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Oney Jones
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| Posted: June 25 2007 at 2:39pm | IP Logged
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First of all, how would you define "will?" How would you explain it to a kid? When is it too late to start training the will?
Is anyone reading When Children Love to Learn by Elaine Cooper?
If you are, on page 94 "The Training of the Will"---That first paragraph has me stumped. Would you read it and help me think this through? I've read and re-read it; I have pondered it and come back to it; I have tried to write it out in my own words; I have tried to ignore it but it keeps nagging at my mind. I think I'm supposed to pay attention to this passage but it's bugging me because, in the words of a child, "I don't get it."
Here is what it says:
Some people go through life without many acts of deliberate will. They are amiable, easygoing, hedged in by favorable circumstances. And others go through life falling prey to their senses and slothfulness. Both kinds are unable to live active, vigorous lives because they lack the power of a rectified will. We see this weakness in the school setting in students who display habits of "seeming" rather than "being," who bear motivation out of self-interst or for the sake of appearance. They are children who desire to please at all costs, namely in expense of their true selves. ... The work before us as parents and educators is to make the child do what he lacks the power to compel himself to do, whether it be in expression of a higher motivation or in possessing a determining will in controlling passions and desires. The steady effort in training the will can be accomplished in the light of the following principle: Give children opportunities to choose appropriate to their growth and maturity.
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Martha
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| Posted: June 25 2007 at 3:45pm | IP Logged
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Hi Oney! I come here much more often than the FIAR board so I'll take a minute to elaborate on my thoughts. Please note, that I haven't read this particuliar book. (May have to get it now!)
I'm not sure I understand her point from just the excerpt? Here's my stab without reading the book.
I really think Andreola does a much better job of explain the forming and function of the will of a child.
The best I can do there is this:
You shouldn't make the mistake of thinking a child that "seems" to be a well-formed child is one based on how willing they are to make others happy or how willing they are to do what is necessary to get what they want.
A truely well-formed will resides in a child who does what is right simply because it is right, regardless of anything they may or may not personally get out of it.
Otherwise, the child is never truely developing their unique selves. They are simply reflections of the people and landscape around them.
And worse, they will be easily led away from righteousness to please others or to get what appears worthy to them to have.
Just my thoughts.
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Martha
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Oney Jones
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| Posted: June 25 2007 at 4:38pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
Hi Oney! I come here much more often than the FIAR...
I really think Andreola does a much better job of explain the forming and function of the will of a child.
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 Are you the Martha from the FIAR boards? 
I thought I'd post the question on a few message boards to get a larger scope of ideas and answers.
I read Andreola's chapter on shaping the will (my copy of ACMCompanion is a used copy and I was thrilled to see some notes in the margins and things highlighted~).
I agree with you there. I understand much better now. I also picked up my Levison books and read the bits about the Will there. It's starting to come together now.
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Oney Jones
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| Posted: June 25 2007 at 4:42pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
A truely well-formed will resides in a child who does what is right simply because it is right, regardless of anything they may or may not personally get out of it.
Otherwise, the child is never truely developing their unique selves. They are simply reflections of the people and landscape around them.
And worse, they will be easily led away from righteousness to please others or to get what appears worthy to them to have.
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So we want to train the child to make his choices based on the right thing to do (right thinking) instead of choosing something because it will be a good show, make others happy, make friends etc.
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Martha
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| Posted: June 25 2007 at 4:46pm | IP Logged
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Yeah, I'm her alright.
I really found that the concept of focusing on the will of the child spoke to me.
It's so much easier to get caught up in , are they minding, did they get a good grade, are they beign nice, and so on.
Not that those are bad things to want, but the will behind them does matter to some degree. It's important they have a conscience will for why they make certain choices and do things.
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Betsy
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| Posted: June 25 2007 at 5:02pm | IP Logged
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+JMJ+
I might be way off base here but what came to mind when I read this is a tid-bit that I picked up from the book "Raise Happy Children...Teach them Virtues!" by Mary Ann Budnik.
Somewhere in the book she talks about how just because a child acts "good" doesn't mean they possess virtue and like wise just because a child acts "bad" doesn't mean they possess little virtue. The point being that some children's personalities lead them to act virtuously with out much effort...like the child that is willing to share easily or wait without throwing a fit, etc. Because they do this easily, they may not actually exercise much virtue. But, another child whom it is very difficult to do virtuous deeds might posses more virtue in trying to do good and failing. GWIM?
SO, in applying that to this paragraph, I think you would need to look at the motives of why a child acted a certain way to know if their will was being trained or if they were doing it with an alterative motive (probably unconsciously).
Okay...I will stop the rambling...
Betsy
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Helen
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| Posted: June 25 2007 at 6:24pm | IP Logged
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Hi Oney,
Using the will is basically making a decision.
Even something as simple as taking a step.
I decide to take a step to the left or a step to the right.
As opposed to just going along with the flow, following the leader in front of you, or going after whims. (One can decide to follow the leader and do whatever he does and that would be an act of the will.)
The author sounds like she's pointing out that it is possible that a child (adult) doesn't necessarily exercise his will just because there is good behavior.
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Helen
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| Posted: June 26 2007 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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I wanted to add that virtue can only be cultivated by acts of the will.
Virtue is a strength of soul developed through habit.
Also the highest of the theological virtues, according to St. Paul is love. (Faith, hope and charity/love.) Only love remains in heaven. Faith and hope will not be needed in heaven.
Love is based in the will. It is not how we feel on a certain day. Love is what we do on a certain day. Love is a decision.
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Oney Jones
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| Posted: June 26 2007 at 9:26am | IP Logged
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For my kids, I didn't want a kid who always does what they are told immediately. I know that may raise a few eyebrows, but I want my kids to be able to express why they think something is wrong or unjust without fear, while at the same time recognize and choose submission to authority when it's ours or at church etc.
I need them to be abel to discern when something is wrong and not obey blindly just because an adult tells them to, e.g. a stranger telling them to get into a car. With that in mind,we spend a lot of time helping our kids to think through choices they make or are about to make and then let them live with the consequences.
For my kids, I didn't want a kid who always does what they are told immediately. I know that may raise a few eyebrows, but I want my kids to be able to express why they think something is wrong or unjust without fear, while at the same time recognize and choose submission to authority when it's ours or at church etc.
...
I think every family finds its path, and most parents do find out their child's unique personality and character once they learn how to shape it in a godly way. I have yet to do that really well with DS (12) -- right now he's pretty lazy and even rude at times, but I still want his desire to work hard and help us and love God to come from his heart, not in obedience to mine.
I copied the above quote from a reply on another message board where I posted the same question. I think this mom said something very profound and the more I think about it the more I like her answer, particularly this part: but I still want his desire to work hard and help us and love God to come from his heart, not in obedience to mine.
Don't you think that sums up what the Will is/does? Obedience or making the right choice because of the heart,the soul, the Holy Spirit wills it, and not because it looks good and makes the personal seem good.
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Martha
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| Posted: June 26 2007 at 10:12am | IP Logged
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I agree to a large extent with what that quote says. I sure don't want to obeying my sister or many others out in the world immediately!
My only quibble is this and specific to parents:
When a child immediately obeys a parent, even when thinking it unjust, this is important for them to do and prepares them for a life of faith in God for eternity.
Why? Because if we base obediance solely on what we reason to be just, we can easily reason outselves out of faith and trust. St. Augustine fell to this before the desperate tearful decades of prayers of his mother eventually converted his heart and then his mind.
We should indeed teach them to reason and be logical.
But we also have to be extremely careful to teach them that God can and should be immediately obeyed at all times, and this starts, imho, with the father and mother they are given in this world. There are yet many things that the soul must accept on faith alone.
Obediance to parents, like to God, is very different from obediance to teachers, neighbors, peers, and so forth. A parent, by the very nature of co-creation, is literaly set by God to lead children to Him. A child should be able to have complete and total trust and faith in their parents, and to God, to lead them safely.
In the instance of immediate obediance to parents and God, I do not think it is an issue of reasoning. I think it is an issue of loving trust and faith. When my children do not obey me, it is not genuinely due to their thinking it is unjust or to them being lazy. No, that's only what they think it is. When they do not obey me, this is a sign they do not trust in my care and judgement and guidance for them. This is why it hurts the mother's heart so deeply and angers her so fiercely.
This, to me, is the heart of why parenting is so very hard, but it is also why I try to insist on immediate obediance. They are allowed to have questions and opinions, but yet, I still demand immediate obediance. and no, I do not always get it. *sigh* I take heart that God doesn't always get it either.
I'm sure this didn't make a lick of sense, but there you have my rambling thoughts. 
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asplendidtime
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Thankyou for this discussion, it is really helpful to me. Struggling, struggling, struggling with willfulness in the older children, and then their attitudes seem to trickle down to our youngers. 
Thankyou for the help on perspective.
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nicole-amdg
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| Posted: June 26 2007 at 3:24pm | IP Logged
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l haven't seen much about giving the child opportunities to choose, so I thought I'd post this article. The story in the first few paragraphs is an example of helping a child exercise the will.
I like this story because it is an occasion in which the child is free from the influences of compulsion (punishment, rule or habit), and he denies himself and truly chooses the good. I think parents have to make these opportunities. That is, we have to be mindful enough about what's going on to offer them--they don't always come about naturally, without such compulsion. And we don't want to risk the sin of disobedience or clashes of will by giving children false choices in situations where parents really need a specific response or behavior from them.
Does this make any sense? Obedience in these situations is one facet of training the will, but actively choosing virtue, as in the story, is another. I think the active choice is neccesary to mature the will and make it strong--it even makes it easier to obey as a deliberate act of the will.
I'm still thinking this through, too. I see too much of myself in both of these descriptions:
Oney Jones wrote:
| Some people go through life without many acts of deliberate will. They are amiable, easygoing, hedged in by favorable circumstances. And others go through life falling prey to their senses and slothfulness. |
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...and I don't want my children to inherit that from me!
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Oney Jones
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Martha wrote:
But we also have to be extremely careful to teach them that God can and should be immediately obeyed at all times, and this starts, imho, with the father and mother they are given in this world. There are yet many things that the soul must accept on faith alone.
Obediance to parents, like to God, is very different from obediance to teachers, neighbors, peers, and so forth. A parent, by the very nature of co-creation, is literaly set by God to lead children to Him. A child should be able to have complete and total trust and faith in their parents, and to God, to lead them safely.
In the instance of immediate obediance to parents and God, I do not think it is an issue of reasoning. I think it is an issue of loving trust and faith. When my children do not obey me, it is not genuinely due to their thinking it is unjust or to them being lazy. No, that's only what they think it is. When they do not obey me, this is a sign they do not trust in my care and judgement and guidance for them. This is why it hurts the mother's heart so deeply and angers her so fiercely.
This, to me, is the heart of why parenting is so very hard, but it is also why I try to insist on immediate obediance. They are allowed to have questions and opinions, but yet, I still demand immediate obediance. and no, I do not always get it. *sigh* I take heart that God doesn't always get it either.
I'm sure this didn't make a lick of sense, but there you have my rambling thoughts. |
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Now wait, dear Martha. You don't give yourself enough credit! What you said makes perfect sense and I thank you so much for taking time to reply with your opinion.
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Oney Jones
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| Posted: June 26 2007 at 3:32pm | IP Logged
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Hi Nicole,
Thanks for another view of things.
Oney~ Off to ponder this some more.
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Topic: training the will of the child
