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Ruth
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My husband and I have been reading Hold on to Your Kids and I don't know where to begin. My friend Robynn (Medieval Mama) has just finished reading it and says it's one of the most interesting parenting books she's ever read. It seems like there is so much to redo, I don't know where to begin. Has anyone else tried to reattach with an older child?
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Ruth
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MarilynW
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Ruth - I just took your advice and used my Borders gift card for this.
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Cay Gibson
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Ruth,
Just reading the description and reviews at Amazon and trusting Robynn and your judgement, I stuck it in my "basket".
I do hope you'll find a starting point and share some thoughts with us.
Where to begin? Perhaps have those older children read this book? 
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Cay Gibson
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teachingmyown
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I have it checked out from the library, but haven't found time to read. I guess I should make it a priority!
My teen mocked the book when he saw it saying no teen would look to his parents more than his peers. Obviously, I need to do some re-attaching. 
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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mama251ders
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I just put it on hold at the library. This seems very similar to the line of parenting books that my husband and I are reading right now. Thanks so much for the suggestion and I would love for the others who are reading it to post their thoughts and how they are implementing some of this stuff.
Blessings,
Betsie
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folklaur
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I read this book a year or so ago. To be honest, I am not a fan of "parenting" books in general, but this book was really, really good. I suggest it to many people, and even gave it to our family dr to read.
I would end up reading whole chapters to dh, because it was just so informative, and made so much sense.
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Barbara C.
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I have not read the book, but it kind of intrigues me. Just from reading the blurb, it seems to want to blame the whole problem on kids being over-scheduled with peer time before and after school. I'd be interested to read the book just to see if it addresses the fact that school itself is the root of transference from family to peers; of course, the over-scheduling just exacerbates it.
I have not read the book yet or what it suggests, and my kids are not old enough to become peer dependent (although I think my older daughter could have a propensity for it). But I was a teenager who was very independent. I realized that most of my peers were just as clueless as me, but I felt my parents were unwilling or unable to give me much valuable information. I think it would have made a big impact if they had encouraged me to cut back on extra-curricular activities and taken the time to spend more one-on-one time with me doing things that I enjoyed. It also would have been nice if they would have engaged me in more conversations about what was going on with me rather than waiting until I had a meltdown and they felt forced to do so.
I understand now that my parents were just reacting to how they were raised, both had very controlling mothers so they kind of took a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to parenting as long as the police or school wasn't bothering them. Of course, when the police were calling them about my very peer-dependent older sister, they didn't know what to do. At 40, my sister is still very peer dependent, she takes on the persona of what ever group she is hanging out with just like when she was a teenager. Thankfully her groups are less dangerous these days.
I think if I were in the situation I would start by taking a big interest in what my older kids are doing, maybe read the books that they are reading (whether for school or pleasure) and discuss them. And I would also schedule one-on-one fun time that involves interacting (movies or television don't count) at least every other week. And I would set aside ten to fifteen minutes every night just to check in with them before they went to bed. (As many people have observed, night time has a way of opening people up.) Of course, with a new baby, I realize that finding this time can be harder than it seems.
Like I said, I haven't read the book, so this is just my 2 cents-worth based on my own experiences of being detached from my parents.
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SallyT
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I notice that a lot of the reviews mention that the book reinforces their decisions to homeschool. Not having read the book, I'm nevertheless intrigued to see someone picking away at the received wisdom that what's good for kids is to get them away from home and out with other children from a young age.
I'm on my first teenager right now, and as things stand, I don't worry too much that she values her friendships -- that value doesn't seem out of proportion to her valuing her family relationships. She spends most of her time with us, enjoys talking to us, enjoys her younger siblings, etc. At the same time, I don't think it's wrong or dangerous, necessarily, for her to be branching out somewhat and having other relationships which are important to her. Of course, most of her friends are also homeschooled, and she sees them once a week at our high-school co-op and at various other homeschooling activities. I was amused and kind of heart-warmed yesterday, listening to the conversation at the end of English class:
I am SO hungry.
Well, it's Ash Wednesday. You're SUPPOSED to be hungry.
So, what are you giving up for Lent?
Man, Father was, like, SLAMMING the ashes on this morning (this was true -- both priests were ashing everyone with a vengeance).
And so on. Not longer afterwards, I picked up my daughter's best friend -- the 12-year-old brother of two of her older co-op friend-boys, funnily enough -- and he very enthusiastically shared with me that his Lenten plan was to give up sweets, go to daily Mass, and say a daily rosary on his own.
These kinds of peer relationships are invaluable, and they are the kind of relationships I think you'd want your child to grow into as he/she prepares to grow up and leave home. I guess what's notable about them is that all the players do have strong parent attachments themselves, and so their friendships reinforce, rather than eroding, each child's family relationship. I sit listening to the co-op kids all through lunch, when they don't realize I'm listening, and their conversation is miraculously free of the kind of "my parents are so stupid" stuff you run into in other contexts.
I do have friends who have "lost" their teenage children -- one friend's son has been in a residential mental-health treatment program -- and feel very grateful that as yet we have not had teenager problems. Of course, the teenager in question is only 14, and we have 3 more to go, so I won't presume anything! But with our current teenager, who was a VERY difficult younger child (spirited on acid, let's just say), what seems to work for our relationship is just to live together day to day, talk to each other, respect each other . . . some of the best time we spend together is in doing things like checking her Latin homework or reading aloud -- I just recently read The Four Loves aloud while she sat knitting and swearing she didn't understand a word (and then she wrote an essay on it, which revealed that she'd understood a lot more than she'd let on!).
Whoops, got to go pick up my after-care kid! Hope I haven't rambled on too incoherently.
Sally
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Marie
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My kids are no where near teenagers but I have read the book, and I have a friend who does classes based on his book - she says he's much better in person, the book can be a bit heavy to read. If you ever have a chance to see him, it would be worth it.
The beginning of the book, I found can be a bit of a downer. So true, and yet a bit depressing because the problems seemed almost to daunting to fix. Our culture has become so peer oriented, and many of us (me) were raised peer oriented. We don't necessarily realize that we are and don't recognize it as a problem. And he spends lots of time dicussing what is wrong. My friend who teaches for Dr. Neufeld recommends reading Part 4 first (the how to fix it part) and then to read the rest so you don't get too bogged down in the beginning.
What I ended up taking from the book was simply to put the relationship first. "connect before you direct" Connect deeply with your children, spend time with them, share with them and do what you can to maintain that relationship over the long term. I think that many of you do this. This is part of the reason that you homeschool. And since my kids are 2 and 1, I won't even attempt to give advice on teenagers 
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stefoodie
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here are links to previous discussions
and an excerpt
hth,
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marianne
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The book gave me a lot of food for thought. I really liked it and definitely recommend it.
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Pamin OZ
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Has anyone seen any links to his other writings? He had a really interesting slant on dealing with your kids and their negative emotions. Someone on another list a long time ago (but in this galaxy) used to post about him and it was very intriguing. I think it may have been called reality therapy or something similar.
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amyable
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Sounds interesting! Would love to hear more thoughts on it - I know I need some reattachment with my older two. Hey, are there books out there for an adult with attachment issues? 
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Ruth
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Marie wrote:
The beginning of the book, I found can be a bit of a downer. So true, and yet a bit depressing because the problems seemed almost to daunting to fix.
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That's excactly what my husband said.
Marie wrote:
My friend who teaches for Dr. Neufeld recommends reading Part 4 first (the how to fix it part) and then to read the rest so you don't get too bogged down in the beginning.
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I'm going to do that. I'm a very slow reader, and learner for that fact. Thanks for the advice.
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Ruth
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Lisbet
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I just ordered this. I listened to Elizabeth's talk on relationships, and it was SO good and encouraging. I am having a really hard time figuring out what attachment parenting means as the children get older. Especially my son. I know it sounds very selfish, but it's hard on me when he is so much more 'open' and pleasant when dad is around. I get alot of grunts and shoulder shrugs...ahhh...
Thanks for the recommendation.
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Cay Gibson
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I picked it up at my library yesterday and had two sit-down chances to read through it. Thank you again, Ruth, for bringing it up.
Garrett had basketball practice for two hours so I took the girls to the McD's playground. I nibbled on a fruit/walnut salad while reading. Then a friend asked me if I could cover his Adoration Hour last night.
There are tons of rabbit trail topics I could go with this and lots of quotes I could quote here but I'd probably infringe on copyright.
When I first opened the book I thought Bummer! print's too small. This is going to take some time. I read heltzer-skelter and jumped randomly through the book...that's the way I decide whether I want to settle down and date it. 
Let me just say, this book is totally awesome! 
A little background: I am the mother of, dear me, it use to be 3 teenagers. My oldest turned 20 in September so I'm back down to 2 teens.
While I'm still not an expert by any means, I do have the experience of raising these three teens (and the outcome) to give some feedback.
I find ages 14-16 the absolute hardest ages but, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you have to deal with the teen years with humor---a slice of lemon wedged in your cheek and saccharine dripping off your tongue. 
Everywhere I looked in this book supports what so many of us believe in and want for our children.
I'm sure some of you are curious what he says about hsing. Alot, actually...if you read between the lines of the book...but in worded mention there is only this part:
(pg. 237-238)
"Interestingly, home-schoolers are now the favored applicants of some big-name universities. According to Jon Reider, admissions official at Stanford University in CA, they are the desirable applicants because 'home-schoolers bring certain skills---motivation, curiosity, the capacity to be responsible for their education---that high schools don't induce very well.' In other words, preschooled kids may have the best head start, but home-schooled kids have the best finish, because in our educational system we have neglected the crucial role of attachment. Preschool is not the primary problem and home school is not the ultimate answer. The key factor is the dynamic of attachment. Subjecting children to experiences that make a child dependent on peers does not work. We need to ground children's experience of schooling in adult attachments."
Which reaffirms, I guess, why we haven't had major issues with our oldest dd who attends school. I have never doubted for one second the attachment we have as a family and as parents with our children. Kayleigh is held accountable for all her actions and answerable to us. In everything she does she knows that she must answer to us (her parents) and to God. She knows that we consider the opinion of her peers to be lagniappe and she knows that she has her grandparents and several aunts/uncles/cousins watching out for her well-being and happiness. Same goes for my other four children.
To me that's the right kind of pressure...knowing you are surrounded by caring family members who want the best for you and expect the best. Another for large family living.
Again, I'd love to post so many quotes from this book but I'd almost have to copy the whole thing.
It's scary to read this book and think of how children are being raised and sent out into the world. I saw this at McD's when I went to order our fruit/walnut salads...oh, and one cheeseburger because Chels had just had dance and was "starving". The young girl who took my order was sweet and kind and caring. Another worker walked around complaining about the cell phone (in his hand) and even cursed. One worker (on break) came to the counter and slouched against it while making cat calls to another worker. There was a general no-care attitude amongst the workers.
And that reminds me...when my oldest decided to enter high school he was told by a public school friend of his that he needed to chill out and not be so quick to please. He was basically told that he showed too much concern. That was considered "uncool".
I ran into his Spanish teacher at a party one evening and she told me that if she had a half her students who worked as hard and cared half as much as Corey, her job would be a piece of cake.
Children in school are literally being told not to care so much (by their peers).
My oldest son shared with me about starting this new semester at college. He ran into an old school friend from second grade (before we began hsing). He said his old friend was smoking a cigarette outside. They shook hands, said a few words, and Corey went on to class. When class began, his old friend came walking in late, sat down, then got up and left before classtime was over. Another student sitting on the side of him had a confrontation with the teacher and, in the middle of it, waved his hand in the air and said: "Forget it. I don't care."
This "no-care attitude" is all around us. It's scary. Pure scary.
I think that's where we need to focus our energies. Teaching our children to "care". That only comes from attachment living...attachment to people and feelings, not things and money.
The authors of this book address the problem that our society cares more about economy than culture. So true. Our society is attached to all the wrong things. Our priorities are warped and we are not happier, and certainly not richer.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Marie
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Your thoughts ring so true Cay. Thank you for sharing them.
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folklaur
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Cay Gibson wrote:
Again, I'd love to post so many quotes from this book but I'd almost have to copy the whole thing.
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I know what you mean. I would say to dh (or whoever was in earshot ), "Hey, listen to this..." and I would start reading a paragraph...then another....then another....there was just so much good information/insight. A lot of "a-ha!" moments from me - even going back and looking at myself growing up, and my own peer orientation.
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ann@home
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I was lucky enough to hear him speak and he was really motivating to me to really look and listen to my kids-really listen to them.
I have to remind myself to reread parts of it so stay focused on what's important-kids/family- and let the rest take care of itself.
It's a great book to own IMO
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Medieval Mama
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For my own benefit I had to make an outline to conceptualize what I think he's trying to teach me. I'm starting to get it. I think it boils down to treating each child just as I want my husband to treat me.
Perhaps the outline would spark more discussion, especially for those who haven't yet read the whole book. I, for one, would really enjoy and benefit from further discussion of this subject--not because my kids are peer oriented, but because I'm afraid our attachments have waned and need to be fortified before it's too late. The outline doesn't really address his points for peer oriented kids--just for those who we're trying to keep from going in that direction.
Outline of Main Operating Principles of "Hold On To Your Kids"
I. Preserve the Ties That Empower
A. Make the relationship the priority
1. The child is more important than what he does—unconditional love and acceptance is what he needs to feel good in order to be good
2. Attachment gives parents power
B. Parent with attachment in mind
1. Attachment comes first and is absolutely necessary for
2. Maturity—which a child is able to do ONLY when he has a rest from seeking the attachment
3. Socialization—can only happen safely after the appropriate level of maturity has been reached
C. Help your child keep you close, especially through his main mode of attaching
1. Through his senses—physical proximity: sight, sound, smell, and touch
2. Through sameness—identify with the child and take an interest in the his interests
3. Through belonging and loyalty—lay claim to the child and keep his confidences
4. Through significance—treat each child as though he is the most important thing in your life
5. Through feeling—sharing warm, loving, affectionate feelings
6. Through being known—sharing and accepting intimate thoughts, feelings, desires: secrets
D. Stay connected when physically apart
1. Pictures
2. Jewelry (locket with picture)
3. Notes
4. Phone calls
5. Make a gift of something that is yours
6. Make a gift of your scent on some object
7. Make the child familiar with our whereabouts by
giving them a “tour” of where you’ll be—visit the office, see the brochure of the resort, see the website, etc.
E. Cultivate an intimacy with the child that no one else can compete with
1. Draw the child out
a. Regular outings
b. Shared tasks
c. Reading together, or if not together, read the books they have read and enjoyed
d. Retreating to your own space, but welcoming “visits” from whichever child happens to knock at the door
F. Creating structures and imposing restrictions that safeguard the attachment
1. Structures like the family meal, game night, family outings, family Rosary will strengthen the attachment and mend any weaknesses in it (think of the attachment like a fence that keeps the kids in and intruders out—fences need to be mended and fortified)
2. Restrictions on socializing, e-mail, phone, TV and music (because if the bad example of peer orientation therein) minimize the competition for the child’s orientation
II. Discipline That Does Not Divide
A. Good discipline means training, bringing under control, imposing order on the child’s attachments without damaging our relationship with him, triggering crippling emotional defenses or fostering peer orientation; skillfully supporting nature’s built in process of "adapt and mature." The less children are in need of discipline, the more effective any method will be. The obverse is also true: the more a child is in need of discipline, the less effective the commonly taught discipline techniques will be. Work the attachment first!!!!!
B. Use the seven principles of natural discipline
1. Use connection, not separation, to bring a child into line
a. A child is most likely to misbehave when his attachment has been weakened
b. Separation further weakens the attachment, increasing anxiety and frustration, which leads to aggression, which leads to more displeasing behavior
c. Connection strengthens the attachment and elicits behavior that pleases the parent—the one he is attached to
2. When a problem arises, work the relationship, not the incident
a. Lessons are not learned when emotions are running high—remove the child from the situation gently and revisit the incident and the behavior later, when strong feelings have died down
b. Fortify the attachment not just before the storm, but during the storm, as well (lest rising waters wash away the levy), by acknowledging the frustration, empathizing with the child
3. When things aren’t working for the child, draw out the tears instead of trying to teach a lesson
a. Lessons are learned from adaptation (when futility sinks in), rather than from right thinking, accomplishing the task of discipline by bringing an end to a course of action that doesn’t work, enabling the child to accept limitations and restrictions, facilitating the letting-go of futile demands
i. Represent to the child a wall of futility by simply and firmly pointing out non-negotiable realities (“there isn’t enough,” “that’s all for today,” “he didn’t invite you”)
ii. Commiserate with the child by lovingly articulating his feelings, drawing out the tears which signify letting go and adaptation
4. Solicit good intentions instead of demanding good behavior
a. Prime the child’s desire to want to be good by collecting him, firing up the attachment mechanisms
b. Coax the child in the desired direction—“Do you think you could put the ladder away when you’re done using it?”
i. Ordering the child around arouses his counterwill (built into all of us as a safety against unlawful manipulators)
ii. Overactive counterwill can drive children right into the den of their peers, rather than into our loving arms
5. Draw out the mixed feelings instead of trying to stop impulsive behavior—which arises out of emotion/instinct: shame, fear, insecurity, jealousy, frustration, guilt, dread, anger, etc., and lives in all of us (maturity must be acquired before these impulses can be controlled, and that comes through adaptation)
a. Temper negative feelings with positive ones, aggression with affection, counterwill with attachment, invite conflicting elements to exist and communicate acceptance of what is within the child—drawing the child to us instead of pushing him away
b. Discuss the incident after feelings have subsided, the storm has passed and the sun is shining again
6. When dealing with an impulsive child, try scripting the desired behavior instead of demanding maturity
a. Collect the child
b. Provide cues for what to do and how to do it in ways he can follow (getting the child to act mature will not make him more mature, but it will keep him out of trouble until the underlying impediments to maturation can be addressed and their maturity catches up
7. When unable to change the child, try changing the child’s world (although overuse of this technique undermines the adaptation process)
a. The parent must be able to feel the futility of other disciplinary modes and to let go of what doesn’t work
b. Have insight about what factors in the child’s environment trigger the undesired behavior
c. Have some ability to change or control these adverse factors
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Topic: Hold on to Your Kids ???
