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mathmama
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| Posted: April 03 2009 at 8:23am | IP Logged
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I am embarrassed to admit that although I have researched alot about having and raising children I have not delved into the area of vaccines at all. With our first I got the standard ones at the standard times. There were some I chose not to get after consulting with our ped who is somewhat open-minded about the issue. Our first never had any serious issues from the vaccines except for a bit of crankiness. With our second I did the same thing. I refused any vaccines that were new since our first (like the one for the rotavirus) feeling that I didn't want to give her something so new. We now know that our second has many food allergies, some of which are severe. I sometimes wonder if these were caused in part by the vaccines. I have never researched it, because frankly I beat myself up enough with regards to what she is going through (I always wonder if I could have done something to prevent them) and at this time there is nothing I can do about the vaccines she has received. I have started to delay her vaccines. She was supposed to receive several at a visit in Dec but I only had her receive one and made an appt for her to receive another one last month. The appt was canceled by me because of a conflict and also because I don't want to introduce anything else to her right now as I am trying to get all her food allergies sorted out.
Now I am seriously considering just stopping with the vaccines altogether with her. I am also pg and am wondering if we should just not vax the new baby. And I guess our oldest will at some point need boosters, so I would just not get them as well.
Please give me the reasons why you don't vaccinate. Please don't take this next question the wrong way as I am not trying to judge, but rather just get info, do you just feel like you are relying on the fact that the majority of the population gets vaccinated? I have heard people claim that vaccines don't work, but how can the lower incidents of certain childhood diseases or the complete eradication of some other diseases (polio in this country and smallpox worldwide) be explained if not through vaccines.
I know I should read about this myself, but honestly right now I am up to here with reading stuff about food allergies and watching everything that goes in my and my nursling's mouths while trying to get proper nutrition to grow the baby I am carrying. Plus, I find it so hard to find sites that don't seem to just have a total bias one way or the other.
Thanks for reading and for sharing your thoughts.
Beth
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 03 2009 at 10:36am | IP Logged
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wow....this has the potential to really explode...
Starting with a disclaimer that these are my opinions and what we feel is right for our family.
we do delayed vax with some rejected outright.
we never give more than 1 at a time.
i have a daughter who gets very, very sick very easily, and is allergic to most medicines. i (donning flame-proof suit, but i am just being honest, and i *am* sorry if i offend, but...she asked how we felt...)i kind of resent when people just blanketly don't vax, but i do understand why they don't want to do so. it is scary. they are relying on other people taking risks. but, i think a lot has to do with the fact that our generation has not had to witness first hand the horrible diseases that the vax prevent. if these diseasese were still prevelent, and many, many children were dying, becoming crippled, going blind, having life-long health problems, every year, etc, we wouldn't even have these discussions like what goes on.
i know someone where I live now who chooses not to vax (not risky-health related, religiously motivated, just very, very crunchy...) and their son wants to work in the movie theater with food. but here you need certain vax to do so (hepatitis ones.) she feels they should be able to opt-out.
i don't.
if they don't want to vax - fine. but then i think that decision has consequences, and then you shouldn't expect special treatment. if you need a certain vax to get your food handlers card, and you don't want to vax - then you can't work with food, imo. no one is forcing you to work with food. but this mother is having a *fit* because her son can't get a food handlers card, and wants all the members of all the homeschool groups (where she is most likely to find other non-vaxers, i guess, to call and write and compain also.) i think that is just plain wrong. but i seem to be in the minority.
now, i also know some vax don't work for some people. my dh has had a measles vax about 8 different times - and still has no antibodies for it.
again, i apologize if i came across as offensive. i really hope i didn't, and that you all can hear that i am just sharing my opinion / pov.
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: April 03 2009 at 10:44am | IP Logged
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Beth,
I would recommend this book. It is easy to follow, thorough and objective. He lists the pros and cons for each vaccine, which is very helpful, as well as the prevalence and seriousness of the diseases. He also lists the ingredients and gives his opinion on what we should avoid.
I have straddled the vaccination fence for years and this book really helped me make informed decisions with which I am comfortable.
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 03 2009 at 10:53am | IP Logged
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Some of the anti-vaccine theory is that the decline in certain diseases happened A) with the invention of better sewage systems and a better understanding of how to stay clean and not spread disease through filth, and B)that diseases decline anyway when immunity spreads through a population.
Some of the vaccines with the worst reputation for reaction also have the lowest efficacy. Pertussis, for instance, seems to be quite ineffective. Another problem is that it is quite common to catch it even if one is vaccinated, but many who have it are not treated properly for it because medical professionals assume that if you've been vaccinated, that can't be it.
However, most people I know don't deny that they do work on some level. But, they do doubt that most healthy children died from them in the first place. It was typically the poor and undernourished who suffered complications from these diseases. For instance, most people get polio and only have cold symptoms. Furthermore, there is some speculation that some of the reported cases of paralytic polio were actually from DDT contamination from runoff into rivers and ponds that were swimming places. Everyone thought it was perfectly safe during the polio epidemic, and the symptoms are virtually identical.
Also, perhaps they work in the short term, but what are the long term effects? In the same way that overuse of antibiotics have created super bugs, are we actually causing more problems with certain vaccines by assuming a vaccine is a cure-all for everyone? Auto-immune diseases are on the rise, and yet there are few major studies being done on the possible link to the huge number of vaccines being required of children.
And take the chicken pox vaccine. Sure, there are isolated cases of its being severe, but did you know anyone personally who died of it? I didn't. Furthermore, we keep our immunity to chicken pox through adulthood by being exposed to it in young children. Its a tricky little virus, and if you aren't exposed and start to lose your immunity, it will re-emerge as shingles in order to spread itself anew. We are already seeing that the vaccine wears off quickly, but in vaccinating most children, we are reducing our own exposure to it. So, without vigilant boosters throughout our lives, there is an increased risk of an epidemic of shingles in years to come!
And decided that I could better live with having my child face a "natural" disease instead of some sort of disorder from a vaccine I forced them to have.
Each parent has to decide for themselves which risks they can handle (it is wrong to me that people are not properly informed of the risks of vaccines so they are at least making an informed decision--the risks that are clearly laid out in the inserts to the vaccines that one is supposed to be given but very, very rarely is even upon request!).
So, no, I don't believe I am just relying on everyone else.
I think that there are serious questions that no one in the mainstream medical profession wants to address. I think that the CDC and FDA have an agenda that is fed by major corporations who stand to lose a ton of money if people stopped vaccinating (or eating preservatives or margarine or any number of things that seem unhealthy but are ignored by most medical professionals, ime)--the more vaccines they can make mandatory, the more money they make.
Plus, the way most of the laws are written, one's objections must be "philosophical." So, there is no room for a parent to weigh risks of individual diseases and vaccines. Its an all or nothing sort of thing. So, our family chooses nothing being horrified at the choice of all. In that way, I suppose there are certain diseases that I hope my children are not exposed to and the fact that the population is vaccinated against it makes that possibility slight, but I might have chosen vaccination if picking and choosing were an option. I'm not sure since we have seen that option as viable.
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Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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teachingmyown
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Laura, don't worry, I don't have my flame thrower handy!  I think you have a good point about needing to live with the consequences of our choices. I don't think an exception should be made for that boy if he wants that job. There are other jobs. Also, I think the whole issue changes as a person gets older. With babies and toddlers, even young school age kids, we need to be much more vigilant about what goes in their bodies. But if my teenage children were to work in a field that had specific risks, such as health care, I would prefer they be vaccinated.
Dr Sears says in the book that I referenced, that if you decide not to vaccinate, it might be a good idea not to convince all your neighbors not to vaccinate as well. It is kind of tongue and cheek, but his point is that many vaccines are in the public interest and if everyone decided against it, some diseases would come back. I am not sure I agree, but I understand. Personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I said my child is too precious to pump with toxins, but it is alright for other children whose parents haven't done the research.
Honestly, I am angry with the medical establishment for their refusal to be forthcoming about the dangers of the components of vaccines, as well as possible side effects. If there is a doubt about safety or a possibility of greater harm, parents need to be informed. Instead, we are patted on the head by our pediatricians and told to listen to the experts.  (Actually, I have a great pediatrician but I have been to others with this condescending attitude.)
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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mathmama
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Thank you for the responses so far. I will not flame anyone for their opinions. This is a very personal decision that each family has to make and I am just curious as to how everyone arrived at their decision. Thanks for the book rec! And keep the responses coming.
Beth
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Martha
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I just wanted to say that you are not alone in changing or researching your opinion after having done the gammut with older chidlren. I didn't start to question until our 5th and 6th babies.
for me it's similiar to much of the previous poster's opinion.
I'm not anti-vax.
I'm anti-blanket vaccinations and anti- very young vaxing. Esp as many of the complications of the vax are very difficult to determine in a 6 week old baby and even harder to attribute to the vax because the baby is so young there's no benchmark for what was normal prior to the vax.
There are some vax that I will do around age 5 - 7 or as needed later. For example, it wouldn't bother me to get the hep vax for my 16 yr old. If I were traveling to an area with low medical care and high disease, I'd go for the appropriate vax such as diphthera.
And then there's some vax that I have zero use for like chicken pox. If my kids don't get it naturally, then I'll let them have the vax at about 15. But I'd much rather they catch it naturally younger.
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 03 2009 at 12:39pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
And then there's some vax that I have zero use for like chicken pox. If my kids don't get it naturally, then I'll let them have the vax at about 15. But I'd much rather they catch it naturally younger.
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Totally agreeing here, and even our Dr in AZ was not fond of the chicken pox vax. What is so annoying, is that now it is *so hard* for them to catch normally. Like you said, if mine don't catch it when they get to a certain age, I would go for the shot.
And - you can actually get shingles at any time after having the pox. the virus stays in you. my mother has had shingles quite a few times. they are horrible.
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: April 03 2009 at 12:40pm | IP Logged
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You can definitely pick and choose which vaccines you want your children to receive - but you have to be strong about it. :)
I delayed all of my son's - not wanting him to receive so many at once. And even with one, his skin broke out in a rash (hives) head to toe, everywhere (if you know what I mean) - and the doctor and the nurse practitioner would not even CONSIDER that it was the shot. My son's uncle on the paternal side had the same reaction to a MMR given as an adult. I'm not saying it's genetic, but he is the twin brother of my son's father AND it was the exact same reaction! If they would have even CONSIDERED it, then tossed out the idea based on other evidence, I would have been fine with it, but the whole experience made me very very thankful that I delayed everything - so at least I know it "could" have come from that one particular shot and we'll just be very prudent in the future.
With that said, I am also cautious about which lots the shots come from, seeing as to their origins (what is the culture grown on?), and have had to ask for them to ordered (or go to an alternate pediatrician who has it in stock).
If I have more children, we will delay even further, leaving out more (we will NOT do chicken pox until an older age, for example).
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CrunchyMom
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cactus mouse wrote:
| And - you can actually get shingles at any time after having the pox. the virus stays in you. my mother has had shingles quite a few times. they are horrible. |
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Yes, but I think that it is a sign that your immunity to chicken pox is waning--like you haven't been exposed to chicken pox as much to help maintain your immunity. You can catch chicken pox from someone with shingles as well. My understanding is that in not being exposed, the virus "thinks" that it is not present in the younger population and tries to expose in this secondary manner. So, the theory is that more people will get shingles more often because of the vaccine.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 03 2009 at 1:20pm | IP Logged
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they're already seeing a great many more young people, even children, coming down with shingles
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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folklaur
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CrunchyMom wrote:
cactus mouse wrote:
| And - you can actually get shingles at any time after having the pox. the virus stays in you. my mother has had shingles quite a few times. they are horrible. |
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Yes, but I think that it is a sign that your immunity to chicken pox is waning--like you haven't been exposed to chicken pox as much to help maintain your immunity. You can catch chicken pox from someone with shingles as well. My understanding is that in not being exposed, the virus "thinks" that it is not present in the younger population and tries to expose in this secondary manner. So, the theory is that more people will get shingles more often because of the vaccine. |
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I am not honestly sure that this is right. My mother gets shingles almost every time she is exposed to the pox, and also just sometimes for no apparent reason - and as a school bus driver, and a handicapped son who would go to an institutional like "school", etc - she was exposed a lot.
I don't doubt people will get shingles from the vax one bit. you (not *you* :) are injecting the virus that stays dormant right into someone. It is only logical that shingles would be an issue. But - not as many people get shingles, even after having the pox....again....i think *not* seeing people die, get sick, tends to influence the decisions of everybody.
Like, you said earlier, "did you ever know anyone who died from the pox? I didn't." Me, either, but if I was a mom who had a child who did, I would be much more likley to vax against it. And, my brother DID have one of the absolute worse cases of the pox that doctors had ever seen, luckily w/o secondary infections. I am sure if the vax had been available when I was little, my mother would have done it for me to try to protect me from what my brother had gone through with it.
just sayin'.
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folklaur
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JodieLyn wrote:
| they're already seeing a great many more young people, even children, coming down with shingles |
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like i said, this doesn't surprise me one bit, and it was what i had said to my Dr in AZ when he first mentioned the pox vax. he wasn't pushing it - in fact, he wasn't fond of it at all - but now AZ has made it "mandatory" for school, so he had to tell me about it, and my kids went to a PS run enrichment program. But we could opt-out easily, at least.
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donnalynn
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Hmmm...I guess I think that insisting on a Hep vaccine for food workers is a bit over the top - after a little research on how the different hep virus's are transmitted - and I think you'll see there is nothing that good old soap and water and gloves before the workers handle food couldn't prevent. (did I say that right or did I commit double negative??  ) Am I missing something? So why not install a sink right there before you enter the kitchen and insist everyone must wash hands before they enter?
I mean can you insist that workers be tested for Hep before they are hired? Can you deny them a job based on a chronic infection? A vaccine isn't going to help an already infected person.
I guess I am suspect of where the money goes....who makes the vaccines?...who is lining the pockets of the folks in Washington who pass the laws to insist on the vaccines? For me this is a part of the equation. And part of an overall distrust I have of how these things get implemented.
I worked as a secretary in a hospital ICU unit but I refused the Hep vaccine that they wanted everyone to receive - I wasn't involved in patient care and the closest I ever came to any bodily fluids was the collection tubes in bags that were placed on my desk. What I found out was that the regulation did not require that the vaccine be *received* by all the workers in the hospital but that it be *offered* to all workers. Big difference - yet I was pressured to receive the vaccine and I think the only reason I got away with it was because I was already on the job - not a new hire.
For me, I stopped the childhood vaccines when my family physician (who I truly loved and respected) couldn't answer what I thought was a pretty simple question about a combination shot they were switiching to. I guess I decided that physcians weren't really thinking about the implications of vaccines - they simply rely on what the pharmaceutical companies tell them.
I started to wonder why my breastfed, full term, healthy babies who had plenty of fresh air and would never see the inside of a daycare needed *all* these shots.
I started to question whether physicians could really know the possible effects of all these different vaccines on a young baby. So where they might test that a vaccine is "safe" - do they really know it is safe when combined with all the other vaccines? I resent that this is legislated and not a conversation between patient (or responsible parent) and caregiver.
I am not anti-vax - but I don't see a truly sane apporoach to this issue - I think we are making a similar mistake to the one that was made with antibiotics - overuse, over dependence.
So the girls have some - I never bought into the idea of Hep for infants - nor did I opt for the ROTO vaccine which WAS the one that was recalled shortly after I refused it  for my oldest.
My 3rd was born with a clubfoot and was later diagnosed with mild hypotonia at nine months - I didn't want vaccines to confuse any issues or possbily make things worse. He's had Tetanus.
My 4th (age 6)hasn't had any vaccines - besides a trip to see our family physician after he was born (the whole family had strep - he didn't) he has never been to the dr. - has never even had an antibiotic -he's never even met our new pediatricians (the family physician left private practice) that we've had for about 5 years now!
Tetanus shots where we live simply make sense - we frequent farms - large animals, rusty equipment abound...
But I've held off til age 7.
Anyway this is one of those topics that I could go on and on forever about...but I'll stop...  .
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mathmama
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Just stopping back to read the responses and to thank everyone for their honest answers! This is the sort of sane discussion I was hoping for 
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JodieLyn
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rusty equipment has nothing to do with tetnus the tetnus spores that may be in the ground around farms and never goes away do though. And even then it's only a risk with a wound that is closed off from air.. typically a punture wound (which rusty equipment laying around may make more likely )
I've seen some odd assumptions about tetnus.. it is a horrible disease.. but it's not as easy to get as it's gotten the reputation for.
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donnalynn
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JodieLyn wrote:
rusty equipment has nothing to do with tetnus the tetnus spores that may be in the ground around farms and never goes away do though. And even then it's only a risk with a wound that is closed off from air.. typically a punture wound (which rusty equipment laying around may make more likely )
I've seen some odd assumptions about tetnus.. it is a horrible disease.. but it's not as easy to get as it's gotten the reputation for. |
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Yes - I should have been more clear - I always thought the rust could increase the *risk* of an infection because if you were cut on something and a few tiny bits of rust flaked off in the wound it could hasten an environment for an infection to grow - does this make sense?
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JodieLyn
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yep I could see it being more likely to cause infection.. just not tetnus since tetnus is only caused by tetnus spores.
And yeah, I figured you knew that, just as I said, I've found a lot of misinformation and like to help that one stay clear. 
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folklaur
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donnalynn wrote:
and gloves before the workers handle food couldn't prevent. (did I say that right or did I commit double negative?? ) Am I missing something? So why not install a sink right there before you enter the kitchen and insist everyone must wash hands before they enter?
I mean can you insist that workers be tested for Hep before they are hired? Can you deny them a job based on a chronic infection? A vaccine isn't going to help an already infected person.
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I live in Vegas. An outbreak of food related Hep A could potentially have international impacts.
And - with all the internationals that come here also....yes, the Hep A, I think, is a good idea. Hep A is an acute - not chronic - illness.
They have to get boosters to renew your food handlers card.
(as a ridiculous aside, gloves are NOT required here to work with food. The fancy chefs don't want them, is the best I can come up with. Of course, if gloves aren't changed regularly, they aren't much better than bare hands anyway.
It is even harder to get a health card to work in body art (tattoos or piercings, for example), you have to:
~Be free of communicable diseases
~Be a minimum of eighteen years of age
~Have a minimum of six months experience or training
~Obtained a score of at least eighty percent on a written examination
~Be tested for Tuberculosis (TB) by skin test or chest x-ray
~Be immunized against Hepatitis A and B
~Possess current certification by the American Red Cross in Preventing Disease Transmission
so, they are strict about some things, yes. And employment can be denied. It's a right-to-work state anyway. They can deny employment for any reason, and fire you for any reason, too.
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JodieLyn
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Here's a couple other sites
http://www.cdc.gov I like getting info on the standard medical thoughts there.. they're usually not as emotional as the nazi-nurse telling you this is the only way to do it and emotionalizing things that you'd rather have clear numbers for.
http://www.cogforlife.org/ Children of God for Life has a button there on the left for Vaccine Sources so if you want to consider that, they list typical vaccines and which have an ethical alternatives.
http://www.nvic.org//Is probably the antithesis of the cdc but it also has a link for vaccination laws which will give you an idea of the exemptions available to you.. be sure to read about them.. One states religious exemption reads so that it has to be a tenet of the religion that you can prove you're holding to all tenets of.. while another reads as something hardly more than a strongly held opinion.
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4Real Forums : Our Lady of Good Remedy and Care
Topic: why don't you vaccinate??
