloud). Since my time this year was limited because of other children/circumstances...I went with the audio book choice. 
ekbell wrote:
| The RC History core books are centered around the history the authors considered most relevant to young Catholics of English descent while Gombrich's book was centered on the history he considered most relevant as a Viennese citizen leading to significant differences in which parts of European history receive more attention. Since English history has had a great influence on Canada (We're Canadian) I feel that it's important to include the important events of English history. |
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That's very interesting, ekbell. I'm glad you posted as I didn't know about that perspective and it's quite interesting!!
SO.....how's your year going, Genevieve? Which book did you end up with? Either? Both? Neither?
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Jen Mackintosh
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Genevieve
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Jen,
Thanks for replying regardless of its time lapse. I adjust my plans each term so for Fall term, we didn't do any history *laughs* I wanted to concentrate on other CM practices and just went ahead with my half-baked plans. Now our term has come to an end and I feel comfortable to add history.
What I have come to realize is the wisdom of using a curriculum as a tool so during the past term, I focused on how we wanted to approach history and less on the actual books used.
Anyhow long story short, I'm using MA's history plans using This Country of Ours. I already had the book. However, after a while, I begin to appreciate a Catholic book to supplement. I also begin to understand that even an interesting overview needs to be supplemented by more in-depth books though I have little time to compile a list.
All these "discoveries" into what is working best for us is helping me fine-tune how I would approach world history in the future. We did listen to Gombrich on a cross-country move and I will use it then.
What can I say, I take a long time to pull the trigger. :)
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Genevieve
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Topic: CHOW/Gombrich vs RC History Core Texts
