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Anonymous1
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 2:12pm | IP Logged
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I'm not sure if this is the right forum for my post--if it's not, will a moderator please move it to the right place? And if it's too long, just delete it--I'll understand.
I am struggling, and have been for some time now, with a number of things that have impacted my faith, and my relationships with other Catholics. I'm wondering if someone here could offer any counsel?
My husband and I are both cradle Catholics. After we were married, we were anxious to start a family. I miscarried our first child at almost 12 weeks--had to have a D & C. I lost our next two babies almost immediately after discovering I was pregnant with them. We went to seek genetic counseling, and discovered I have a chromosomal translocation that was/is the cause of our losses. Most women produce one type of egg with 23 chromosomes. I can produce 6 different types of eggs. Our odds are 1 in 3 that a pregnancy will result in a baby that can survive. (Our risk is Trisomy 13)
We do have 3 miracle babies--they are now 9, 5, and 3. We have 9 others in heaven--most were lost by week 12, but this month last year we lost our baby Jack at 19 1/2 weeks-- I had to have a D & E. It was a devastating loss, made even more difficult because I had experienced severe HG during the first 16 weeks of the pregnancy, and was barely out of bed and available to my family until those last 3 weeks.
I must also add that during the 3 1/2 years since my youngest was born, we not only lost Jack, but I lost both my parents, and two of the other miscarriages. These have been some very difficult times. Thank God for antidepressants.....or I'd still be under a bed somewhere.
Okay, I promise I'm getting to the point--if you've made it this far.
I did belong to a Catholic homeschooling group that is/was made up of very devout/orthodox families. They were a blessing to me in very difficult times. However, after the loss of Jack, I had some very painful experiences with a member who continually said very hurtful things in my presence (I'm sure unintentionally, but after the 3rd time, it didn't matter). Kick in the gut type things--I promise, after 8 other miscarriages, I had heard everything else & learned to write it off.
In order to save myself further heartache, I left that group and hunkered down with a grief counselor to deal with all we've lost. It was a wonderful experience, and I thank God for that process. I had sought counsel from a Deacon immediately after we lost Jack, but his advice didn't seem quite right to me--he had asked my husband and I what we planned to do about keeping from becoming pregnant again. I expressed that while I certainly was not ready to become pregnant anytime soon, I was not ready to write off the possibility of it ever happening again. He felt that the Bible stated "be fruitful and multiply" and we "had certainly done our best," but that he didn't think God was asking us to continue to experience this type of heartache--given our genetic history, etc., etc.
We had been using NFP--one month was literally never like another. Our NFP counselor wanted to send our chart to Mr. NFP (the big doctor) because in 20 some odd years of teaching NFP, she had never seen a chart like ours. In the first 6 months, we had 7, yes SEVEN, "safe" days. Needless to say, my husband wasn't really thrilled with the system. This was not something he was willing to go back to. And I, being Fertile Myrtle, can get pregnant just folding his pajamas.
We had to make a decision about what to do, and it's not something I am thrilled about, but I won't get into that. (I will say that while I do love the idea of having another baby IN THE FUTURE, right now I am very content with the ages & stages of our kids at present!) But it does finally get to my point.
What are Catholics to do when faced with a situation like ours? I have done search after search on the internet looking for a Catholic group that deals with THIS type of infertility, to no avail. There seems to be no option for us at all--NFP did NOT work for us--I mean, we were able to avoid pregnancy until Jack (who was conceived on a "safe" day)--because there were only SEVEN opportunities in 6 months for any type of relations. But, as Catholics, we are given no other choices. Nine miscarriages, and the loss of my parents, is about all the grieving I can do. I still have many years of fertility left--what are genetically challenged Catholics to do?
We're either outside the Church's teaching, in order to protect our mental health and have ANY sense of normalcy for ourselves, our bodies, and for the lives of the little ones He's already blessed us with. Or we're within the teachings of the Church, and petrified of being pregnant, wracked with grief after the loss, and my husband is terrified of getting me pregnant (but definitely has to have the "opportunity.")
This situation has left me at great odds with others who seem to gloss over the topic--I know a great many of you have gotten great comfort and support from it, but Kimberly Hahn's book speaks NOTHING to this topic. And it does seem to gloss over those women with life-threatening situations by mentioning others who took risks, but everyone turned out okay. Please believe me, I'm not being glib about that--I know there are many--even here!--who, thank God!, came thru situations miraculously. But there are also many who didn't, and there are motherless children now, and I don't think that Kimberly's book gave enough credence to those with situations like my dear friend's, who developed a blood clot, and barely survived and was told NEVER to risk another pregnancy--or mine--where a pregnancy gone wrong could be the last I can endure.
I just tire of the "if I was just trusting enough" talk, because, doggone it, I've trusted a LOT. I'm tired of being broken hearted, and then given no options but to be outside my faith to remain sane. I'm tired of people thinking that you're not open to life if you don't have more than 3 children, or saying that I "only" have a certain number. And I'm tired of there being NO support for those of us who would give anything in the world to have the 9 other babies back, but there's nothing. And it's very difficult to be around families that make you feel that you're just "not quite Catholic enough" anymore. How much suffering is enough? 
So, does anyone have any experience with anything like this? Any advice on where to turn? Any reading material?
I'm so sorry that this is so long. I've gone back & tried to shorten it, perhaps I should just delete it. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Or given way too much information. I'm just struggling and looking for the right way. Thanks for reading if you got this far.
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 2:40pm | IP Logged
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First, our hearfelt sympathy for your many, many losses.
I cannot begin to imagine your suffering. Please ask Jack and your other children to intercede for you in finding the answers and peace you seem to be desperately seeking. There may be no easy answer in your situation - lots of heroic sacrifice to remain faithful.
That being said, you did not mention which form of NFP. There are many different varieties. Sometimes where one offers no help, another will. I do not know which NFP expert you consulted but there are different doctors consulting with the different forms - so again where one was not helpful, perhaps another will be. Look to a different method of NFP that might be more helpful to at least try to find some answers. Talk to your husband and enlist his support in the search for answers.
I wish I could offer you more - but I will be praying for you.
Janet
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stacykay
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 2:58pm | IP Logged
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I wish I could remember who told about this, but someone I talked with, recently, used an ?ovulator? tester all of the time. I think it was pricey-?maybe $250?, but she was also using it to avoid fertile days due to some problem- which I cannot recall. Maybe you could check into that?
I cannot imagine the pain you have gone through, and still are.
I will pray for you!!!!!!
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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Taffy
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 3:16pm | IP Logged
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I have no words of wisdom to offer you - only my deepest and most heartfelt sympathies and prayers that you will find the solutions you seek soon.
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Susan
Mom to 5 on earth and 1 in heaven
Susan's Soliloquy
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 3:19pm | IP Logged
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I cannot offer any help either, unfortunately. I wish I could. I know that ten years ago, after two miscarriages I was heartbroken and dh and I went to a priest who gave us some terrible advice, similar to what you recieved. Unfortunately we are still paying the price for that advice.
We ended up accepting that our call to be open to life now had to be in the form of adoption, as other avenues are now closed to us. But I still mourn our loss of fertility and yearn for the babies we will never have.
As I said, I wish I knew of some answer for you. I don't, but just offer that, although our stories are quite different, there are those of us who understand your pain, loss, and suffering due to your yearning to be true to your faith. It is an enormous cross that you bear. My heart goes out to you. As do my prayers.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 3:24pm | IP Logged
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First of all I want to tell you I am so very sorry for your losses - every single one of them. While I know it is not always consolation, I am sure there is joy is the thought that your precious babies are in our loving Father's care.
Secondly I want to tell you I am sorry for those who have hurt you by their comments. Intentional or not the pain is still real and I am sorry it has been added to your already heavy burden.
Janet's advice is good and I would encourage you to look into other methods of NFP. Perhaps another method or teacher can give you insight that others haven't.
Your situation is painful and difficult and the Church's answer while clear is not always easy to hear and I am sure even harder to live.
Simply put if you absolutely cannot risk becoming pregnant again, your only option is to abstain from relations indefinitely.
I regret even having to write that because I am not in your situation and I can only imagine the diffiulty of living with such an answer. However, I would be completely failing to love you as a sister in Christ if I did not tell you the truth.
I will tell you this; God does not expect us to live His way without giving us the grace to do so. And while that grace doesn't always make it easy it does make it possible.
I don't know who you are but God does and I promise to keep you and your dh in my prayers continually.
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 3:24pm | IP Logged
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I am so sorry for your losses and the pain you are going through. I have not lost any babies or gone through any of the devastating pain that you have, so I don't have much to offer other than prayers.
I am also sorry for pain that others have caused you intentionally or not. I have a number of friends who "only" have a couple of kids, because of miscarriages and similar problems, and feel the same pain of being scrutinized by other Catholics who assume someone with fewer children must be contracepting. Your story is a strong reminder of our calling as Catholics to support each other, not to judge. I am sorry you haven't received that support.
I will pray for your family. I will pray that you find guidance and support and healing.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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alicegunther
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 5:32pm | IP Logged
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My prayers are with you and your husband and family.
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Love, Alice
mother of seven!
      
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Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
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Leonie
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| Posted: June 23 2006 at 5:33pm | IP Logged
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I think prayer is the key. Really.
I have several genetic health problems and have had many miscarriages. I remember a well known Catholic speaker once saying, upon meeting me, - "Why do you have gaps between your dc? We have 7, too, but no gaps. We beat you!" As though this was holier. He and his wife have more dc now and his insensitivity to those of us for whom pregnancy is difficult , and for whom miscarriage is common, still amazes me.
Prayer has helped me.
Prayer can help with the grieving but also with the physical realm. Nothing is impossible with God. Sounds glib but I am not meaning to be. 
And pleae check out other sources of NFP.
Is there a priest you trust, with whom you can discuss your situation further?
I, too, find it difficult when others gloss over the situation - I know many cases that are hard to gloss over. That said, none of us can predict the future and what God has in store, so do not despair.
I went through a faith crisis a few years back, and vowed not to attend Catholic homeschool groups for awhile, for my peace of mind and for my faith. Not the best solution but I found more welcoming in inclusive groups. And with God.
Time has been a big healer here. I pray for healing for you and wisdom for your decisions .
I am hesitant to send as I worry this sounds unfavourable - but I'll hit post anyway. With prayer.
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Dawnie
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| Posted: June 23 2006 at 6:05pm | IP Logged
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I wanted to add to the suggestion that you look into different methods of NFP. In my diocese, there are 4 different methods being taught. Here is a
link to our diocese's NFP office website. If you click on the "Links" heading in the left hand column, you'll find links to 4 different organizations that teach NFP.
At a recent appointment with my NFP-knowledgeable doctor, he told me that there are treatments for some kinds of conditions that make practicing NFP difficult. For example, many women experience all-the-time mucus, which makes it difficult to identify infertile times. He told me that this is sometimes caused by cells which should be inside the cervix migrating outside the cervix, causing inflammation and mucus production. He also told me that something can be applied to the cervix to kill those cells that are causing the problem. My doctor is training in the Creighton model of NFP (now called FertilityCare), and I believe that they have lots of low-tech ways of helping women who struggle with infertility and cycle problems. They have an institute in Nebraska, The Pope Paul VI Institute, which specializes in that kind of work. Perhaps they would be able help you at least have more regular cycles where you could more easily identify fertile and infertile times.
Yours is a very heavy cross to bear, and yet Church teaching is very clear on what is required, even in the most difficult of cases. Contraception and sterilization are always serious moral evils. If a couple has a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, then NFP or complete abstinance are the only morally acceptable ways to do it.
Another thing the Church is very clear on is that it is up to the couple, not anyone else (including friends, family, and even priests), to determine whether serious reasons exist or not. No one else can tell you that you should stop trying to have children, or that you should continue to try. That decision is between you and DH and the Lord and no one else has the right to judge or second-guess that decision, whatever it may be.
I encourage you to read the Church documents on this subject.
I will be praying for you tonight.
Dawn &n bsp;
__________________
Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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Anonymous1
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| Posted: June 24 2006 at 11:59am | IP Logged
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I thank you all for your prayers. My husband and I have had some discussion about this topic this week since I've posted. We both feel very blessed with the children God has entrusted to us here on earth, and feel that at some time in the future (we're talking about reassessing in about a year) we might be ready to open ourselves up to an addition. He is VERY concerned, however, about what another loss might do to my emotional well-being. Another 2nd trimester loss might be more than I can do--but I have always been of the mindset that "Hope is a risk that must be run."
At present, however, my hope is not focused on that "topic," if you will. My hope is that we can find a solution that will ease my mind and heart on this topic. I would like to be free of the weight of this current "option," but he is not willing to abandon it because we would have to go back to our "7 times in 6 months" status. He strongly feels that the marital embrace is vital to the unity of the couple, and in his mind, the unity of the couple and the risk of my well being (mentally and physically) outweigh the use of a "barrier," because of our history and the depth of loss we've experienced.
When we spoke about this the other night, I saw in him a flicker of grief about Jack's loss that I haven't seen before. I think that he has been grieving silently much more than I've been able to tell--and he probably hasn't shared it with me because he thought it would burden me further. I can tell that he is very fearful of another loss--and this is impacting his decision on this topic.
Please continue to pray for us! I know that we can find some way, if not at present, in the coming months to change our situation. I'm struggling with submitting to his decision on this, but don't know what to do.
Just for clarification--the form of NFP we were using was the FertilityCare system...and the Pope Paul Institute WAS the place/doctor that our NFP instructor wanted to send our charts. You wouldn't believe them if you saw them. At the risk of being graphic, it was/is the "constant" presence that keeps us in the "red" with this system.
I know there is another NFP form that uses cervical "position" (for lack of a better word), but I just don't think that I am capable of doing that kind. We have used the basal temp method before as well--mostly when trying to conceive, however--and I have reservations about how well it works in reverse, because the window of ovulation can vary so greatly, even when temps haven't spiked yet.
The Ladycomp/babycomp device sounds wonderful...but at $600-$800, is pretty cost prohibitive. I will talk to my OB about the procedure/traveling cells option.
I think I may have read just about every Church document ever written on this subject, but I will go back and see if I've missed anything.
Leonie, thank you for your kind words and for sharing your experience. It is exactly that "more children equals more holiness" attitude that we have experienced with the Catholic homeschoolers in this area, and that has hurt us so deeply. It's the arrogance I could do without, really. My mother always said to me, "you never know what's really happening in someone else's house." It's always easy to say what you would do, or quote the "party line" when it's not you faced with the enormity of the situation--and from our experience, it's easy for them to judge, too. I pray that those that have seared us with their comments will never have to feel the heat of their own words.
Thank you again, for your kind words and prayers. I'm sorry to be anonymous, but we've been judged, and judged, and I would prefer to be able to post elsewhere on this board without any bias towards me in the future.
God bless you all!
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esperanza
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| Posted: June 24 2006 at 1:06pm | IP Logged
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What a tremendous cross you are bearing. Know that you and your dh are in my prayers as well. I have a relative that has experienced some similar comments from other Catholic families as she has had fertility issues. This is very uncharitable.
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them" - Mother Teresa
God Bless you
__________________
In His Peace,
Tammy Gonzalez in VA
dh-Johnny
mom to Tara-'85, Noelle-'88, Jeremy-'91, Elizabeth-'93, Emma-'96, Dominic-'99, Gabriel-'01, Elijah-03
and Jacinta-06
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MichelleW
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| Posted: June 24 2006 at 2:01pm | IP Logged
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I have so wanted to say something here, but can think of pretty much nothing encouraging. I talked to dh about it and he said, "There really is nothing to say. There is only prayer." He and I have also been through more miscarriages than successful pregnancies and have struggled with applying the Church's teaching to our particular situation which seemed so unique at the time (not because we didn't want to, but because we couldn't figure out how to).
I know that God is merciful, and I know that in prayer you will find peace. I also know that His people often are not very merciful and that peace can be a long time coming. I am praying for this difficult time for you, confident in God's mercy and in His peace at the end of the tunnel.
Michelle
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Dawnie
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| Posted: June 24 2006 at 5:13pm | IP Logged
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Anonymous1 wrote:
I know there is another NFP form that uses cervical "position" (for lack of a better word), but I just don't think that I am capable of doing that kind. We have used the basal temp method before as well--mostly when trying to conceive, however--and I have reservations about how well it works in reverse, because the window of ovulation can vary so greatly, even when temps haven't spiked yet. |
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Yes, the Sympto-Thermal Method as taught by the Couple to Couple League (CCL) teaches women to observe the cervix itself, mucus, and basal body temperatures. DH and I are a teaching couple with CCL. The way the method is taught now, we teach how to interpret your fertility signs in a cross-checking way, as well as how to make an interpretation just using one or two signs.
The temperature-only system IS very effective. A couple using it may be limited to using only post-ovulation infertile times, BUT it sounds as though this would give you more usable days than you currently have. Yes, the window of ovulation can vary greatly, but once the temperature shift has occured, you can be sure that ovulation has occured. 2nd ovulations are rare and generally occur within 48 hours of the first. Also, the egg only lives from 6-24 hours. The hormone that is prevalent AFTER ovulation (progesterone) is what causes the temperature shift. Many women who have all-the-time mucus find that a temperature-only system works better for them. I encourage you to look into classes from CCL. They even offer a home study course. Their website is here. Please feel free to PM me if you have questions about the method you'd like to ask privately.
Also, keep in mind that barrier methods are among the least effective forms of birth control. A temperature-only system of NFP would be 98-99% effective in avoiding pregnancy. Remember that no form of birth control is 100% effective, and if you want to continue having marital relations with your husband, there will be a chance of pregnancy no matter what you use.
Anonymous1 wrote:
At present, however, my hope is not focused on that "topic," if you will. My hope is that we can find a solution that will ease my mind and heart on this topic. I would like to be free of the weight of this current "option," but he is not willing to abandon it because we would have to go back to our "7 times in 6 months" status. He strongly feels that the marital embrace is vital to the unity of the couple, and in his mind, the unity of the couple and the risk of my well being (mentally and physically) outweigh the use of a "barrier," because of our history and the depth of loss we've experienced. |
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The line of reason your DH is using is called proportionalism. It basically says that "when there is a conflict of values, a physical evil is not a moral evil if there is a proportionate reason for doing it. Proponents of proportionalism would say that is is permissible to use contraception if in the long run it fosters the values of marital fidelity, human sexuality, and the permanence of the marriage itself. It completely undermines univeral objective morality, and that's why it was condemned as erroneous by Pope John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor (nn. 79-83). It can't ever say 'absolutely never.' For example, we are certain that those who developed this argument would never say that building an orphanage was a proportionate reason for robbing banks and killing some bank guards, but that would be just their opinion. Since proortionalism rejects univeral objective morality, someone else might decide that helping the poor orphans would be a proportionate reason for robbing banks and killing innocent bank guards...Proportionalism provides a way to rationalize anything you can imagine." (Kippley, John and Sheila, The Art of Natural Family Planning, p. 283-284)
Anonymous1 wrote:
| Please continue to pray for us! I know that we can find some way, if not at present, in the coming months to change our situation. I'm struggling with submitting to his decision on this, but don't know what to do. |
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I wanted to share with you a section from Christopher West's book, Good News About Sex and Marriage: Honest Answers to Your Questions About Catholic Teaching that addresses your concern about submitting to your husband's decision to use a barrier method.
Christopher West wrote:
I accept what the Church teaches, but my husband insists that we use contraception. What should I do?
Continue patiently to lead him to the truth and meaning of your marriage by your own example of Christlike love. Above all, pray for him. The ultimate goal of your marriage is to lead each other to heaven.
Know that your suffering in this situation is not in vain. Offer it to Christ in intercession for your husband's change of heart. Expect miracles. I've seen them happen. If God can change my heart on this issue, he can change anybody's heart.
In the meantime, don't cooperate in the sin of your husband by directly assisting in the contraceptive behavior. For example, don't take the pill or insert a diaphragm for his sake. If he knows where you stand and still withdraws during intercourse, or even forces the use of a condom, then he alone is responsible for the contraceptive behavior.
You also have the option of refraining from intercourse as long as your husband insists on contracepting. Various consequences of this choice need to be weghed, but forcing a spouse to cooperate in objectively sinful behavior is abusive, and you are in no way obligated to submit to it. Out of concern for yourself, and for him, you may want to let him know you aren't available to be treated as a thing for his sexual "relief," all the while loving your husband and helping him to experience a change of heart. |
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I highly reccommend Christopher West's books. They have really helped my to understand the reasons behind Church teaching on marriage and sexuality.
There is no easy way to remain faithful to the Church in your case. No matter what you do, there will likely be suffering involved. Remember that Jesus never asks us to do what is impossible, only what is very difficult. And He always gives us the grace to do what He asks. Think of what the joy of Heaven will be like compared to what you may suffer now. Heaven will be worth anything we suffer on Earth. There we will be happy forever. Here, we may only be happy a little while.
May God bless you and DH and lead you both to the truth.
Dawn
__________________
Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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amyable
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I don't have any great advice, but I wanted to add my prayers. We too have had the "constant presence" you mention, but use the sympto-thermal method described by Dawnie. It has been very helpful to us in determining fertility or lack of it. I pray that if it is something you look into it will be helpful for you too. Somewhere online I remember reading a certain "cause" of constant mucous, I wish I could remember what it was, maybe it is treatable and then the NFP would be easier for you...
I'm just grasping at straws here, I want to ease your pain somehow.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Leonie
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| Posted: June 24 2006 at 8:09pm | IP Logged
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Anonymous1 wrote:
| Leonie, thank you for your kind words and for sharing your experience. |
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Thank you - I was going to delete my post cos I thought it was not really helpful and it made me feel vulnerable. I am so glad that it helped in some small way. I'll leave it now - and feel shy about it.
BTW, we chose not to use NFP but to be open - and prayer over each miscarriage has drawn us closer.
I will continue to pray...
__________________
Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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mumofsix
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| Posted: June 24 2006 at 11:38pm | IP Logged
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Let me add my prayers in your very difficult situation. I cannot really relate, other than to say that I have had a miscarriage, which was difficult as I knew it would probably be my only chance to have a baby biologically, but I do not compare this with late or multiple miscarriages.
I too have had the "she can't be a proper Catholic" reactions though: my children are widely spaced due to our difficult adoption laws. It took us 7 years to adopt the first and then the gaps are 5 years, 2 years, 7 years, 5 years and 3 years. I do alright now but I had years of put downs.
By the way, you might like to know that 5 is the magic number! A priest reckoned here to be very wise and holy once asked me how many children I had and I said 4: his mouth turned down and he looked away in some distaste. The same priest asked me the same question five years later, not recognising me. I said that I had 5 and he beamed! So silly ...
Jane.
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Patty
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: June 25 2006 at 3:15pm | IP Logged
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Dear Anonymous,
I am so sorry for all of your losses...the losses of your precious babies and of your parents. I am also sorry for the pain others have caused you by their comments and/or actions, whether intentional or not. It STILL hurts. Please know I will be praying for you and your family.
I wanted to share my story because, although significantly different from yours, it is in some ways similar. I do not have the genetic challenges you do. I have not had the same difficulties in carrying a pregnancy to term...though we have suffered two early miscarriages. My husband and I are blessed with seven children here on earth, and after the birth of the youngest (now six years old), I had a very large blood clot in my thigh and had to be hospitalized for nine days. I was on blood thinning medication for a long time and advised never to take the birth control pill or any hormonal contraceptive (which we would never do, but we were at a non-Catholic hospital because of our insurance at the time).
So...if another pregnancy were to happen, I would be at a much greater risk of developing another clot. I have permanent circulatory damage to my left leg...my lower calf and ankle swell sometimes. I do walk to improve circulation, but I don't think it will ever be completely normal. Another blood clot could be very, very serious. It could be fatal. Taking blood thinning meds during pregnancy could be very risky. My husband and I have prayerfully decided to avoid another pregnancy.
I was 38 when our youngest was born, so I didn't have decades of fertility left, but I did most likely have several years. I breastfed the youngest, as I did all of them, and my fertility returned at 15 months post partum. We have used NFP (Creighton Model) to avoid a pregnancy and no, it has not been all sunshine and roses. Now I am 45 and pre-menopausal. One NFP teacher told me perhaps we should only use the post-peak days...but I have had some very long cycles...up to 5 months...so that would have been almost 5 months of abstaining, except for the last ten days. Didn't happen.  (BTW, she was not our NFP teacher, just someone we happened to know). It is NOT easy, but I could never imagine living outside of God's will as set forth in Church teaching. There have been times I wondered if I could be pregnant, and I prayed and entrusted myself to God, even in the midst of my uncertainty. HE will never abandon us! Just wanted to clarify...when I said I entrusted myself to Him, I don't mean to imply that we stopped using NFP or used any days that I observed could possibly be fertile. We were still very cautious.
If I were you, I would probably use more than one method, or parts of different methods, to cross-check fertility. Even though you are/were using Creighton Model (FertilityCare) you could still cross-check by taking your basal body temperature and/or using some of the CCL observations.
I have no idea if sharing my story helped you at all, but I just wanted you to know that you are not the only one out there with a very serious reason to avoid a pregnancy. Please feel free to send me a private message if you would like.
Praying for you,
Patty
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Erin
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Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
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| Posted: June 25 2006 at 3:38pm | IP Logged
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Dear Anonymous,
You have been in my thoughts and prayers for days.
What an amazingly strong woman you are, you have certainly been 'tested in fire'. To lose so many little ones my heart breaks.
Yes people unfortunately can be judgemental, I have heard similar comments, thoughts to what you have expereinced and they make me cringe. Others don't have any ideas and should not judge but some do  But Jesus doesn't.
Ditto, regards checking that you're not abstaining more than you need to. I would get your teacher to follow up on that or check out another method.
I'll keep you in my prayers.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
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Anonymous1
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Joined: June 22 2006
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| Posted: June 25 2006 at 8:53pm | IP Logged
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Dawnie wrote:
The line of reason your DH is using is called proportionalism. It basically says that "when there is a conflict of values, a physical evil is not a moral evil if there is a proportionate reason for doing it. Proponents of proportionalism would say that is is permissible to use contraception if in the long run it fosters the values of marital fidelity, human sexuality, and the permanence of the marriage itself. It completely undermines univeral objective morality, and that's why it was condemned as erroneous by Pope John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor (nn. 79-83). It can't ever say 'absolutely never.' For example, we are certain that those who developed this argument would never say that building an orphanage was a proportionate reason for robbing banks and killing some bank guards, but that would be just their opinion. Since proortionalism rejects univeral objective morality, someone else might decide that helping the poor orphans would be a proportionate reason for robbing banks and killing innocent bank guards...Proportionalism provides a way to rationalize anything you can imagine." (Kippley, John and Sheila, The Art of Natural Family Planning, p. 283-284)
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Yes, I'm aware of the flaw in the reasoning. There are times, however, that FEAR causes flawed thinking. I don't think I would win an argument with him using this kind of approach. His fear is that we will lose another child. His fear is that if that should happen again,it will impact our entire family in a way that would be detrimental to us all. Our son suffered greatly over the loss of his brother. And I'm sure my husband is in a state of real, concerned conflict over whether or not he should, as a parent, put his child in that kind of position again. I understand his fear. I don't condemn him for it. I don't agree with his reasoning, but I can understand it. And, at present, I won't win the war by approaching the battle with this argument. It wouldn't come across as very compassionate, just argumentative.
I'm not technically savvy enough to do the "box quote thing" more than once, so I will have to cut & paste this:
"if you want to continue having marital relations with your husband, there will be a chance of pregnancy no matter what you use."
Ouch! If? And yowza--yes, we're very aware of the chance of pregnancy! We've been pregnant 12 times.
I know I'm very hypersensitive. Forgive me. But wow--think about how that would sound coming back.
Thank you to those who have bared their souls and shared their sad stories with me. If our situations can bring any good, it is thru holding each other up--please know how sorry I am for your losses, and will be remembering you in my prayers to the Holy Innocents.
I thank everyone for your prayers, and your thoughtful responses--it took a great deal of time for many of you to respond, and I thank you for caring. I think that I will retreat back into lurkdom until my heart moves off my sleeve.
God bless and keep you.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: I need help-this is LONG--sorry!
