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Sarah
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This is a branch off several other threads now that are going about socialization.
I realize that the socialization argument is not a good one against homeschooling.
However, every once in a while I get a little nervous that I'm not doing well in this department. I'm having one of those moments now. If only I felt as confident as Alice sounded about her children. 
What are some social goals for our kids?
How do we know that they ARE developing well socially.
Honestly, with a horrid pregnancy last year  and a new baby this year  , we've ducked out of quite a few engagements.
Here's one that gnaws at me constantly: Do kids need to have friends their own age, separate from their siblings? My oldest son is 9.
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Leonie
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Sarah,
I found that the extra socialization gradually came, as our family grew and children grew older.
Boys in my family that were very different and, perhaps,less than social at age eight are now the ones who are presidents of youth branches of political parties, on parish councils, etc.
I guess I am saying don't worry and time will gradually change things and bring in new social arrangements.
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Leonie in Sydney
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alicegunther
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Great topic, Sarah.
My number one goal for socialization is happy kids. If the children are happy and cheerful, hopefully, the fine points will fall into place. I would say that a nine year old who is happy and content playing with his brothers and sisters doesn't need as much outside socialization as a nine year old who pines away every day complaining about boredom or loneliness.
With four girls close in age, I can go weeks without seeing a soul, and everyone seems fine. Now, with our local group, this virtually never happens except when I have a baby or they're all sick, but when it does, it is not a problem. My little boy may be another story as he gets older and longs to be around boys more often.
If I had to create a list off the top of my head of social goals for homeschooled kids I would say:
1. Reverence in Church
2. Cheerful obedience and loving respect for parents
3. Politeness toward young and old. ("Hello," "Goodbye," "Please," and "Thank you.")
3. A desire and ability to reach out and welcome newcomers into the group
4. Kindness, a pleasant disposition, and willingness to share
5. Kindness and respect for siblings
6. A desire to be with other children and the ability to form and maintain friendships
7. Respect for the property and feelings of others
8. Obedience toward the other mothers in the group (i.e., if someone else's mom says, "Get down from that fence!" the child gets down).
This is purely stream of consciousness and deserves so much more thought, but these are some biggies. I hope I didn't give the impression I think my children are socially perfect--not at all! It's just that I am happy with the way they are developing (and continue to develop and improve with time) and do not feel that hs'ing has put them at a social disadvantage.
BTW, Leonie, your points are so true--I couldn't agree with you more.
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Elizabeth
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Dear Sarah,
I think friends their own ages are highly over-rated  . I have a friend with six grown children who are all really lovely. She once said that if your children are "popular," then you worry. I've noticed that when my children have spent a lot of time with their peers outside the family (Camps, vacation Bible School, even a string of playdates) that we have to do some decompressing. They need to be reminded not to act to the lowest common denominator.
When they are home, playing mostly with each other, under my supervision, everyone is well aware of the family standards. And, those standards of behavior become habits, with each of them modelling and reminding for the others. They get into mischief, they squabble, sometimes even they throw punches. But it's all within the context of our family and so it is all filtered through the sieve of our values.We don't want them to grow up to act like ten-year-olds, so they don't spend hours a day immersed in ten-year-old culture.
A friend of mine commented once that all of life is like high school, with everyone clamoring to be popular and in the "in" groups. Her comment caught me off guard because I'd spent most of my adult life surrounded by devout Catholic women who were homeschooling moms. I didn't see that behavior.But I definitely saw it in the context to which she was referring. The sad thing about that adult behavior is that it rubs off on the kids. The moms worry so much about number of friends and fitting in and the round of birthday parties that they lose sight of the real goals in raising children, even the real goals in socialization (articulated so well by Alice). Just was we are Social Misfits, we are purposefully raising our children to be social misfits. And that's a good thing .
Here's a dramatic example:
Over Christmas, my 17 yos played in a tournament in Orlando. The team was in a hotel, "hanging out," and the dads were playing golf. The boys decided to go get beer and have a little party. My son wanted none of it. He had dad come get him, tipping my dh off in the process. DH let the other parents know and the party was over. This did not make my son popular.
At the first practice after they returned home, it was dark and one kid came up from behind and sucker punched my son in the jaw. He went down. Another kid restrained the puncher. Everyone else stood there dumbfounded. When my son returned home that night, he expected emails and IMS in support from his teammates. Sucker punching is very dangerous and my child's jaw was badly bruised. It's not the way you act when you are a team.The silence was deafening. Were they all afraid? Probably.
My son is the captain of the team. It was the mature, well-socialized adults who stepped in, offered support and handled the discipline. At a team meeeting with boys and parents, it was the adults who stood and applauded how my ds handled himself. And now, the boys are coming around.
Am I proud of the way he handled himself? Sure. But I would have expected nothing less. And I think he was able to do it because he's not preoccupied with popularity. Instead, he's focused on the goals. In this case, the goal was to play the best possible soccer in front of scouts and college coaches. Beer was completely counter to achieving that goal. He's not peer dependent because he didn't spend his childhood in a world of peers.
This is not to imply that there haven't been times when my kids have made the wrong choice. Unfortunately, there have. But our lifestyle affords us the ability to step in pretty quickly and our standard of behavior--of socialization--allows us to rectify the situation consistently. It's a frame of reference. It's not about being popular; it's about growing in wisdom.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mary G
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Wow, Elizabeth -- what a proud mama moment!
Peer pressure is not something that I want to expose my littles to after I see what a number it's done on my older two! And, whether I'm right or wrong, I firmly believe it was the artificial structure created by all kids of one age in one classroom.
I think it was Lissa who blogg'ed recently -- "when was the last time you went to a party or other soical event with a room full of same-age adults?
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Elizabeth
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Mary G. wrote:
Wow, Elizabeth -- what a proud mama moment!
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I can't begin to express how much it hurt to see his face for the last week. He was bruised and swollen and you could tell he was in pain every time he spoke or swallowed. It killed me to know that someone had deliberately physically harmed my child. I had some real "Mary moments" where I thought in a much different way about the flogging Jesus got. There is still such confusion in our world about who the good guys are...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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alicegunther
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Elizabeth wrote:
| It's not about being popular; it's about growing in wisdom. |
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Perfect, absolutely perfect.
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Elizabeth wrote:
I think friends their own ages are highly over-rated . I have a friend with six grown children who are all really lovely. She once said that if your children are "popular," then you worry. I've noticed that when my children have spent a lot of time with their peers outside the family (Camps, vacation Bible School, even a string of playdates) that we have to do some decompressing. They need to be reminded not to act to the lowest common denominator. |
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This is so true, and it is one of the reasons I really like homeschooling. I absolutely love my children's home educated friends. The older girls in our group (10, 11, 12 year olds) are so innocent and lovely. These girls are still children, not precocious teenagers, but they are perfectly mature. Most of them still play with dolls, yet they know how to keep an eye on a real baby as well! When we've spent lots of time with them, I do not feel that the kids are influenced negatively. We gain so much from their companionship.
This, sadly, is definitely *not* the case with some of their other peer groups. My children will often come home with shocking stories about language used and unacceptable behavior witnessed when they've been in other social situations. Luckily, because they are not dependent on these peer groups and do not spend a significant amount of time in them, the negative influence is limited (and perhaps even non-existent).
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Elizabeth
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alicegunther wrote:
This is so true, and it is one of the reasons I really like homeschooling. I absolutely love my children's home educated friends. The older girls in our group (10, 11, 12 year olds) are so innocent and lovely. These girls are still children, not precocious teenagers, but they are perfectly mature. Most of them still play with dolls, yet they know how to keep an eye on a real baby as well! When we've spent lots of time with them, I do not feel that the kids are influenced negatively. We gain so much from their companionship.
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I agree completely with your observations, Alice. And innocence preserved is so precious...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Sarah
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Ladies-
Thanks so much for the encouraging words.
I've had this weighing heavily on me.
The other day I overheard a conversation between ds9 & ds7 that kind of sparked this. Ds7 said he'd had a dream that he was doing something (I forget what, but not important)and all his friends were around him. (Here's what melted my heart). Ds9 said to him, "Who were those people in your dream? We don't have any friends." 
On the other hand, this doesn't appear to bother the kids at all, other than that one comment, which I think he meant as pure fact.
They are happy with each other, playing, laughing, fighting, making up again, sharing, giving, etc. Sometimes I'm amazed at the love they share and how they enjoy each other's company.
I watched ds9 the other day with cowboy costume on--bright red hat and all and I thought if he were in school, measuring himself by their standards, he would feel dumb in front of himself. Further, if he were seen by that crowd he would be made fun of for pretending, etc. (Not that he is immature-this same kid can serve a Tridentine High Mass, with reverence & maturity).
I remember feeling sort of ashamed when I was older, playing with dolls, knowing that my peers would think I was dorky.
Elizabeth,
I hope my boys show that type of strength some day.
Today I breathe a sigh of relief that they ARE doing well. Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'll come back to these at times of insecurity!
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Helen
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This is St. John Bosco’s resolution as a high school student:
“In my mind, I divided [my companions] into three classifications: the good, the indifferent, and the bad. The bad I would always and absolutely avoid as soon as I discovered their character. I would associate with the indifferent only out of courtesy and when necessity demanded. I would become friendly with the good, but only the best would become my intimate friends after they had proven themselves to be the best. This was my firm resolution. At first, since I did not know any of the boys, I resolved not to seek the acquaintance of any one until I could classify him as good, and meanwhile stay away from all occasion of sin. Nevertheless, my greatest struggle was against those boys whom I did not know well. I would have nothing to do with those who went around with long sad faces. As soon as I discovered them, I resolutely avoided them.”
This is taken from one of my favorite books, Don Bosco, a Spiritual Portrait by Edna Phelan.
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Sarah wrote:
I watched ds9 the other day with cowboy costume on--bright red hat and all and I thought if he were in school, measuring himself by their standards, he would feel dumb in front of himself. Further, if he were seen by that crowd he would be made fun of for pretending, etc. (Not that he is immature-this same kid can serve a Tridentine High Mass, with reverence & maturity).
I remember feeling sort of ashamed when I was older, playing with dolls, knowing that my peers would think I was dorky.
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I have felt this same way many times about my ds7. He immerses himself so completely in his interests, and still dresses up often. I have no doubt that this would be lost to him if he were in school. He would be teased and become ashamed.
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Leonie
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My just turned thirteen year old, Thomas, was dressed in his cape and Roman helmet that he made. I turned to the computer to reas this thread and it made me smile.
They are still young and, in homeschooling, are given the time to be themselves and to be kids.
And, yes, they do grow into surprising mature young adults, after years of playing and being young. It almost seems to happen overnight - I often look at Jonathon (16) and marvel at his social skills in groups. Where did he learn to be so friendly and inclusive? Three years ago he was still playing with Star Wars figures and was Star Wars obsessed!
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Willa
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I was thinking about this while shovelling out the deck yesterday (we have a foot of snow!).
Sarah, my first three children were born close together. They didn't seem to need "outside friends" that much because they had each other. Sure, sometimes they had their own particular friends over and that was fun for them, but the centre of their "social life" was each other.
Now, my younger kids were spaced wider apart. They have been a bit lonelier in different stages of their lives. For example, my almost 13yo has been spending a lot of time with his older siblings because he has made a leap in maturity. But that leaves my 10yo a bit lonely because his next sibling down is only 6, and developmentally delayed into the bargain, so he functions like a 4yo. The 6yo, that is. That leaves a huge gap between my bright 10yo and the next siblings down, and another huge gap (right now) between him and the "teens" in my house.
So outside friends have become more important to my 10yo, and I'm trying to figure out ways to meet his needs.
For you, with a new baby and siblings who play well together, I don't think the outside friend thing is of top importance. You can put it down near the bottom of your mental list and keep your eyes open and your heart in prayer. Then act, later, if you need to when things are not in transition. This is just my 10 cents worth.
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WJFR wrote:
I was thinking about this while shovelling out the deck yesterday (we have a foot of snow!). . . .
For you, with a new baby and siblings who play well together, I don't think the outside friend thing is of top importance. . . . This is just my 10 cents worth.
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SNOW!? Its supposed to be 65 degrees today.  We are having "grasshopper weather." (Remember in the Little House books when they had a mild winter then that plague of hoppers?) We had this a few years back and also had a plague of grasshoppers that attacked the country folk & farms. They ate the screen off people's windows and all! Sorry, didn't mean to get off the topic.
Thanks Willa!
I appreciate your comments and everyone's so much. This topic has been one of those"lay awake at night" things. I could only draw from my own childhood experiences with tons of neighbor kids, and school friends.
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PDyer
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So outside friends have become more important to my 10yo, and I'm trying to figure out ways to meet his needs.***
I have two children, ages 9 and 4, a son and then a daughter in that order. My son has one good friend seems content; my daughter, on the other hand, has much higher social needs. Our local homeschooling group doesn't have many children (one?) that age and doesn't provide many consistent social outlets.
I believe my daughter is going to need some type of "outside" social contact, but figuring out how much and with whom is a major concern for me as we move into more formal homeschooling years with her.
Patty
(did I ever introduce myself? I can't remember...)
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ALmom
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Patty,
We have a number of dc and there is a difference in need - but it is really hard to tell when they are real young what they might need at 10 or 13.
When we saw a need for more outside contact, we proceeded cautiously as the oldest dc seemed particularly vulnerable to peer pressure (it happens even in homeschooling and I think has a lot to do with child's temperment, lonliness and the degree to which someone outside the family supports your values. If mom and dad seem to be the only one who seem to pay attention to what they are doing and they feel excluded (even if it is because they aren't into the very things you don't want them to be), then I think they become more vulnerable. One mom really helped me see the need to help them past the vulnerability stage (even if they are lonely)before they are into a lot outside the home. Perhaps others are different here but I think some of it has to do with region - as dc are generally not as vulnerable if they have a really good supporting church community (even a pastor that takes time to reinforce what mom and dad have said). It gives them a sense of grounding. What is in the home is of course most important, but at some point certain dc really are especially vulnerable without support outside the home. If they are given a steady pressure to "join the world" both inside and outside the church - they are very, very vulnerable.
After talking to my oldest recently - kind of chatting about her very painful 12 and 13 yo years - which still hurt her but which she has survived and become a very lovely young 18 yo, I came away with a few things we should have done differently in our situation -
1. talked more about why she couldn't go to things - we did eventually but we were slow here and it was out of a desire to "not criticize" what we saw around us, so it was well intentioned but made her feel like we were a bit nutso. It would have helped her to know that she couldn't go to the teen group because we had happened upon an activity and spoken to one of the chaperones and the things done and lack of common sense were not acceptable to us. We were trying not to talk against those in charge. We should have stated the facts immediately and not waited until she had had to deal with rebellious feelings (to her credit she was always obedient)- the girls and boys were changing into Pjs and watching a R rated movie, nothing was published that I could see that let parents know the movie, etc, etc., the teen group was an open ended social event with no idea what topics the adults were going to try and discuss with them and based on what had been allowed or planned at other events we happened upon, we did have good reason to say No. She could have drawn her own conclusions about those in charge but knowing our reasons right away would have helped her a lot. I did come to this at some point (live and learn) and often she didn't even want to do the things when she realized what was going on.
2. been a little more relaxed about some things earlier - she was an oldest and a daughter so we were a bit overcautious at times. Your dd will have an older brother so that will help here. Our dd was 4 years older than nearest sibling so we were a bit slow to let her ride bike around the neighborhood etc. because she didn't have anyone to go with her.
3. made sure we were able to talk about new issues without other adults around so that we could really talk about why she wanted something and tried to help her see that she could change to more grown up dress without trying to imitate the folks she saw around us. Often the other adults would undermine us or encourage her in peer dependence so this was very hard for us. If she asked about something when another adult was around, I should have just postponed with a we'll talk about it together as soon as we have time for just the two of us - and then made that time right away. Instead, I'd give a sort of general reflection statement with the intent of really discussing something when we were alone - but then that was like permission granted for every other adult around to put in their 2 cents (those who wanted to help save our dc from us because we were "way too strict". Perhaps asking dd to bring up things when we were alone - or ask for an alone date.
4. I would have been more cautious and careful about getting involved in activities where there was a lot of exposure to worldly values or widely varying values. This is a tough one - because she needed an opportunity to make friends in a wider group but at the same time was extremely vulnerable. If we could have put it off and gotten her past the vulnerable stage - that would be ideal. She recently told me that her first activity, she was so lonely that she would have been best friends with whomever, regardless of their morals. We were very, very fortunate (her guardian angel, prayers, etc.) that that first friend was someone who did share our values - but she was in a group where the probability in terms of who was participating was opposite and it could just as easily have gone the other way.
Inviting one other family over for a joint activity was helpful. Organizing small groups to do something that your dc really loves, really helps. Participating in occassional activities according to the dc interest was helpful when they were older. (Determine atmosphere, supervision, activities, etc. so that it is appropriate for dc). I think helping find a support network for dc when they are younger helps. Some folks we know that don't have it in their own community, made the effort to travel to like minded people for vacations or short visits as the dc got to the middle school age.
We did a bunch of field trips, etc when ours were very little and I think all it did was burn mom out without real help to dc. In a crowd, they couldn't really make friends that well anyways when they were younger. If I had it to do over again, I would have been much more judicious or planned trips with a family or two that I thought my dc would relate well to. Sometimes, if dc doesn't jell with anyone in the smaller groupings, then you do have to seek wider range - but this usually happens with passions that they develop as they discover interests and talents. I think most folks need a sense of support whether they are outgoing or not but this is more a friendship thing with someone who really shares your values (and by the teen years, it is important that they have some reinforcement of values outside of the family).
At some point, driving for that moral support and opportunity for like minded friends - at least occassionally is a real help and worth the sacrifice involved, imo.
Janet
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PDyer
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Thanks Janet for your thoughts. I'm going to have a lot to think about, and a lot of time to think about it. :-)
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Good Social Skills?
