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folklaur
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| Posted: Nov 17 2007 at 3:41pm | IP Logged
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This isn't really about vaccines per se - much more so about parental choice and rights. Did you see this story?
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hopalenik
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| Posted: Nov 17 2007 at 4:08pm | IP Logged
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I am for vaccines but I saw this on ABC news and nearly blew a gasket!
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Nov 17 2007 at 4:17pm | IP Logged
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My county borders on this one. We're all waiting to see what's going to happen next.
I think Laura's right, it's really about who gets to decide what happens to children. No one has yet mentioned (in local news anyway) what might happen regarding homeschooled children.
This is just another step on the path to state control...I worry, because I'd like to be the one to choose medical care options for my children. So far no one seems to be challenging this issue in state court.
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juststartn
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| Posted: Nov 17 2007 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
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This is ridiculous. I've vax'd most of my dc...to a lesser/greater extent...but I've delayed the boys' vax's, other than the ones that they HAD to have in the hospital to be released....
I resent the implication that I am not capable of making sure that my dc have the medical care that they need...
Rachel
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aussieannie
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| Posted: Nov 17 2007 at 8:08pm | IP Logged
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My husband showed me this on the internet news the other night and we were in deep shock, we only hope that it doesn't come to that over here as well.
We do not vaccinate and do not because we have researched it thoroughly and feel for us it is the only we could ever go, according to our consciences. Others differ but feel they must follow theirs, which we respect... but to have the law do THAT, we are having our rights to make the best decisions for our children taken away!!
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vmalott
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 7:46am | IP Logged
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The thing is, the average parent out there is not even aware that just about every US state has laws that provide for exemptions from mandatory vaccination. Those exemptions generally fall under two headings: medical and religious. Each state has a different definition of what "religious exemption" means (some are as vague as a "philosophical objection").
Were any of these parents given this full disclosure prior to submitting their children to the mandatory vaccinations??? I wonder.
Valerie
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 7:52am | IP Logged
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Well...newspapers are reporting that those exemptions exist, but not whether the parents knew about them. On the Maryland vax form, you just sign under the religious exemption section...but I don't know if an official then contacts you to find out if your religion prohibits vaccinations.
Principals are over a barrel, too, because MD state law requires them to send unvaccinated students home unless the religious or medical exemption applies and is in the child's files, in writing. They have no choice but to enforce the law.
Having said that, I still feel this is a disturbing trend that undermines parents' rights.
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 8:42am | IP Logged
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It is also tricky in some states because even if you have religious or philosophical issues with vaccination and can legally refuse, in most cases, you have to be opposed to ALL vaccination. So, you aren't legally permitted to pick and choose which vaccines are worth the perceived risk.
So scary how many people think that the state knows better than parents!
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 9:56am | IP Logged
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I think there has been some misunderstanding about this news story, and of course the media itself has hyped it. The parents who chose to send their kids to public school knew that vaccinations were legally required, just like they knew that other documentation was legally required.
A good portion of the parents were justifiably angry that they had already had their kids immunized but the school board misplaced their paperwork. The majority of the ones who were in defiance of the law were probably just lazy about getting it done. I mean, if you are against immunizations, you have probably done a ton of research before making your decision. Something tells me that you would also make sure you knew how to obtain an exemption before sending your kid to school.
I understand that it is kind of on that line between the rights of the individual (parents in this case) and the good of the state, and that is a slippery slope. For those who are pro-vaccine, which is the majority of the population (whether correctly or not), choosing not to vaccinate is seen as not only risking the health of your own children but also endangering those who have not been vaccinated yet or are unable to be vaccinated.
And sometimes the state feels the need to cater to the lowest denominator of citizen and parent. I mean, why did almost every state have to pass car seat laws? It became pretty obvious that car seats helped save children's lives, yet I've known plenty of parents who don't buckle their kids in "because the kid doesn't like it". These are the kids that the laws are there to protect. Now I'm not saying that getting vaccinated is necessarily the same thing as putting your kid in a car seat, but in the eyes of the state it is.
I think there is a tendency for homeschoolers to be very paranoid about the government. Sometimes this is good because we just don't blindly obey everything and we are very aware of our rights. However, I think sometimes it lends us to view anything the government (national or local) does as wrong and a threat and sometimes extrapolate out to the worst case scenario. I just think that it is up to us as citizens to monitor the state and stand up when it does go too far, but not always assume that it will always goes too far.
And I agree that it is scary how many people think that the state knows better than all parents; of course, most of these same people were ones that were completely "schooled" into this mindset. That's one of many reasons that we homeschool. 
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folklaur
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 10:43am | IP Logged
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The reason it jumped out at me, was because when our youngest was little, and entering Kinder, we were told she HAD to have vaccines. We were young parents, and they told us they were MANDATORY, and we assumed mandatory meant mandatory . Of course, later we found out that it just isn't so.
I have spoken to many parents over the years, who have no idea that they are only "kinda mandatory".
I think that is one of the issues that I really take exception to.
And then to use - even as a scare tactic - a possible jail sentence (whether linked to truancy or not) is just so messed up. At least I think it is.
I really am not "paranoid about gov't." But I do think it is easy to get complacent - and then problems/issues can get bigger, slowly, with little notice.
that being said, I am all the way across the country, and I am sure the news report I read has its own spin. I just was kind of flabbergasted when I first saw it.
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 11:35am | IP Logged
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I do think some of the parents involved were lazy, and I am sure the PG County admin folks misplaced a lot of paperwork. Were I a ps parent, I would be very angry about having to resubmit things.
Just for info, no law can convince some parents to use car seats, booster seats and seatbelts. I know this from persona experience. I had to excuse myself from driving on my dd's Brownie field trips a few years ago because 1)none of the smaller girls whose parents weren't military had booster seats, as required by state law and 2) even the leader didn't make her girls wear seatbelts...totally against state and Girl Scout regulations.
I think when it comes to medical procedures, it's not that hard to imagine a worst case scenario. Witness all the HPV vaccine hype (for preteen girls)...I personally would like my dd (9) to have this vaccine a bit later, not now. I certainly don't want anyone except my dh and my dd's doctor to have a voice in this decision.
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aussieannie
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 12:18pm | IP Logged
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Barbara C wrote:
| And sometimes the state feels the need to cater to the lowest denominator of citizen and parent. I mean, why did almost every state have to pass car seat laws? It became pretty obvious that car seats helped save children's lives, yet I've known plenty of parents who don't buckle their kids in "because the kid doesn't like it". These are the kids that the laws are there to protect. Now I'm not saying that getting vaccinated is necessarily the same thing as putting your kid in a car seat, but in the eyes of the state it is. |
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It is never easy making comparisons, as often they never quite line up with the argument at hand. I wanted to mention that mandatory buckling of children would not be seen by anyone as extremely harmful to the child but those who reject vaccinations for medical reasons, do.
**Barbara, I know that your last paragraph states quite clearly your thoughts that we agree on totally.  I have only used your example given (of course you were playing 'devil's advocate' on behalf of the State with it anyway ) as a 'springboard' in my line of argument, as to what issues are really at stake when you fall into the category of 'objectors' and why. It helped in explaining more fully, why any threat of jail and confiscation of children, is completely unacceptable.**
Parents who don't vaccinate for medical reasons do so with as much vigour and belief as those who see vaccination as a must have, to protect the health of their child. Conscientious objectors understand vaccinations to have serious short and long-term health ramifications to the child that are just not acceptable to the parent that loves them.
I am a mercury 'survivor' having mercury applied to my skin with a product that was deemed 'safe' in the 80's but now has by law, had the mercury removed. When I know that mercury is present in vaccines and is then injected into the body, going past normal body defence mechanisms then I become greatly, greatly concerned. Taking mercury out does not take away my concerns either. Something similar is put in its place to fulfill the mercury's previous function or there are other toxins in the vaccine that also give me cause for concern. That is just the tip of my medical concerns. (I read recently that 'mercury free' vaccines are testing up with mercury still present..  )
Parents should not be asked to harm their children if they truly believe they would be. It is not a case of parents thinking they just don't work (though I believe that they don't) but that they are harmless - not at all. These are parents who believe the vaccines are seriously dangerous.
In Australia, government parenting allowances that all parents receive, are used as the 'stick and carrot' for parents who don't have a problem with vaccinations but just don't care to follow through.
For people like me, who wish to receive a certain portion of my gov allowance, we go to the doctor and sign an exemption form. This is considerable trouble and a stress, especially if you encounter a doctor, who when by law has to inform you of 'your risks in refusing', gives that information with great personal distain towards you.
This was introduced over a decade ago and it bumped compliance up from 50% to over 95% (which the doctors who believe in this stuff, will tell you is enough for 'herd immunity.')
Interestingly enough I was reading in the newspaper recently about studies that are now showing that certain childhood diseases/health problems have skyrocketed in the last decade in Australia alone for reasons unknown.
Well I have my opinions on what those 'unknown' reasons may be...
While some are saying that this USA action is being applied to those who have not gotten an exemption, will it stay that way if the State believes and acts so passionately? That is why I would feel very, very uneasy if living with a law such as that...
Jail time says you have done something wrong/bad. Denying gov money is an encouragement for parents to be in tune with the State's personal thoughts on an issue.
I would say that the Australian method (which I don't support, naturally..) is a far more gentler approach that is not perceived as a threat to a parent's right the way this situation is.
I mean, a parent can live without the money, but most likely will choose not to, hence the inititative fullfils it's objective but you can't parent your children when you are in jail.
As a family we stand strongly by our convictions. Recently when my husband received a redundancy from the telecommunications business, we would have loved for him to study and become a nurse working with the elderly. But this year Australia introduced a law that states you cannot study in the healthcare field unless you receive the HepB shot (3 of them) - it blew our plans totally apart - there was no way my husband would receive that shot and risk his life and health.
So very interesting, considering my husband was an orderly in a hospital 20 years ago and they pressured him to have the shots then, since he was working in theatre, but when he talked to the doctors and nurses themselves, the vast majority had not had then due to the safety issues connected with them!
A home schooling lady I know of in Australia, is now completely on Gov assistance because her husband who worked in the health field received the HepB shots and then went on to immediately develop Lupus (a very nasty autoimmune disease) and now cannot work at all to support the family. They have made the connection and are devastated - these were risks we would not take, personally.
Of course the religious reasons are also an important right to uphold. The use of aborted fetal cells is a major concern for many Catholic/christian parents.
I have written a lot and that is not normal for me at present getting so close to birth and focusing my mind elsewhere, but I've written this during one of those annoying 'pregnancy insomnia' moments in the very early hours of the morning... 
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 4:54pm | IP Logged
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I'm not trying to get caught up in the whole vaccination debate. I totally understand why some people have their various concerns about vaccinations. And I think there should be exemptions for those who have made a reasoned decision that goes against the grain of what the government sees as the public's best interest, no matter what the issue. Ideally, though, the government is supposed to look out for the best interests of the majority and especially those who have no one else looking out for them. (Although you wouldn't know it in this country in recent years.)
And I'm thinking that if any of the parents at the courthouse strongly objected to vaccinations and had been thwarted about getting an exemption then one of them would have gotten a lawyer involved. Most people I know who are anti-vaccination have very strong feelings about this. Like Annie, they would not go against their convictions lightly, kind of like with homeschooling.
Oh, and by the way there is another article out there by the National Vaccination Information Center or something describing and comparing the scene at the courthouse to Nazi-ism. There were policemen at the courthouse who had dogs, and they weren't allowing the media or anti-vaccination groups into the courthouse. The officials also weren't telling each family that came in for vaccinations how to become exempt or what all of the vaccination risks are (which you would not expect them to do in the first place). Of course, they have slanted their description to describe a scene out of a horror movie.
And I guess, I'm just saying things get spun like crazy through the media. I guess I see it as a simple matter of the state enforcing its own laws. Now if the people not complying feel that the law is unjust then they have an obligation to stand up and say so. You don't hear any of the protest, other than for the inconvenience factor, coming from the parents of that county, though. In all this that I've been hearing (from other homeschooling-related groups, too) is that the protest is coming from the outside. There has not been a single story of someone standing up for their right not to vaccinate or complaining about how impossible it was to get an exemption.
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 5:56pm | IP Logged
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Barbara,
You're right...the parents are complaining about paperwork/shot cards that have been misplaced, sometimes several times, by the school system employees. No one is saying they don't believe in vaccinations, at least in the MD papers I read.
I think it's the idea that jail time would get these parents to do their paperwork that bugs people...most counties suspend the students (equally inconvenient for working parents). No one has suggested a middle ground (fines, etc.) to get parents to comply, nor has anyone suggested ways to get the school system employees of paperwork-losing fame to do their jobs properly the first time.
There has to be some way that's less draconian and less harmful to families for PG Co. to enforce state law than sending parents to jail.
My worry is...if jail is an OK threat over vaccinations, who's to stop other MD judges from threatening jail for other things? (Late homeschooling paperwork?) Not trying to add fuel to the fire, just adding a reasonably local perspective. Judicial precedent is what it is.
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folklaur
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 6:13pm | IP Logged
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Barbara C. wrote:
I'm not trying to get caught up in the whole vaccination debate.
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No, no, me either! That isn't why I posted it to begin with, and why I tried to title it so that wouldn't be the focus. My whole thing was the shock of the idea of them threatening jail in this situation.
guitarnan wrote:
There has to be some way that's less draconian and less harmful to families for PG Co. to enforce state law than sending parents to jail.
My worry is...if jail is an OK threat over vaccinations, who's to stop other MD judges from threatening jail for other things? (Late homeschooling paperwork?) Not trying to add fuel to the fire, just adding a reasonably local perspective. Judicial precedent is what it is. |
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Yes, this is what I was thinking (well, not exactly, but this type of thing...)
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4Real Forums : Our Lady of Good Remedy and Care
Topic: Whether you agree w/ vaccines or not...
