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folklaur
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| Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 7:04pm | IP Logged
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i am on many homeschool lists. and - especially at this time of year, with the upcoming holidays and family gatherings - there is so much stress associated with interfamily relationships.
i see a lot of advice that sounds so harsh towards the parents. in some cases i am sure it is warranted. but every time? it makes me so sad how easily some people seem to suggest cutting parents out of their lives.
i often assume, that even when things my mom says to me that i feel are inappropriate, or even offensive, that she does not mean it like that. she thinks, i am sure, that she is being helpful, sharing her wisdom, whatever.
how can i be sure - especially now with an adult, married daughter - to not do/say those things? do we just not ever give our advice or point of view to our adult children? what can we do to ensure that our children won't be on a forum somewhere as adults complaining about needing boundaries from us?
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 7:14pm | IP Logged
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A quick rule of thumb to me is 1) did you listen? I don't know how often the "lecture" I got was when they jumped to conclusions rather than listen to what was actually being said and 2) would you say it to a friend.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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anitamarie
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If you are feeling like offering advice, I think I would ask if the person wants your advice and, if not, don't offer it. Sometimes, people are just sharing or venting and don't really want advice, just to be listened to and to share what's going on in their lives.
I think it's hard for parents to step back from parenting mode after their children are adults. I have to say I have been blessed with in-laws that do not offer any unsolicited advice. (We live really close.) They never say a word about anything, even if they disagree with or disapprove of something. It is soooo wonderful, and we feel really supported. I really am going to try to be like them when my dc are adults.
Good luck and God bless.
Anita
ETA: These are the first people we go to for advice, and I think it is because of their attitude. They are always happy to give advice when asked.
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Willa
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| Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 9:57pm | IP Logged
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A dear friend who has a master's in family therapy told me that the characteristics of dysfunction in a family are secrecy and enmeshment -- being very entangled in each others' lives, and keeping bad things hushed up. It's very sad because they are in some ways distortions of things very necessary for a healthy family -- privacy and attachment.
In a healthy family, differentiation is allowed -- children grow up with a sense of solidarity with their family but also a sense of personal individuality and potential. They may get advice from their parents but they don't feel like their relationship rides on their conforming to their family's expectations.
When the parents have not set healthy boundaries, the grown children sometimes have no choice but to put up the boundaries that weren't given to them in their childhood. They need to carry out the differentiation process themselves and that sometimes means making rules that give them space to develop their own lives. It's difficult to do this when childhood scripting is working in a contrary direction; but important to do it so that the dysfunction doesn't carry through to another generation.
Or that's how I understand it.
I think it's OK to offer advice, but the response of the adult child should dictate that. If the grown child doesn't seem to want the advice, I would let it drop. Another danger is that the adult child might become too dependent on the advice and help of his or her parents. A lot of family stresses arise because one spouse is still wrapped up with his or her family of origin and quite dependent on them, and the other spouse of course has no such entanglement.
I am sort of reminding myself of all this because it's hard for me to have my birds flying out of the nest and so I know I have to make an effort to be appropriate -- not too protective or too careless. Hard balance, I think!
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 10:19pm | IP Logged
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Another perspective:
My mom was just here on a a visit and asked me if I thought it was okay for her to tell another (vegan) family member that she did not want to be criticized for her food choices.
Of course, I told Mom she should set limits and tell the other (dedicated!) family member not to discuss her (Mom's) foood choices, in the most polite way possible.
In other words, this is a two-way street. It's not only grandparents/in-laws who err on the side of criticism, it's the homeschooling parents' generation.
In the end, I think if we all honor the Fourth Commandment, we will be pleasing to Our Lord. While making sure we're on the proper path, we should also welcome and honor other faith traditions.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Bridget
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You have to start in early childhood telling your children that you know everything.  Just teasing.
I will probably be up front with my children and tell them many times that any advice I give is given in love. I am teaching myself right now to couch advice to my older children in encouragement and love.
And, as Willa said so well, not to pressure them into feeling that the relationship rides on conforming to the advice.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Bookswithtea
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Bridget wrote:
| You have to start in early childhood telling your children that you know everything. Just teasing. |
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Dh and I have thought about this a lot. My grandmother is the one I am going to try to emulate. She always reiterated her support and always found something nice to say about the decisions we were making. She just does. not. say. if she doesn't like a decision. Well...every once in a blue moon she will say something, but I tend to listen because its so rare that she will offer an opinion. 
Another thing I've noticed is that I think its the early years that are the rockiest. Establishing those boundaries clearly and firmly can lead to a lot of hurt, even when one tries to be gentle. On the child's side, I think their emotions are still immature and they tend to boil over easily. They are so hungry for autonomy but still want approval. On the parent's side, they want their kids to choose similarly to their own choices. They feel defensive when a child chooses something completely opposite.  But once everyone is more used to the boundaries (and age helps, too), well, I think life sort of moves on and things get better (punctuated with the occasional awkward moment, of course  ).
Realistically, our kids know us awfully well. They know what we approve of and bless, and what we are less than enthused about. I sure knew with my own mom and with my in laws.  I am hoping that will help me to show some discretion when it comes time to keep my own mouth shut.
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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stellamaris
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| Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 7:47am | IP Logged
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I have come to the conclusion that all families have some level of dysfunction...we are all suffering under the effects of original and actual sin. So we will not be able to be perfect parents, though we try our best! There will be times when we overstep our boundaries, say what should not have been said, and offend those we most want to help and support.
In addition to our fallen nature, we have a family dynamic that we must contend with. As our children begin to establish themselves in this world, they need to see themselves as independent from us. At the same time, they want our approval for every choice they make, which, of course, we will not always be able to give them, but it is this process of having to suffer a bit of disapproval from us that in fact forms them into their own people. How many of us had our parents object to our decision to homeschool our chidren or to have a large family, and this objection only caused us to marshal more information and resources to pursue homeschooling or not use contraceptives?
When adult children do make choice we consider immoral (not just foolish), we have a responsibility to say something to them at least once...no need to constantly repeat! I do believe, however, that we are accountable to offer a word of correction or rebuke just as we ought to do for anyone in serious mortal sin, regardless of whether they like what we have to say or not.
I guess what I am trying to say is:
1) As they establish themselves, young people are more sensitive to our comments and criticism than we know. For this reason, we should severely limit our comments/corrections to those areas that have a truly eternal consequence.
2) While we should respect their choices, if we do voice an objection, it is not the end of the world. It can have the beneficial impact of either helping them see a bad choice in a new light, or confirming in their lives a good choice that we may not like, but that they will need strength to pursue.
3) Having made our objection, we should then shut up and let natural consequences unfold without anger or bitterness. We all need to learn lessons in life, and our children do, too. We want unconditional love as we go through this difficult learning process, and so do they.
4) We need to model charity and forgiveness toward our own parents if they are in the habit of offering frequent "tips" to us...A defensive attitude in not necessary if we are living our lives in accordance with the Truth God reveals to us. We can love them without especially liking their comments. We can understand that there need not be a response to a comment that is out of line; we do not need to defend our position, explain it, or try to convince them of its value. In my experience, I have found that all of these reactions just engage them and encourage them to persist in commenting on our lives. It is possible to "let it roll off your back" when you are firmly convinced that you are doing God's will.
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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Angie Mc
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Replying to OP (and looking forward to coming back and reading the rest.)
1. Give advice if its a matter of big harm and/or big damage. I know of many parents from my growing up community who abdicate their responsibility to adult children in these matters as if once a child turns 18, "They're on the own." Some of these parents present this as a virtuous stand, as a way to "respect" their older children or as a way to "let them learn the hard way." Many of these parents were treated the same way by their parents, were left to their own devices, and don't know how to act differently with their own children. It takes a lot of courage, charity, and tact (and practice) to approach big issues, yet I see it as part of our ongoing responsibility as parents. Two examples that popped into my head are needing to talk with young adults about their use of birth control and getting into consumer debt.
2. If its not big harm or damage but you're still concerned, ask, "Would you like my advice on this?" If yes, tell stories of how you learned things the hard way. If no, say that you are proud of them for working so hard to grow up, that's its hard, and that you know they'll pull through.
3. Avoid getting into "triangles" with your child and their spouse (or their friend, or their dad, etc.) Let two people work things out for themselves and say things like, "I love you both and I know you two can work this out together."
4. Make an effort to balance out any concerns with lots of other giving, serving, loving. Stay in touch with little notes, gifts, light get-togethers. We can help them to see outside of themselves, to see others, to see God.
You might want to check out Honoring Father and Mother.
Laura, Dave and I have a joke similar to your concern, "I sure hope (enter our child's name) doesn't end up talking about this with a psychologist someday" ta da ta chh . As parents we're still learning and making mistakes. Yet, learning how to parent a young adult is one of the biggest and most excited challenges out there. It truly is hard and mysterious which gets us back to...
Praying.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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teachingmyown
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Angie Mc wrote:
Laura, Dave and I have a joke similar to your concern, "I sure hope (enter our child's name) doesn't end up talking about this with a psychologist someday" ta da ta chh .
Love, |
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Dh loves to harass the kids with big hugs, even when they are in a bad mood, and tell them he doesn't want them to ever be able to go on Oprah and say their daddy didn't love them!
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
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Another thing to think about is that time heals many minor wounds. This is something we could mention to our teen children before they leave home...illustrated with stories from our own relationships with parents and in-laws, as appropriate.
I used to get so worked up when parents/in-laws criticized or offered well-meaning but misguided advice (e.g. about breastfeeding, when they had never done it). It was easier to take offense than to see the love behind the comments and suggestions. I really had to work hard to figure out which boundaries were appropriate to set (and then to get the nerve to set them).
Now, as my oldest is almost 18, I can take criticisms from the very same people and put them in much better perspective.
There are many great ideas in this thread. It can be very difficult for parents to hang back and let children find their own way, especially when they make choices that seem like they won't work out. I plan to rely heavily on St. Monica, who knows all about adult children, bad choices and the power of prayer!
Caroline has a good point, though - we are obligated to point out sinful choices (once or more, as appropriate) to our adult children.
My mom's friends' children - my age and younger - have, for the most part, left the Church. Mom wondered aloud this weekend how it was that I remained a faithful Catholic and I told her it had a lot to do with good examples (Mass while on vacation, for ex.) and with continued involvement (music, in my case) from a fairly young age. I think if our children, of any age, come to us asking for more involvement (altar serving, perhaps) or access to sacraments (my ds likes to go to Confession frequently), we must set aside our own concerns and foster these proper instincts in our children. It can be hard (you can PM me about altar serving in a music ministry family, LOL!) but we must try our best.
I say this because I think later on my children will see that we tried to support their faith and their personal involvement in the life of the Church...and that someday that will mean something to them, something they will hopefully emulate in their own growing families.
I like Angie's approach - "Would you like my advice on this?" - and am trying to do this more and more with my almost-adult son. Offering advice instead of assuming it's wanted typically results in his willingness to listen. When he doesn't take the advice, or modifies it to suit himself, well...see above note on St. Monica.
I love this thread...
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Marcia
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I'm *star*ing this thread. I needed to read this my first two years of marriage. Now after 13 years I am beginning to create boundaries that I feel right with. But I'm not guilt free about the past years. I find that the commandment to Honor is one I come back to month after month. I want so much to honor but also be able to have a personal self.
I'm coming back here to read this all again. Thanks for all the veteran moms for posting. I love learning your wisdom.
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Marcia
Mom to six and wife to one
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Maddie
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teachingmyown wrote:
| Dh loves to harass the kids with big hugs, even when they are in a bad mood, and tell them he doesn't want them to ever be able to go on Oprah and say their daddy didn't love them! |
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We joke that they'll be in therapy because they were kissed way to much. Think: 8 siblings/2 parents kissing you for every little sweet sigh.
Are you defining adult children here as moved out adult children? Age 18 children?
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JodieLyn
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I'm defining it as ones that are "seperate" in some way.. if you're still at home then you still need to follow house rules etc.
But my experiences are after being married.. and I do think it has a lot to do with the parents struggling with letting go.
But also for us, it had a lot to do with not listening. They had their own ideas about what we should be doing or planning for the future and would NOT hear anything else. Example, the car we had died and we had to buy a new one.. they insisted and insisted that we should get a mini-van rather than a suburban.. would hear nothing about why we wanted the suburban, could only see our present circumstances (which both dh and I went into with the idea that it would be as temporary as possible.. namely living in Tucson, AZ).. and because of our short time frame we did end up with a mini-van and then we heard how wonderful it was and how it's the perfect thing for us.. until that winter when we were visiting them up north and it was snowing.. then they looked at it and said.. you need 4 wheel drive.  guess what we'd been saying about wanting the suburban.. that we wanted to live where 4-wheel drive would be a benefit for winter driving. Not a case of not caring.. but of not listening. And of course within the year we'd moved North and live where there's ice and snow much of the winter.. and now we drive a 15 pass. van which handles, as a friend says, like an elephant on ice skates.. though studded tires do help.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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folklaur
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i need to tell you ladies something. i asked this same question here and on another, non-catholic homeschool forum.
i don't know if it is our faith, or just how humble and gracious you all are, but the responses *here* have been heartfelt and beautiful and thoughtful and it has been a joy to read them.
thank you.
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melanie
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My mom has a very controlling, critical mother. I think she is dealing with it a lot better now than she used to..she seems less sensitive to her obnoxious comments, and that's good because she (my grandmother) gets worse as she gets older... . It's never bothered me much, I guess because she's not my mom, it's not the same dynamic and I just kind of brush her off, but she's really hurt my mom many times. My mom and I are really close, and I know she makes a conscious effort to *not* be like her mother. One thing she has said is that criticism *after* something has happened is never helpful. It is never helpful to tell someone after they've done something dumb to tell them how dumb they were, how they should have done this or that instead, etc. They *know* they did something dumb, they most likely realize what they should have done instead, and rubbing their noses in it is not helpful or kind.
Otherwise, I think it's generally ok to offer advice to your grown kids. Just be prepared to drop let it go if they choose not to follow it. And not to rub their noses in it if it turns out they would have been better off listening to you.
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: How do we not be *those* parents?
