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amyable
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I'm ashamed to admit that things are not going well in the amyable household. 
I have about a million and one questions about discipline, punishment, how to survive with a growing family in a tiny house with an introverted mother and four talkative girls  ...
...but I'll spare you for now and just ask this one:
Do you discipline and/or punish for bad attitudes in your home? Sulkiness? Slowness? A six year old who asks "Why should I?" when pleasantly asked to do something she doesn't see a need for?  What about the constant "forgetfulness" which to me seems like another form of bad attitude - i.e. I ask them to keep their voices down since they are playing in the room next to a sleeping baby, and not 5 minutes later I'm dashing back in there to tell them again...and again... or I ask that they answer me if I call to them (so that I know they've heard me and I don't have to shout) but they only do it maybe half the time, etc.
It really seems like they only do what they want, everything else is just attitude and a struggle. And with the older two being opposite in personality but both very strong willed kids, there seems to be MUCH more struggle than pleasantness.
Help.
What do you do in your home? Feel free to PM me, but I'm open to hearing anything.
Just FYI, my kids are 8.5, 6.5, 3, and just about to turn 1...and they don't have a whole lot of "privileges" to take away like a consistant computer or TV time or visits to friends. I'm mostly in need of help with the older two.
(well there shoots the idea that I'm perfect!! )
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Erin
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| Posted: May 03 2006 at 5:04pm | IP Logged
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Amy
Nothing to offer I'm afraid, just my support. 
I also get frustrated when you read all the discipline books and all the can suggest is withdrawal of priveleges we don't have to start with. 
I'm am starting to understand what you mean about girls, and yours have such STRONG personalities.
Our oldest is stong but by herself. Our other two are only 4 and 2 but already it is soo different to the boys. If I give one a cuddle the other rushes over and demands hers. If I tell the 2yr old she is beautiful the 4yrold demands to be told that she is too  Thankfully the 2 yr old doesn't talk yet. I don't know whether to wish this baby is a boy or girl, luckily I don't have to chose.
I have three boys in a row, different story, I'm used to the fighting  I grew up with five brothers all grouped together; my sisters and I were spread out so it was different to having girls together.
Not much help I know. However I'll pray for you today and will now be racking my brain for ideas.
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Erin
Faith Filled Days
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Bridget
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Amy, I'm in the middle of a major push to improve attitudes, work ethics, family relationships, etc. It is exhausting. But I am seeing some improvement. Actually, a lot of improvement.
My game plan is prevention, practicing good habits and example. This means I stay off the computer, phone, etc . most of the day.
I try to have the children with me as much as possible. We do the housework together, schoolwork together and play together. (They can play outside while I'm in because they just don't have problems outside. I can hear with the windows open.) Then i can catch a disagreement, or bad attitude as it is brewing and correct the problem. i can ask questions to help them see a better way to handle the problem. That's the prevention.
Practicing good habits means having the child repeat the action till it's done nicely. i.e. walking away without stomping. It can also be rephrasing their words into something more pleasent, helpful or kind.
Example means that I work cheerfully with them. I speak cheerfully to them. I look at problems as an oppotunity to train them, not as a hindrance to my day.
Removing priviledges or sending them to their rooms just breeds rebellion in my children. It's an after the fact punishment that just doesn't seem to help my crew.
We do not allow any disrespect or disobedience. I think the early years, toddler to about 5 are the times to really work on that. If you have that in place the rest of childhood is so much easier. (Disobedience and disrespect are not to be confused with childish judgement, silliness or forgetting things.)
When I do these things well, I go to bed exhausted and even stressed. But I am really seeing the fruits. The children are all being more polite, helpful, kind to each other.
We are heading into the teen years. We'll see how my ideas hold up. So far my oldest has not been disrespectful at all towards me or my dh.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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KC in TX
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Bridget, your words seem to hit me in the heart. I think I will follow your example. We are in the midst of a "Daddy is leaving for Iraq and I'm going to act out" stage. It's been such a difficult two weeks. I think we'll be fighting this for another two weeks because based on experience we always go through something similar. I have to admit that I've not been calm and collected either. 
I'm looking forward to hearing more.
Amy, I have some strong personalities too, but then so am I. It's poor dh who is introverted.
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KC,
wife to Ben (10/94),
Mama to LB ('98)
Michaela ('01)
Emma ('03)
Jordan ('05)
And, my 2 angels, Rose ('08) and Mark ('09)
The Cabbage Patch
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: May 03 2006 at 10:45pm | IP Logged
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Ditto everything Bridget said except the last paragraph. I have definitely seen disrespect in my older one. But, I might call "disrespectful" something someone else would not. For instance, when said child takes off a shirt and leaves it, inside out, on a pile of clean clothes in the laundry room, forcing Mom to do the sniff test to figure out whether it needs to be folded or in the hamper, I consider that disrespectful. I consider leaving messes in the family room after I've gone to bed for the night disrespectful. In order for a family to function well, we have to respect and emapthize with the feelings of each other. Anything else breeds disharmony.
Bridget's right, Teaching empathy is a fulltime job. All those bad habits originate in not thinking about how one's actions affect someone else. We have to remind them again and again so that they begin to develop that empathy.
I second the "no phone" rule. Time spent on the phone is a surefire downward spiral in my house. Computer time is a bit more manageable because my computer is in the midst of everyone and I catch snatches here and there. I also seem to be burning the candle at both ends lately.
I'm not one for intricate or even simple incentive/punishment programs. YOu do what you're supposed to they way you're supposed to because it's the right thing.
But I really believe it begins with modeling appropriate behavior. Are we faithful in our duties? Do we do it cheerfully? Can we delay gratification (i.e. walk away from posts unread, blog entires unwritten, because the people in our house need us more)? Do we work alongside them or do we command and then inspect? Angie's written several times about building unity through working together. And it's well past my bedtime so someone else can unearth those posts here and on her blog . But it's not hokey pop-child-psychobabble. The best way to get children to behave a certain way is to set the standard, articulate the standard, and then meet the standard yourself as often as humanly possible. Show them how you pray for help. Show them how you acknowledge and apologize when you fall short. We're all in this together. You are just leading the way...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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kristina
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Amy,
We struggle with discipline issues in our home, too. I wish I could say that I had perfect children and that I am a perfect mother, but I guess that our shortcomings are helping each other to grow in holiness.
I can share a few observations.
1. When our children have junky sugar or red dye, they get really spazzy. I think this is where Dr. Ray and I part company. He seems to think that studies prove there is no correlation. I beg to differ. Even my mother in law noticed a difference at a recent family gathering.
2. When our children watch a lot of tv, we get less cooperation from them. Their tv is limited to just a few select programs. One way to reel them back in is to read good, gentle stories. A storytime works wonders for our guys. Saint stories give great examples for our boys to emulate. I will say, though, if we read something silly when they are punchy and tired, they goof around way too much and seem to feed off of each other. Bad behavior seems to spiral further and further downward - noisy, interrupting, etc.. These are the times that I cannot read Mrs. Pigglewiggle and such.
3. Corporal discipline is just plain yucky for everyone. If it can only be done in anger, it should not be done. I have not heard one proponent of corporal punishment say that disciplining in anger is at all effective. As our children have gotten older, punishments for disobedience has evolved. Our eldest is nearly nine and consequences such as lost priveledges for bad behavior is far more effective.
One effective punishment for our pre-k - grammar age children has been time out on their knees in the corner. I know that Michael Pearl (No Greater Joy/ To Train Up a Child) disagrees and says that time out trains a child to brood. When our older ones were babies, I read much of the Pearl's materials. We even tried implementing their methods. The more I reflect upon that time, the more I get this discomfort in the pit of my stomach. Any discussion of The Pearl's seem to be a hornet's nest lately.
Cheerful attitudes from the children have been met with much gratitude from us, especially when there have been many times that it has been the opposite here.
We really really applaud them when they are good. When bad attitudes emerge here, we try to gently correct them. When the boys are noisy and won't settle down, I separate them. It seems to work.
Our latest discipline struggle is our eldest child setting bad examples with blatant defiance. It is as if right away, cheerful obedience has to be his idea or he has no part of it. For a while he seemed only to do what was asked of him only if there was a reward attached. Encouraging him to offer it up was not easy. One thing that helped him was making sacrifice beads. Simply reminding him that if he changed his heart and his attitude that moment would be a gift for Jesus, just like St. Therese.
I am thankful for the graces of our Catholic faith. When I put things in the context of our faith sometimes it is taken to heart, at least by our older children. I don't mean the old catholic guilt that is remembered by older family members. I mean that bad behavior is sinful behavior. Sins affect our relationship with God and they injure the Body of Christ. Disobedience to our parents is breaking the fourth commandment. When our boys have the heart to truly internalize that, we have seen improvements in their attitude. I am not saying they always have the heart for obedience. It certainly ebbs and flows with our guys. It is something we often have to go back and work on. For that matter, every sin that is committed boils down to some form of selfishness. Everyone struggles with dying to self. A bad attitude is a common facet of a struggle of dying to self. From what I have noticed, it is common to six year olds all the way to old age.
This topic of discipline is often on my mind. When I see the mom with twelve children say to her children "get in the van, time to go" and they are driving away, all buckled up in less than sixty seconds, I just want to ask her how she does it. There have been times when it has taken us twenty minutes to get everyone ready to go!
When I see families at our homeschool masses with well behaved children, I just want to ask them how they do it. I am afraid if I do ask, it will seem like more of a reflection on my parenting skills. I guess that is where I could offer it up and put humility into action.
I just read Bridget's post. It is very insightful and full of wisdom. I have to agree that spending more time truly present to the children has had the best results. I hope there are many other posts on this topic as our best examples have been other good families. I am thankful for these forums. I learn so much!
Blessings,
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kristina
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Elizabeth
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kristina wrote:
1. When our children have junky sugar or red dye, they get really spazzy. I think this is where Dr. Ray and I part company. He seems to think that studies prove there is no correlation. I beg to differ. Even my mother in law noticed a difference at a recent family gathering.
When I see the mom with twelve children say to her children "get in the van, time to go" and they are driving away, all buckled up in less than sixty seconds, I just want to ask her how she does it. There have been times when it has taken us twenty minutes to get everyone ready to go!
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Ask MacBeth about the dye thing; she stumbled onto a pretty scientific experiment with her youngest a couple of years ago. There are plenty of us who will testify to the diet/behavior connection.
As to the van, I'm one of those moms. But, any mother of that many children will have several who are older than your oldest. I have seven children. Four of them are older than your oldest child. If each them has one child to buckle, this is an easy task. When I had five who were younger than ten, I literally had nightmares about carseats!
Some of those struggles will dissipate all by themselves and you'll only remember them when someone asks you after Mass how it is you do it!
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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teachingmom
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| Posted: May 03 2006 at 11:42pm | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
| Do you discipline and/or punish for bad attitudes in your home? Sulkiness? Slowness? A six year old who asks "Why should I?" when pleasantly asked to do something she doesn't see a need for? What about the constant "forgetfulness" which to me seems like another form of bad attitude |
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Yes! Both dh and I have absolutely no patience for sulkiness or subtle rudeness. It doesn't happen that often, but we react immediately. Usually a very forceful verbal correction does the trick. We do send them to their rooms at times. The downside of that is that I am terrible with follow-through.
A few days ago my oldest was sent to her room for something right after we had finished our lessons for the day. (Rudeness? Pouting? My having to repeat a request two or three times? I can't remember now.) Her sisters and some neighborhood children were out playing, and I found myself wondering why she wasn't joining in. About that time, she called down the stairs, "Can I come out now?" Oops! I had forgotten I had sent her there.
I have been having a hard time disciplining my 6yo recently. She is such a likable, happy, sweet child in general. But she is completely distractible--I find myself telling her to do something and regularly finding her doing something completely different (and more fun) five minutes later. She also pouts a lot when she is frustrated with something or doesn't get her way, as of the past few months. I haven't had too much success with her yet. I can tell you one thing. Losing it and yelling doesn't help. I'm not completely sure if sending her to the corner, which is our discipline method of choice for her, helps at all either.
All this to say that I completely identify, and, yes, we do discipline for attitude.
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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mumofsix
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Amy, I will try to come up with a few ideas.
Incidentally, I liked your blog post, and so did many others by the looks of all the comments you got. A problem I have with blogs is the relentlessly upbeat tone. I understand the desire to inspire and encourage, a noble motive, but to me, too unrelentingly positive a tone feels unreal. I do see the difficulty of being more "honest" in that privacy has to be respected, but still, a more balanced approach and a more "real" flavour to the blogs would actually encourage me more.
So that this doesn't sound too superior, let me admit first of all that both my dh and I have had considerable problems with disciplining our ds 18. We have certainly had disrespect from him, at times in spades. However, the other five are very good children indeed and have never disrespected us. So I can see this from both ends, as it were.
What works for us is having a good, predictable routine. The children really thrive if they know what is expected of them. They do not resent chores that are part of that routine and just get on with them. We do not punish, but we do let natural consequences happen sometimes. For example, if you dawdle over your bedtime routine, there might not be enough time left for your bedtime story, as Mum has a teenager downstairs waiting for help with her high school courses - that sort of thing. I do expect obedience from the children, and I get it. I rarely have to get cross with them. I expect good attitudes, too. I simply will not help a rude child with her work or play, or have her at the table, and so on. If you want to be in my company, you had better be good company. They are, almost always.
So what happened with ds 18? I think he had much too much access to the computer, was not structured enough and simply couldn't cope. We treated him as if he were much more mature than he actually was. Now I would say this: if a child cannot self-regulate on, for example, the computer, then he must be regulated by Mum and Dad and follow their rules. If he defies these rules, he should lose the computer altogether for six weeks, and then try again. You will not die of computer deprivation. I would not class that as a punishment, but more of a natural consequence.
I also have the model family at Mass and in the car, etc. Don't be fooled! The older ones help the younger ones, as Elizabeth says, and there may well be problems behind any brilliant facade you see!
Jane.
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mary
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my kids are young (the oldest is almost 8) so i can only offer what i've experienced so far and i'm going to look for all the suggestions i can get on this thread as well!
my kids are almost 8, 5.5, 3 and i'm due in june. my 8 and 3 yr old are very independent pple and given to mouthing off. i'm sure the apple didn't fall far from the tree here so i try so hard to remember that i was just like that as a kid and still struggle with this. my middle child would burst into tears if i looked like i was upset with him.
i don't allow disrespect, either in tone of voice or action - and i try to be careful of my own tone of voice but sometimes fall short here. i do apologize but i know that it's me they are role modeling when it comes back at me. anyway, if they talk rudely, they have to rephrase their statement. if my kids say why should i, the answer is because i said so and if they question it again, there will be a consequence (unless they are honestly asking why we are doing something.) if they are slow, i remind them that we can't do X until they have picked up and if they are still dwaddling, i offer to do it myself and then i put their things (if they are picking up) in my mommy bag - which is a spot on the top of the china cabinet that can't be reached. the item(s) are then gone for 24 hours. they know that's what will happen if i help, it's not a surprise.
lately, i'm struggling with my oldest and handling his temper. he also struggles with being kind to his younger brother who is literally 1/2 his size. last week we impletmented service hours as a consequence for bad behavior. if he bullies his little brother, he has an hour of service (generally reading books). if he mouths off to me, he will be cleaning my windows or sweeping floors. we don't do 'time outs' but i do suggest that he can go to his room to get control of himself.
for my 3 yr old, if she says no, i remind her that i will owe her a no when she asks for something. if she does something quickly, i tell her that i owe her a yes. and then i follow through with, i owe you a yes, would you like to sit and play dolls together? or whatever she loves to do. now, after she does something quickly, she reminds me that i owe her a yes and makes suggestions about what it should be.
i wonder if 8 is just a difficult year? or maybe i just haven't done a good enough job in those toddler - 5 years.
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Karen E.
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| Posted: May 04 2006 at 7:53am | IP Logged
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So many good ideas and encouragement here.
I would just second the notion that I have to be really present to my kids to stay on top of things. Bridget's description of "prevention" is also a priority here ... I try to stay very tuned in, off the phone, etc. It's amazing how well kids can learn to solve problems when you've modelled it for them or navigated them through it roughly 357 times .... They do eventually pick up on it and put it into action.
Also, I agree with previous posts about the loving approach -- I find it's really helpful to sit down and talk with the girls periodically about why we do what we do (the bottom line being for love of God.) We talk about my role as a mom, my love for them, and that it's out of love that I'm teaching them, correcting them, helping them to grow up to be the people God wants them to be. (This kind of talk is tailored to their varying ages, of course ... it can be very simple, and get more complex as they get older.)
For younger ones, it can help for them to understand that the best way they can obey God is to obey their parents. Mine also seem to appreciate reminders that we all are asked to do things that we don't enjoy or don't see a need for .... mine now laugh when I offer the reminder, "Do I clean toilets because I love the job?" ("No," they concede, "you clean them because you love us.") But the laughter was born from a series of serious talks. Even 8 and 6 and 3 year olds can understand the ideas of family, teamwork, and pulling together to accomplish what God wants us to do.
Sometimes these points can be made in a funny way. I turn the situation around and point out to the kids that they wouldn't feel very good if every time they asked me for something I complained or whined. (What if I just didn't feel like making dinner for a week?)
All that said, I find it's definitely an ongoing job, a big job. My oldest is just heading into the teen years. So far, she still tells me everything she's thinking and feeling, and she's able to turn her pouty moods around fairly well. But it requires constant vigilance! And I think that years of work could go down the drain if I drop the ball in the next few years! Gotta stay present, stay on top of things, keep listening, correcting, and on and on and on ....
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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MicheleQ
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teachingmom wrote:
| I have been having a hard time disciplining my 6yo recently. She is such a likable, happy, sweet child in general. But she is completely distractible--I find myself telling her to do something and regularly finding her doing something completely different (and more fun) five minutes later. She also pouts a lot when she is frustrated with something or doesn't get her way, as of the past few months. I haven't had too much success with her yet. I can tell you one thing. Losing it and yelling doesn't help. I'm not completely sure if sending her to the corner, which is our discipline method of choice for her, helps at all either. |
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Irene, are you sure you aren't talking about MY 6 yr. old?? Seriously my dd is just like this and for her I know it's more of a personality thing than disobedience. I know because I remember being just like that as a kid. I wasn't deliberately trying to disobey I would just forget and yet it was so painful to be told I was "bad" when I really didn't mean to be.  What helps with her is to take her aside and gently remind her of what the rules are or what she was supposed to be doing. I tell her I understand how easy it can be to forget these things and that's why I am reminding her. She then gets a warning that if it happens again there will be some kind of discipline (generally missing out on something). She has such a sweet heart and she is almost always so sorry that she forgot and truly makes an effort to do better. She doesn't always succeed but I do see her trying. I'm always looking for little ways to encourage her and show her that I understand her (something I never felt as a child). For instance, she tends to make a mess of her room when she is playing. That's fine as long as she cleans up her mess but that's where she usually runs into trouble. It's not because she's lazy but because the idea of cleaning up all that mess is overwhelming to her. She's a very visual right-brained little girl and the speaker I heard in Memphis a few months back gave me this suggestion: Take a picture of her room when it is all clean and in order. Print out the picture and post it on the bedroom wall for her to use as a guide for what she needs to do. AH! Works like a charm! Anyway I don't know if this is helpful but I thought I'd share since our 6yr. old girls sound so similar.
Amy, you have gotten a lot of really good solid advice and I don't think there's anything I can add. Hang in there!
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Taffy
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| Posted: May 04 2006 at 9:55am | IP Logged
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I think I might be printing out this thread - lots of good advice here!
Amy, I second everything Bridget said - those were the methods we used to correct my PDD boy's problems with aggression a few years ago. It's very intensive but also, very effective.
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Susan
Mom to 5 on earth and 1 in heaven
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teachingmom
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| Posted: May 04 2006 at 1:15pm | IP Logged
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MicheleQ wrote:
| Irene, are you sure you aren't talking about MY 6 yr. old?? Seriously my dd is just like this and for her I know it's more of a personality thing than disobedience. |
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Oh, Michelle, thank you so much for taking the time to write! I found what you wrote so helpful. Especially since you can identify with our dds' personalities. Unfortunately, I can't identify from experience. I am coming to realize that one of my weaknesses is having a hard time understanding things from the perspective of family members who are completely different from me. Reading "The Hidden Power of Kindness" is helping, but I have so far to go!
The picture of the bedroom is such a great, simple idea. One of the things I haven't been able to understand with dd is related to keeping her room at a basic level of neatness. Her 7yo sister, with whom she shares a room, is much more neat by nature. We have a rule in our house that everyone must make her own bed (as well as she is able) and clean up the floor of her room before going down to breakfast. Each morning when I call my 6yo dd back upstairs to pick up the clothes, shoes, stuffed animals, etc. that litter her floor, she inevitably leaves things undone. When I tell her to go back and pick up _everything_ that is hers and does not belong on the floor, she whines that she can't. She feels overwhelmed by the task. When I look at the situation, I see a sock here, a pair of underwear there, a decorative pillow there, etc. and think, "Why in the world can't she do this simple thing?"
Somehow, reading that you were like that as a child and hearing that you go through similar things with your dd helps so much. I usually end up having to work alongside my 6yo so she can complete the task. I guess I just need to reconcile myself to the fact that she needs more help and direction than her sisters did at her age and stop working against her personality so much. As frustrated as I can become sometimes, it's impossible to really get angry at her (well, not for more than a minute or two) because she is so good-hearted, and like your dd, doesn't disobey intentionally. Thanks again!
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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Willa
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amyable wrote:
| Do you discipline and/or punish for bad attitudes in your home? Sulkiness? Slowness? A six year old who asks "Why should I?" when pleasantly asked to do something she doesn't see a need for? What about the constant "forgetfulness" which to me seems like another form of bad attitude - i.e. I ask them to keep their voices down since they are playing in the room next to a sleeping baby, and not 5 minutes later I'm dashing back in there to tell them again...and again..) |
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Hi Amy,
I haven't read all the replies, yet..... I don't know how long I will have on the computer.
Forgetting to keep voices down sounds like a developmental issue to me. Honestly, my kids just never got this until they got over about 9 or 10 years old.....at LEAST. I learned to be proactive about the sleeping baby -- keep the kids in a separate area or use that time to do read-alouds or bring out the educational toys or do something semi-quiet where I was right there to hush them before the voices got too loud. Or I would nap with the baby and just shut out the voices, but my kids were a bit older than yours by then....
"Why should I?" could be a genuine question or a sort of covert "no" depending upon the circumstances. If you've already explained why in the past, a reminder of the previous discussion might help but I usually tell my kids to go ahead and do the thing and THEN we'll talk about why, if it's still necessary. Often it turns out it isn't! That keeps it honest -- so the child isn't learning to use verbal stalling techniques as a form of defiance or to put things off.
I don't know if it will come out sounding weird, but I try to avoid assigning motives to behavior. Maybe it's just that I'm not a very acute person with interpersonal relationships. I have blind spots and sometimes see a bad attitude when it's not really there, or I DON'T see a bad attitude when it is there. I can really discourage myself seeing how far my children have to go, and how far I have to go myself, and how that reflects on me. I just try to avoid all that and work on managing the situation as it exists now.
So I try to focus on just the action and how to manage it so it doesn't cause trouble. Building habits, like obeying BEFORE asking. Usually the management can be almost exactly the same for developmental issues as it is for sin and character issues, or so I've found. The thing is to change the behavior if it is unacceptable or sinful. It doesn't have to be punitive; in fact punitive seems to make things worse in this house at least. I have quiet, but fiery and stubborn, Celtic kids; they are like me and DH! when it comes to a deadlock of wills, they would rather be boiled in oil than give in!
Then I work on character separately as a positive thing, not directly a behaviorial thing. Like with stories and discussions, that kind of thing.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Christine
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| Posted: May 04 2006 at 4:19pm | IP Logged
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Thank you for all the advice.
Amy, if it makes you feel any better, we live in an 1800 sq. ft. house with five children, ages 8 and under.
My one-year-old is constantly woken by his siblings. Yesterday, we had a bowl of cereal spilled all over the dining room floor, a shattered corelle plate all over the dining room floor (a few shards were in the hallway), and a full jug of juice spilled all over the kitchen floor. Most of these messes could have been avoided had I been present and had children followed rules.
A few things that we find helpful are:
If a child speaks disrespectfully (I've noticed this seems to start happening around age 7 with girls), he needs to repeat what he said in a proper tone of voice and apologize for the manner in which he spoke.
If a child stomps away, he needs to come back and walk away properly.
If children are fighting with eachother, they need to apologize, accept the other's apology, and say a prayer to Jesus to help them not to fight again. I do not accept, "But he started it, etc." My mom always told us that it takes two to fight.
My parents did not believe in time-outs, as they believed that this method of discipline fostered resentment (I agree). For the most part, my parents used the power of persuasion and they were very good at it (I believe it goes hand in hand with modeling appropriate behavior). I am still working on this aspect of character development and most likely will be, as long as I have children at home.
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Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
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amyable
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| Posted: May 04 2006 at 5:20pm | IP Logged
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Thank you ladies, all of you! You had some great advice, and I needed to also hear that I'm not alone.
FWIW, I blame my confusion on what to do on St. Therese. I've been reading about about her, and how she would be extremely charitable when someone was gruff, or impatient, or mean with her. She would never bring up their behavior and would just be sweet as sugar. I'm not saying I *shouldn't* be sweet, but I was starting to think that perhaps the "Catholic Way" of raising kids should be ignoring all their bad behavior and nasty attitudes and just being sweet!
Granted, I have been far from sweet in the girls' young lives, something for which I am very sorry but working extremely hard to overcome. But I just couldn't see how ignoring all the bad behavior could make it go away...and things were just spiraling out of control here. What I need is a book that shows how a saint would raise children (I've read Story of a Family - I need more "how to" than that ). Maybe that is what this forum is for!
I'm going to try harder to be present, really *there* with my kids. It will be hard for this introvert - please pray for me! I'm also going to try, yet again, to have a better routine/schedule in place now that the baby is getting older and a little easier to work around.
(for Christine - I appreciate hearing about your house and family. We are in 1100 sq feet - poorly laid out at that, with odd room shapes - with 4 children. I think my next post might just be on making the most of small houses! )
Thank you again ladies, from the bottom of my heart. No one I know IRL with the exception of one woman understands these thoughts and struggles. Usually I just get comments and looks along the line of, "Well you are the crazy one who wanted all these kids." (Yes and I'll be the one surrounded by love in my old age so just be quiet )
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Willa
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| Posted: May 04 2006 at 6:18pm | IP Logged
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Amy,
I don't think anyone can be TOO patient or sweet. Where I have to be careful personally is in letting patience become withdrawal, and sweetness become fear of getting into conflict. I've been there.... I'm afraid of my own temper. It builds up and then explodes. It is sharp and irrational.
I relate to St Therese because she was like that, too, by nature. Her temper was hot and quick, from what I've read. She had to work to overcome it. But I read her books as saying that she did it proactively, by jumping right into the situation and letting it challenge her and still being loving and personal.
Not easy??? especially when we have a duty to bring up our kids. It's like Augustine said with food: we can't give it up completely, but we have to do it temperately. God must give us so many graces, because He wants us to do it right, I am sure. St Therese's mom Zelie had a fiery spirit as well as intense love for her children and so much honesty -- she reminds me a bit of you, actually, especially since she had a parcel of girls too.
The message I get from St Therese's writings is to really think charitably of the person who's being aggressive and THEN, act from that love. It helps me to look for WHY my children might be acting the way they are. Yes, it might be sin but SIN does not come from nowhere -- it's making a bad choice of the lesser good over the greater one. What's making my child make that choice? Can I make it easier for him to make a good choice? Thinking of it that way helps me be positive which is DIFFICULT for me -- I'm a pessimist who extrapolates into the future -- if he's like this at 6 where will he be at 16??? I know, easier said than done. One priest told me to pray for vocations every time I lost my temper and it helped a lot for some reason. Maybe a few seminarians are on deck now because of all my lapses!
If it's any help, when I had 4 children and was pregnant with the 5th, I lived in an 1100 sq foot house -- in Oregon where it rained half the year -- and another quarter I struggled with hay fever -- and I was usually pregnant, and we didn't live in the safest area of town --- oooh, it was a struggle sometimes. Pressure cooker is about it! And everyone there was so 1-2 child oriented -- I was abashed even to go to LLL meetings for support because I was the only one there struggling with such a handful of little barbarians Everyone else had one "free spirit" whom they could mother naturally and I had a tangle of them usually in tears or at odds!
My kids are good kids now, not saints, but the olders help the youngers and all that. Those intense trial by fire days have faded out of my memory a bit. I guess I should try to recollect and post on my blog so it doesn't look all relentlessly upbeat, there have definitely been moments!!!
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Willa
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| Posted: May 05 2006 at 12:10pm | IP Logged
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I was thinking about it some more--
I guess my ideal is for my kids to obey out of love and because they trust me to ask what's right and reasonable, not because they have to out of fear or compulsion.
I know, that's way too idealistic and dreamy in the short run when faced with a defiant or careless kid, but it helps me think: How can we make this work for everybody, not just for me OR just for them?
The Catholic Way to bring up children, it seems to me, is in the spirit of 2 Corinthians 13
Enduring, always willing to see the good spark in the bad picture, and build on that.
Obviously this is NOT how I live day to day Please don't imagine I'm recommending this as an easy and simple standard. In some ways, when I realize how very far I fall short in spite of trying hard, it helps me see how my kids may be in the same boat -- trying to do well, getting discouraged, reacting badly, ..... sounds very familiar to me, so helps me realize we are on the same walk and I'm not really all that much further than they are!
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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stacykay
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| Posted: May 05 2006 at 1:26pm | IP Logged
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Amy,
thank you for starting this thread. I was extremely convicted when I read it. We have been in a state of spiraling downward for longer than I can bear to admit. It began the year my mum took ill, and has been creeping down ever since. So slowly I didn't notice until I had two incidents of very disrespectful behaviour from my 11 and 15 yo dss.
One thing I know is that is different for us "pre" and "post" that difficult year if the lack of schedule. I used to keep to a schedule of sorts, nothing hard and fast, but it certainly kept us all going and learning.
Another thing is the phone and computer (as Bridget mentioned.) I have come to realize I depend way too much upon these diversions, and have to refocus.
I am going to try to implement some of these suggestions!
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
mum to 6 ds's
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Discpline for attitude
