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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: June 19 2008 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
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Last I heard, in CA the first science course taken by 9th graders was Earth Science. Where I live now, its Physical Science. I'm wondering if the colleges even care, given its Bio, Chem, and Physics that are considered the college prep. courses anyway??? We muddled through physical sci. with my first, and we both *hated it*. Plus, it feels a bit redundant to me to take physical science in the 9th grade (which is 1/2 physics) and then do it again in the 12th grade? I'd really like to do MODG's Earth Sci. syllabus with my next child.
Thoughts, anyone? What is typical in your state? Is there some way to find out what most states do for 9th grade?
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 19 2008 at 9:34pm | IP Logged
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No one cares about earth science (except me, and we do it in 8th grade).
Bio, Chem, Physics is the typically required program, with a year of advanced science, or some other science (astro, marine bio, oceanography...).
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guitarnan
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| Posted: June 19 2008 at 9:43pm | IP Logged
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In MD, public school students have to take an exam in biology to graduate (along with English and math). We did Earth science in grade 9, bio this year, then we'll move on to chem and physics. I think 9th grade is a year in which you can pick any kind of science you like!
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MaryM
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| Posted: June 19 2008 at 11:12pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth, I care about Earth Science!
Physical Science is a common 9th grade science course in many places. In some Physical Science courses there is coverage of earth science as well as basic principles of physics and chemistry. Earth Science is still the "9th grade" science course offered in other places.
The requirements really do vary state to state. There isn't even a set number of science courses for each state, let alone a specific course of study that is uniform (can vary by school district within the state). In checking some statistics it looks like about half the states require 2 years of hs science and half require 3 years (a couple states require 4 and one had only 1 year). Most colleges require 2 years of science but then recommend 3 for admission. Some require more. Therefore a student can choose what science to take to meet those requirements based on what is offered in the particular school and their goals for career/college admission. Almost all hs students take Biology and Chemistry. If one is inclined toward math and science careers for college then those students should take Physics. Students who are less science inclined and don't specifically need advanced sciences could opt for Physical Science. If colleges specify wanting a "phyical science" either Physics or Physical Science will meet that requirement.
Books, interestingly when I googled "scope and sequence earth science" I found that your state's Department of Education does list Earth Science as the standard 9th grade course.
There is quite a bit of flexibility in the schools and as homeschoolers we can have that flexibilty as well based on the needs/interests/goals of our students.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 20 2008 at 12:18am | IP Logged
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MaryM wrote:
MacBeth, I care about Earth Science!
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Oh, I knew someone would call me on that one  !
But good points, Mary, especially about college requirements, which may end up being a more important issue than what high schools want. And colleges vary greatly on these requirements. And yes, as homeschoolers, we have some flexibility. But I have not seen any colleges which require earth science...not even for potential geology majors.
My high school never offered earth science, whereas Trip's won't let you get by without it. "Honors" students in the public schools here take it in eight grade. Physical science is taught (poorly) in 7th grade. 
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guitarnan
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| Posted: June 20 2008 at 5:42am | IP Logged
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MacBeth is right about wildly varying college requirements. When my son was in 8th grade I went through the entrance requirements of every college I thought he might be interested in attending (U of MD, UCLA, Naval Academy, IU, etc.) and wrote down all their entrance requirements. All schools wanted 3 years of science and definitely wanted biology. Most recommended bio, chem and physics. We figured he'd do 4 years of science (he likes science!) and so we picked earth science for his 9th grade subject.
Having said all that, our local school system offers a bewildering array of science courses. I think it's good to give students a choice, for sure, because it fosters an interest in science. If my daughter wants to study marine biology (a real possibility) in high school, I'll let her, because to me the most important thing is to keep students engaged in science - otherwise, when they need to vote on issues like the environment, stem cell research, etc., they won't know what those issues are about, nor will they know how to research them.
Great thread, by the way...I hope more people chime in. It's interesting to find out what different states and universities require.
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Bookswithtea
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Hmph...Well, this whole thing is just confusing to me. So far, I have zero children who show any interest or bent in the sciences or math. My plan was to do Earth Science for high school school credit, but in the 8th grade. Then MODG's natural history (I know its not standard, but I love this syllabus and believe its valuable). That still leaves room for biology, chemistry, and (Lord, help us) physics in the 10th-12th grade. I figure physics is optional, depending on the student's interest. I dunno...is this a dumb plan?
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folklaur
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The colleges my daughter looked into just wanted "two lab sciences" - and they "preferred" that she be in an "actual lab" as opposed to our kitchen. She did Chemistry & Geology.
She has never done biology (she begged not to) or physics.
I think most people do bio-chem-physics just because "that's the way it is done."
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MacBeth
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Books, if you do earth science for "high school credit" in eighth grade, make sure you list it on the high school transcript as 9th grade. It has been my (limited) experience that colleges won't look at anything labeled "8th grade" no matter how challenging. You could double up on science, at least for the purposes of the transcript, by adding the earth science grade to the transcript along with natural history. They go together well, anyway. The rest of the plan sounds good.
When you get to physics, you can read good books and play with toys, and call it done. 
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 20 2008 at 6:28pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
| The colleges my daughter looked into just wanted "two lab sciences" - and they "preferred" that she be in an "actual lab" as opposed to our kitchen. She did Chemistry & Geology. |
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So, did she do them in a lab (at a college, perhaps)? Both chem and geology labs can be intense, though geology could be done more easily in the field. Tell us more, Laura!!
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folklaur
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| Posted: June 20 2008 at 6:39pm | IP Logged
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She did Chemistry at the local high school. She loved it. As a matter of fact, she loves Chem so much that even though she is going for a degree in Video Production, she is taking Chemistry her first year at Benedictine, too.
She took Geology at the Community College (this also enabled us to show she could handle college level work, and, I think, validated the grades I was giving her on our "home made transcript.") We had to pay for it, but, it really wasn't any more expensive than lots of other classes we have had her attend over the years (it was just more $ all at once).
I had always thought we would go the Bio-Chem-Phy route in high school too. Because, as I said, that is just the way it is done, usually, and I thought that was the way it had to be done. But, I'm glad to find that we actually had options. (I really can't stress enough how much she DIDN'T want to take Biology.)
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ALmom
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Well here the high schools require 4 sciences - don't really care what they are, but choices at the public schools are somewhat limited at least as I recall.
Now, state Universities only require 2 - 3 sciences,depending on the major and you must have 2 lab sciences. They typically look for this in Biology and Chemistry and there were at least some of the colleges or Universities that specified these 2 sciences, especially if they only required two sciences, these were the two required. The Jr. Colleges require 4 sciences on the transcript no matter what.
We did our lab sciences on the kitchen table and no one questioned us. We did a really good job Biology wise with real dissection which all my children loved and lots of microscope work. We were given a nice dissecting kit from Taiwan. Our chemistry followed Apologia labs - pretty light but sufficient for the non-science kid. We still had a hard time getting them to work - seems the make-up of household items has been changed and much of these don't work well now. Our oldest did her chemistry pre 911 and pre meth worries. We had trouble getting refills to use our bunson burner for the chemistry as the de-natured alcohol is no longer sold.
My other child did a coop lab for Biology. Now we are doing Physical Science to try and give a broad background so Chemistry and/Physics won't overwhelm her. Chemistry will be her next science. Not sure how we'll do labs. For my science minded - I think duel enrollment with real labs is about the only way we'll be able to handle it. My 11 yo has already done everything and then some that my highschoolers have done.
Ok, I have the easiest time teaching Chemistry and Physics and Physical science. Around here, science rules and most of the kids are taking AP Chemistry and Physics, have several years of Calculus under their belt before graduating and going into science fields I've never heard of before (space related, microbiologys, or Biochemistry or becoming MDs of some variety - and most are going to Princeton or MIT or Penn State).
Our science program wouldn't compare - but I was working with children who were artsy and literature and boy was it hard for us to spark any kind of interest in science. Still for purposes of getting into college - no problem anywhere we wanted to go.
Janet
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guitarnan
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We did 22 labs for bio this year...some were online dissections (ds went through them, photo by photo, and made sketeches of organs, parts, etc. and I tested him on his drawings vs. the photos). Most were in-home activities (we tried 3 times to collect DNA from our cheek cells, onions, etc.!).
I expect to be this hands-on for chemistry, too - ds loves science but doesn't love math, so this may be his best exposure to chemistry, biology and physics.
We have an umbrella school that counts Carnegie units for high school, and their rule on lab science is 20 labs or 20 hours' worth of labs.
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: June 21 2008 at 12:12pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
Books, if you do earth science for "high school credit" in eighth grade, make sure you list it on the high school transcript as 9th grade. It has been my (limited) experience that colleges won't look at anything labeled "8th grade" no matter how challenging. You could double up on science, at least for the purposes of the transcript, by adding the earth science grade to the transcript along with natural history. They go together well, anyway. The rest of the plan sounds good.
When you get to physics, you can read good books and play with toys, and call it done. |
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Sigh...this is news to me. I had no idea. I've never heard that before. Isn't it common for advanced kids to take Alg. 1 in the 8th grade in the public schools? How do the colleges treat that?
As for physics, could you elaborate a bit on your plan? I know you have books on your web site listed for high school science, but what kinds of toys, and isn't there a ton of math included in physics?
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Carole N.
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We are going to take biology next year. I have the MODG syllabus that goes along with All Creatures Great and Small. I am in the process of trying to finish out the purchase of books. It recommends another text book Biology the Easy Way. Is this a good spine for the class?
I tried to teach this earlier, but my science is really lacking and we just sort of stopped in the second chapter. I went to more of a living books program, but now I have to start thinking about the science requirements for my ds. He will be a sophomore next year and we completed Natural History this year and loved it.
Recommendations anyone? Also what about Chemistry? I will be home this summer and want to purchase as many books as I can. I really like the living books approach, but I need to be sure that I prepare my ds for his GCSEs.
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MacBeth wrote:
| My high school never offered earth science, whereas Trip's won't let you get by without it. "Honors" students in the public schools here take it in eight grade. |
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MacBeth,
That's a shame that you missed out in high school. My ninth grade Earth Science class is the one science class that I remember A LOT from, though I think it had more to do with the teacher and his alternative methods than the subject matter. Still, it instilled a life-long love of earth science...so much so that I'm super excited about the opportunity to share it with my kids once they hit 9th grade.
Most of the local colleges in the greater Cincinnati area don't require it for high school and "suggest" biology and chemistry with an additional science credit as "College Prep". So, for us, that additional science credit will be earth science/geology!
Valerie
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Carole,
We used Biology the Easy Way - it's pretty straightforward but there's a lot of chemistry in it, there are no labs and all the vertebrates are lumped into one chapter. I liked their earth science book much better.
Also, you have to create your own tests.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 23 2008 at 2:08pm | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Sigh...this is news to me. I had no idea. I've never heard that before. Isn't it common for advanced kids to take Alg. 1 in the 8th grade in the public schools? How do the colleges treat that?
As for physics, could you elaborate a bit on your plan? I know you have books on your web site listed for high school science, but what kinds of toys, and isn't there a ton of math included in physics? |
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I think they assume that you have taken algebra, but, once again, it just goes to show how arbitrary it all is. If you have taken algebra in 8th grade, as far as I know, colleges (with some exceptions) still want to see three or 4 yeas of math for students who wish to pursue sciences.
That said, I have seen countless high school transcripts from Protestant sites which have "consumer math" and similar course names where I would expect to see geometry or trig.
As for physics, it can be studied in several ways. The typical high school course here is just a bunch of formulae, word problems, and demonstrations. In college, or advanced high school physics (AP-type) in high school, they expect at least a bit of calculus. We opted for two physics courses...one a basic physics with formulae, toys (ramps, pulleys, air hockey, etc.), and one college level class at the local cc. Like Laura said, a good grade there sort of validates the whole home made transcript thing.
In NY, the exam given at the end of the course has a study guide (Barron's publishes it), which can be used as a source for problem sets, if you decide to do any quantitative work. But...a very wise and quite renown scientist friend of ours says that it is way more important to learn the science and love it in high school than it is to drill and kill. The quantitative portion of the science can wait until college. Unless the student is planning to go to the military academies, or major in engineering, this should be enough. For students interested in the latter, or who show a keen interest beyond the qualitative, there are some hefty text books out there.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 23 2008 at 2:11pm | IP Logged
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vmalott wrote:
MacBeth,
That's a shame that you missed out in high school. My ninth grade Earth Science class is the one science class that I remember A LOT from, though I think it had more to do with the teacher and his alternative methods than the subject matter. Still, it instilled a life-long love of earth science...so much so that I'm super excited about the opportunity to share it with my kids once they hit 9th grade. |
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Aw...Valerie, thanks  . I really did want to take it, but it was a complicated situation, involving a move and a different set of honors class requirements.
But I made up for it in college, and in fact did my senior seminar in "Geological Thought." 
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MacBeth in NY
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MaryM
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| Posted: June 23 2008 at 2:45pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
| But I made up for it in college, and in fact did my senior seminar in "Geological Thought." |
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Geological Thought....hmmm  ....
So, does that mean you had "rocks in your head"?
MacBeth wrote:
Isn't it common for advanced kids to take Alg. 1 in the 8th grade in the public schools? How do the colleges treat that?
I think they assume that you have taken algebra, but, once again, it just goes to show how arbitrary it all is. |
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Yes, they are going to assume you've taken Algebra 1 since it would be a prerequisite to the other higher math courses. With the science (like Earth Science) it wouldn't be a prerequisite so they would not assume a student had taken it.
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Topic: high school science requirements...
