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amyable
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For the past few years, dh and I have been waffling back and forth about whether we should make do with the small house we own, or try to move. Also during that time, house prices skyrocketed.
Well, fast forward to today, and our current house has been officially paid off!  We are very blessed.
And yet, I still search Realtor.com on a semi-regular basis. I found a house about 1/2 hour from here and I have fallen in love. I long for a little more land, a little more house, and *safety*. In the past few months, there has been one mysterious murder of a young mom, a bank hold up, a knifepoint hold-up of a student at 7:30 AM a quarter of a mile away at the high school, and two helicopter serches of the woods behind our house! I just don't feel safe here anymore.
In order to get a slightly larger house with a little more land within a decent commuting distance to dh's work, we have to take on a large mortgage. We could afford it, but it would definitely be a stretch and we would be "house rich but cash poor". This doesn't get us a HUGE house or anything, just more than we have, in what we think is a safer area. Many of you who live in less expensive areas would probably gasp to hear how much $$$ we are talking about. 
OK, for the philosopical questions (it's about time, huh?  ).
We are trying to come at this from a generous, Catholic perspective. Is it wrong to spend a HUGE amount of money on a house to get one that fits your family and keeps them safe? Dh and I keep looking back at his grandparents, who raised 7 children in a 2 bedroom apartment in a city area. They almost all turned out well and there is even a priest and a nun in the bunch. But that was possibly the "best they could do" for their family. Is it OK to provide more for our family, going into debt to do so, when we could "survive" here but be happier in the day to day elsewhere? We would not be getting this larger house as a status symbol or anything remotely like that, it is solely to have more room inside and out for the peace and education of our own family.
Part of me thinks it's fine, and then I start thinking about the people all over the world who only have a hut to live in with their 6 children and I think I'm being totally ridiculous.  God didn't say "buy expensive gifts for your family" but "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven"!
Anyone willing to help me sort this out in my mind?
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lapazfarm
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You know, I think this is an excellent question and one I ponder often. Though we do not own our own home yet (hopefully tomorrow!) my husband is a builder and so we see new homes built on a daily basis. Currently dh is building an 8000 square foot log home for..get this... 2 people! And this is not an isolated case!
Now that sort of thing I would consider sinful. It is excessive, greedy, and an unnecessary waste of resources.
What you are talking about, however, is different and it is not at all clear that you "want too much." You are just trying to make a decent home for your family where you can be safe and comfortable. I think if you were not such a devout Catholic this question would not even come up, but as Catholics we always worry if we shouldn't be sacrificing more. But is the smaller home the right sacrifice? Perhaps the right sacrifice is to take on that mortgage? But this also leads to the sacrifice of dh having to perhaps spend more time and energy at work, rather than home. Also, the sacrifice of not having more flexibility in how you spend your money as it will largely go to your mortgage. I wonder how one knows for sure? What does your dh think?
Sorry I have not been more help, but I wonder about these things myself.
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JennGM
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Seems like there are several issues, Amy. I understand about the cost of living around this area...I know you're not talking mansions!
What a blessing to have paid off the mortgage...that is everyone's dream!
Here are some thoughts I had. In comparing with the past, Grandma's day raising children, there wasn't this much crime or problems in society. Places like inner cities where problems started to arise, families did leave...that's where we got the suburbs.  Things have changed. People lived outside, no A/C, no TV, friendly neighborhoods, porches--you don't have that now. You are in a crime area, not a place to be hanging outside. Plus, she didn't homeschool!
A place to be able to breathe easily and relax, without worrying if your child can play outside without worries...that is just a basic request and not over the top greedy. Your girls will pick up on your fears...and then carry it on, and stress will kill you all. 
Largeness is overrated...small or large, you still need to be organized, and you have to find time to clean, do the yard...and the larger your house the longer it takes. There are downsides!
If there was a way to take on a mortgage that wouldn't stress your family too much I would do it, but the house-rich thing can be hard. Would it be adding more stress to your budget crunching now?
Would it be okay to go into debt? What kind of debt...you mean a mortgage? Or constant monthly debt because you can't keep up the mortgage and life costs? The former, of course it's okay, the latter, no.
Just rambling thoughts.
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amyable
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JennGM wrote:
Would it be okay to go into debt? What kind of debt...you mean a mortgage? Or constant monthly debt because you can't keep up the mortgage and life costs? The former, of course it's okay, the latter, no.
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I just have one more second, but I wanted to add this to my "philosophical questions"...why IS it OK to have mortgage debt? Isn't that just debt that the current society has deemed OK...but has God deemed it OK? Why is it different than other debt?
(and yes Jenn, I meant mortgage debt...barring interfering circumstances we would never volunteer to take on debt over and above a house/cars...but are debating whether even THAT is OK to voluntarily take on...hence my questions above  )
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mrsgranola
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Amy, your questions are much like mine a couple years ago. I think you have to pray and discern every step of the way and just keep trying to hear what the Holy Spirit whispers to you. We did sell our home and build a new home but it was s LONG and arduous process that continues as we always are discerning how much is too much, how much is enough, etc.
I wish I had more time but I"ll pop back in when I can. Debt is not fun, for sure...
JoAnna in NC
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Willa
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Those are good questions, Amy. Another thing that is a consideration to me is: does the increased debt make a family vulnerable; tie the husband to a particular kind of job?
I wanted to ask though, from a philosophical standpoint: What is wrong with debt, in God's eyes? I haven't really seen anything in the Bible or Church teachings against it per se -- obviously "irresponsible" or frivolous debt is, well, irresponsible and frivolous  Usury was traditionally forbidden but that is a somewhat different matter -- or is it? There were some stories of debtors in the NT and the borrowing wasn't condemned, just the ruthless raking in of debts owed.
Obviously, in practical terms, it would be preferable not to owe anything. My family keeps generally debt free but we do have a mortgage on our house which we hope to be able to pay off soon. So I can imagine how you, after not having a mortgage, would be hesitant to incur one too. Still I think that Jenn is right that there are other kinds of stretches -- safety, husband's job circumstances -- that you are dealing with and those might be higher priority than the money issue.
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Willa
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Tina P.
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Hi Amy:
I don't want to discourage you from buying a larger house in a safer area. In fact, I hear UTAH has some nice large houses in nice neighborhoods. Hmmm ... there are even some for sale in MY neighborhood. Besides, we need more CATHOLICS here!
But trying to put things into perspective let me just add that any move incurs debt, whether the mortgage is large or not. We have moved several times with the military and whether we lived on base or off, we had to buy such things, for example, as new window treatments, shower heads, things that break during shipment, and all kinds of unexpected necessities that go to the dogs just when the previous owners move out ~ like paint, flooring, appliances, heat/air ...
Theresa: When we lived in Germany, we looked at a house that was bigger than the one we eventually rented. This house, which was my dream house, ~ I had so many plans for that place ~ rented to a man and his wife instead of us! We made a verbal agreement but hadn't signed any papers, therefore, we lost it. In Germany we found that renters are happier to rent to families with animals than they are to rent to families with children.
Wish I could be more uplifting for you. My brother lived in a downright nasty neighborhood for about 23 years. He and his wife (kids are all grown and gone) have finally got the farmland they dreamed of. I will pray for you that you can relocate while your kids are still young.
Are you quite sure your husband can't relocate to Utah?
God bless,
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stefoodie
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Hi, Amy, we've dealt with these questions over the years and having moved several times, we've come up with some answers too. I'm not sure they'll answer yours, but this has worked for us: we made a needs/wants chart, and used that in our quest for "the perfect house" for us.
Number one on our needs list was safety. Next was a reasonable driving distance to and from hubby's work. Third was the flow of the home -- with our homeschooling lifestyle this was a major.
We got #1 and #2. #3 is not perfect but we try to make it work.
The other wants -- 3rd car garage, flat driveway (for basketball), large lot (large is subjective of course, so our almost 1/2 ac I feel is still small as I'd really love at least a 2-acre farm), lighting on the street, sidewalk, etc. just happened to come with the house we found.
Then we had other wants that we just could not afford -- a larger kitchen, a finished basement, etc. so those will just have to come in time as we are able to afford them.
We also set a max. $ amount on the houses we were looking and didn't look at a single house that went past that $ amount. There were many temptations, but it would also have put us into greater debt than we were prepared for.
And we also thought of building a house -- but after reviewing all the options, it just wasn't going to work for us. We would have gotten #1, #2, and #3 on the needs list, but we wouldn't have gotten the large lot, and we would have incurred more debt.
And always, always, as I'm sure you already do, we put our choices before the Lord and asked Him to help us decide what was best for us. The great thing about it is that EVERY SINGLE MOVE we've made (and this is our 9th home in almost 17 years of marriage) He has always steered us right, it's almost funny the situations that we got ourselves into -- something always happens that leads us somewhere else, ALWAYS to a better place. Especially this last move when we made an offer for 2 different houses, and things just happened that both deals fell apart -- and we got the best house at the best price we could have found at the time. Our realtor was amazed, she kept saying, "Boy, God is really taking care of you!" She's seen it happen before as this is the second house we bought through her.
I think as Jenn and Willa have pointed out, our society is so different these days that safety needs to be high on the priority list. Even if that might mean incurring debt... at least at a reasonable level.
Praying for you.
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Tina P.
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amyable wrote:
Part of me thinks it's fine, and then I start thinking about the people all over the world who only have a hut to live in with their 6 children and I think I'm being totally ridiculous. God didn't say "buy expensive gifts for your family" but "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven"!
Anyone willing to help me sort this out in my mind? |
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Amy, I thought the same thing when I was complaining to neighbor about how little our rental house was (it was supposed to be 2600 square feet, but the basement flooded, which left us with 1300). She pointed to what looked like ~ I kid you not ~ an outhouse on her property and told me that her husband's parents lived there with their 9 children. Can you imagine how many shades of red I turned?
Ah ... lovely Catholic guilt! God knows that you need space and, more importantly, I think, safety. That's one thing about our neighborhood, I can go for a walk after dark and am not concerned for my safety. You know what else God knows? He knows how much you are processing all of this through your brain. He knows you are concerned for about how much you can support.
I agree with Jenn when she says, though far more elegantly than I am reiterating it, that no matter how big your house is you still have to be organized. I'm struggling with that now. This is another side-effect of just moving (even though it was six months ago ).
Amy, I'm praying for you that you make the decision that God wants you to make.
God bless,
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hylabrook1
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This is something I have struggled with and am still trying to work through. We lived for many years in an 1800 sq.ft. townhouse. Read that to mean that rooms opened directly into one another, as hallways were few to none. We have 6 children, 5 girls, one boy, so that creates dilemmas for room sharing, depending on size of bedrooms, etc. With all the hsing "stuff", we were totally jam-packed, with every under-bed and under-dresser being used to maximum advantage. For some reason, this didn't bother me - I tended to view it as a creative challenge.
But, I am not the only one in the family. DH is much more the introvert. He works at a mentally very demanding job and when he comes home he needs peace, space, and quiet. Granted, no one is likely to get much of those things living in a family with 6 children, but not having any place to *go* to be *out of the fray* was getting to him.
So, when the housing prices went up, giving us lots of equity in the townhouse, and the interest rates were low, he wanted to make the move to a bigger home. I fought this notion because it seemed self-indulgent. Then as I thought more and prayed about it, it came to me that he is the one working for an income and that just because we could *survive* in the smaller space didn't mean it was fair of me to impose that on dh, kwim?
Anyway, 3 years ago we moved to a house at least twice the square footage of our townhouse. Often enough I feel like this is too much luxury, but the real lesson for me has been to honor what dh wants in this matter.
I'm not saying that is the right decision for everyone -
God works with each of us on what He knows is our need to grow.
Praying for you as you make your decision.
Peace,
Nancy
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Christine
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Our rule is that we will only buy something that requires one income and leaves extra money for necessities. At times, I have questioned the extra money part because I have wanted a larger house with more land, but housing prices in the Seattle area tend to be high and we would have to move even farther from my husband's job in order to get what we want. Ultimately, I am not willing to sacrifice time with my husband for a larger house. Also, in the past year or so, I have known some families who have moved to get a bigger house and in doing so it has made the mom have to work part time. I am not willing to sacrifice time spent with my children for a larger house.
If you can move, have a bit of a security net (using your current house as a rental), and not sacrifice time with your husband and children, I recommend that you do so.
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Cheryl
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My dh and I discussed for years whether we should stay in our small house, or purchase a larger house or build a house. When it comes to making major decisions, I believe that if there is confusion (like if you're not sure what to do) you shouldn't do anything.
If both my dh and I agree that we should do something (without reservations) then we feel it is what we are supposed to do.
In the summer of 2005 we decided we wanted to build. We went through the process one step at a time. We did a lot of footwork not even knowing if the actual building was going to happen or not. We signed papers at the end of November and went through making of hundreds of decisions. In April we still hadn't sold our house and we were willing to accept letting go of the house we were building and all of the upcharges we would lose if our old house hadn't sold for enough money. It would have been hard but we believe that what's meant to be is meant to be. It turned out our house sold, we got a bank loan we could afford etc.
It was important for us to get as much financial information as possible, but there will always be unknowns.
I think in making this decision it could be helpful to know what your priorities are. Does your dh want to retire early? Are you saving for college? Do you want to pass money on to your dc when you die? Do you want to give more to charity now? Do you want to travel with your dc? Do you want more space?
Then keep praying and discussing it as long as you need to. If you decide to make a change, take it one step at a time, remembering that if it doesn't work out you can stay where you are. Only you and your dh know what is right for your family.
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Cheryl
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amyable
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Thank you everyone! Some great things to think about here. Thank you especially for the reminder that I need to be prayerful about every step. I think dh and I have been thinking about this for so long that we are ignoring the obvious "step" of taking things one step at a time! I just want to run away and be done with our house, lol.
For a little background, we live in a suburban area a few miles outside the city limits of an average sized city. (think "Pittsburg" not "Los Angeles"  ). We have .2 acres but we back to about 1/2 acre of trees (county owned) which is nice -- our view makes us feel like we have more land. In the summer we can convince ourselves we don't have backyard neighbors! Now in the winter with the leaves gone you can see the houses behind us. We have a "raised ranch", about 1200-1500 square feet (I forget which). Upstairs is the living/dining room combo and the kitchen, with 3 bedrooms down a short hall. Downstairs are two large rooms, one finished, one not (our storage/play/washer-dryer). No garage. Bedrooms are smallish. Closets are not big enough for the amount of children we have, and there is not enough other room for bigger dressers, etc.
Because of the openness of the upstairs and downstairs, I feel like I am always in the same room, with everyone on top of me. I feel for Nancy's dh, because I'm a lot like that. I need space and different places to be, inside or out. I also was hopeful that decluttering would "solve everything". It has helped, but we've reached the point where I don't WANT to give up much else. I want my kids to have some toys and books, after all.
JennGM wrote:
| Here are some thoughts I had. In comparing with the past, Grandma's day raising children, there wasn't this much crime or problems in society. |
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Thank you for bringing this up, Jenn. I hadn't thought of it that way, and it is very true. If I could send the girls out all over the neighborhood every day, I'm sure it would help. I don't think I could find that ANYWHERE around here though (you know about where I live).
WJFR wrote:
I wanted to ask though, from a philosophical standpoint: What is wrong with debt, in God's eyes? I haven't really seen anything in the Bible or Church teachings against it per se -- obviously "irresponsible" or frivolous debt is, well, irresponsible and frivolous |
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Willa, I really don't know! LOL We just feel like you can't serve two masters, and if we have to worry every day about paying off a large mortgage, we are thinking too much about money and not enough about God. When I'm in a good mood I feel like it is sinful to want more than we have, including housing, and that taking on a mortgage is wanting "more than we have."
Tina P. wrote:
I don't want to discourage you from buying a larger house in a safer area. In fact, I hear UTAH has some nice large houses in nice neighborhoods. Hmmm ... I will pray for you that you can relocate while your kids are still young.
Are you quite sure your husband can't relocate to Utah? |
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LOL Tina! I have wanted to move far away, but dh definitely does not want to give up his secure (for now) job, and our families would freak as they all live on the east coast.  Part of why we are thinking of moving is just what you said though - wanting to do it while the kids are still young. We want to be the central location that all the kids and their families come home to, which will hopefully mean a lot of people! But why would we want to have a large house ONLY after the kids are gone when we'd only need the space when they visit?? We want them to be able to enjoy some of it now.
I'm going to send this before I lose it, and try to come back with more thoughts.
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amyable
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Cheryl wrote:
My dh and I discussed for years whether we should stay in our small house, or purchase a larger house or build a house. When it comes to making major decisions, I believe that if there is confusion (like if you're not sure what to do) you shouldn't do anything.
If both my dh and I agree that we should do something (without reservations) then we feel it is what we are supposed to do.
...
I think in making this decision it could be helpful to know what your priorities are. Does your dh want to retire early? Are you saving for college? Do you want to pass money on to your dc when you die? Do you want to give more to charity now? Do you want to travel with your dc? Do you want more space?
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I think this tends to be where we get into problems - dh and I are SO different. He wants one thing, I want another. And then we flip flop! I think other than safety, there are just as many benefits as problems with moving, so we end up at a standstill (for 5 years, lol).
Like Stef also mentioned (which is in a post I lost, lol) listing priorities seems to be the way to go. I can't argue if I've agreed that college saving comes before a garage or something like that. My dh will LOVE to sit down and get it all in order - he is a logical thinking engineer and just lives for this stuff...*however* he really does just want to make me happy. When he comes home after I've been stressed from literally bumping into everyone in the same small room all day long every day (for 9 years lol) he wants to make it better.
But then again, will having a bigger house really make the girls get OFF me? Is there no hope? (I'm laughing here, but in reality I'm literally crying thinking about this)
Did those of you who moved find that it solved some of the feeling that you were claustrophobic with too many people around you? Am I getting into sin areas here too? Me just wanting *my space* instead of dying to self??
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Amy
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Lisbet
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Amy, we are struggling with many of the same issues here. We definetly plan on moving, whenever our house sells, but what we 'need' in a new house, well, that's hard to decide. Secular society would expect us to have a few thousand square foot house with 6 bedrooms and 3 baths. We've been making do quite well in our 1500 sq. ft. house with 3 bedrooms and 1.5 baths, but, well, we are, um, cozy. Then to top it all off, we have very rowdy active boys and a postage stamp yard and a neighborhood that thinks we are abusing our children simply by having so many of them.
All of these are good reasons to move, but, just what exactly do we need????
I seemed to have responded with questions! Sorry. Just know that I feel your struggle.
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Tina P.
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Lisbet wrote:
| a neighborhood that thinks we are abusing our children simply by having so many of them. |
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I'm sorry, that was just too cute. That's one of the bonuses of living in Utah. People think large families are the norm here.
God bless,
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
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Cheryl
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amyable wrote:
| But then again, will having a bigger house really make the girls get OFF me? |
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The answer is no. At the ages my dc are, they usually want to be near me. I imagine this won't always be the case.
I did notice when we took out all the Christmas boxes this year, it was nice to not have the claustrophobic feelings I used to have in our old house. We came from a small raised ranch.
It's also easier to hide here. I hear my dc saying, "Mommy....where are you?" The room where the computer is will be the first place they look.
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Cheryl
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Natalia
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Amy,
We are in the same situation you are in. We have 1500 sq with 3 brs and only 1 bath. The one bath part is the WORST. I only have 3 dc and the chance of having more dc is getting slimmer. Technically we can survive with only one bathroom. I could say that living in such close quarters makes for a growth in holiness because there are lots of opportunities to practice charity, forgiveness, self-donation, etc. But I ask myself is it wrong for me to want more space, a prettier house, a more comfortable one? I think our wants are legitimate. How many time does the Lord give us things that we don't need as gifts just because He loves us? I think the problem is when there is an inordinate attachment to our dreams and hopes. When we are so centered in them that we can't see His plan for us. I can become so attached to the idea of having a different house that I can fall into a whole array of sinful attitudes:envy, discontentment, despair, anger. I have heard myself some times using our small house as an excuse:"if we had a better house I would be more hospitable" or how can I be organized if I have no space?" etc.
I guess what I am trying to say is that needs and wants are helpful categories but I do think that our wants are valid. I think we get in trouble when we are too attached to our wants.
Natalia
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MarilynW
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| Posted: Nov 28 2006 at 5:30pm | IP Logged
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This is a problem I have struggled with for a while now. I really like the previous posts - especially the ones about being on the same page as your husband. My husband has never wanted to move because he works 20 minutes away and gets to have breakfast and dinner with us and he is actively involved in coaching the kids teams etc. And having him so close is priceless. Our house is adequate for us - and I have had to pray about what I WANT v what I NEED. We live in a very expensive area and so we would have to move miles out to afford a similar or bigger house. Our neighborhood is safe and one that is desirable to buyers - so I have no excuses on this front. My reasons for moving have been wanting a bigger kitchen, a bigger house in general, a garage rather than carport and a better setup for efficiency. Also a larger yard - though for this area 0.25 acre is good. I am very organized and declutter often - but sometimes I just get so tired of putting things in Sterilite boxes and trying to find space for everything and everyone. We do have 4 bedrooms, a mudroom/laundry room and a finished basement - all of which are blessings.
I have always made plans for my dream house - and maybe one day will get close to it. We pray for guidance and things that have helped me accept the present are:
- We do not want to put ourselves under excessive financial stress - so destructive to life and marriage and everything - we already have a sizeable mortgage and definitely do not want to increase it.
- moving house is so stressful - so it has to be the right time for us to do
- my motto is "faithful with small things" - so we have made improvements to make our house kid-friendly, easy to clean, decluttered and as elegant as possible.eg. laminate flooring where possible, ceramic tile in bathrooms, leather furniture. I try to have a place for everything, hooks, baskets, bins etc. No clutter allowed!! The kids have daily chores to keep the house in a clear and fairly clean state at all times.
- one thing I did which helped me to be content with what I have - I wrote a sales advertisement for my house - and when I read it and gave it to others - it made our seem quite palatial!!
- also - we visited family in England this year - and the houses really were so small - made me feel like I had quite a big house really.
I still hope to move someday - but I content myself with the Mother Teresa quote in my kitchen (paraphrased) - "whether you live in a palace or a hovel you are where God wants you to be right now".
Sorry this is so long.
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amyable
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| Posted: Nov 29 2006 at 4:10pm | IP Logged
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Wow, a lot has happened since I first posted - is it possible it was only yesterday morning?
Last night my dh came home and said he was given an offer for another position in his company! Probably a promotion, with more advancement potential than where he is now. But he tells me it is also a position that SIX different people have filled in the last 10 years. If he takes the position it may up our income but also up our stress most likely. While it may seem like more money would be great to get into a bigger house, with the flux of that position I'm not sure if either of us are willing to put all our eggs into the promotion basket and "buy big" as far as a house goes. Plus I'm not sure if I want to move to a whole new neighborhood just as my dh is undergoing a lot of stress at work.
Today I got a chance to drive past the one house that started all this serious thinking (we have been "semi-seriously thinking" about moving for years). A house I had seen online and LOVED from it's pictures. I'm not sure how they made it look so nice - I wouldn't have thought it was the same house except for the address!
Third, I got a Christmas card from my sponsored child in India. Remember what I said about third world people living in huts? Well, she does! And it brought it home to me that I am so tremendously blessed, even if I don't feel very safe all the time.
So I'm not sure where this leaves us! I *think* we will still move along as if we want to move...fixing up a few things around here (a few?? ) and searching the sale ads...then trusting if it is going to happen, God will direct us.
I'm still open to hearing your stories! I'm not convinced yet that buying a large house in an expensive (read: safe!) neighborhood is the righteous/moral thing to do. Sooooo much of this area is just one step down from where I feel comfortable safety wise, but those are the affordable houses.
__________________
Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Philosophical new house/moving questions
