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Donna Marie
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| Posted: Sept 13 2013 at 10:03pm | IP Logged
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I know it has come up a few times in the past...this type of discussion between a "classical education" and CM. I am having a little trouble searching and I have a few questions lurking in the back of my mind...
I have been wondering about a CM highschool education and I am distracted by those talking about a "classical education" for those highschool years.
It is SO hard for me facing the end of homeschooling for several of my children. I have to wonder if we cover enough sometimes and at other times I am so awed by what we have done. Does this questioning ever really stop...LOL!! 
Anyhow, a friend was talking with me about her experiences immersing her children in this type of classical education where one book builds on another and forms them for adulthood Norms and Nobility
As I look at this list I see some books we have read, some I have never heard of and others that I don't know if I ever would have chosen unless someone handed me the book to read myself. So many choices! I am always asking myself...how do I know how much is enough when it comes to literature and logic and forming the mind and the heart for adulthood. I hope I am making sense  
Any takers?? What do you think??
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Donna Marie from NJ
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Finding Elegant Simplicity
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JennGM
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| Posted: Sept 13 2013 at 10:47pm | IP Logged
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Donna,
Here are two threads I have in my Favorites with great conversations on this subject:
Charlotte Mason vs. Classical
CM vs. Classical
Jen Mack's points are fabulous. CM is not a Versus Classical. It really incorporates the Classical approach, so you aren't losing anything.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Sept 14 2013 at 12:30am | IP Logged
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What Jenn said. We have had to move to science textbooks for our daughter (she intends to be a science major in college) but we still do a lot of reading, hands-on learning, trips to places where she can learn about the animals she loves, etc. It's a bit more difficult because of her (dance!) schedule, but we manage.
Re: Norms and Nobility, my daughter can't read that much in a school year; her eyes don't focus properly, which makes reading a chore and a half. Even so, we are covering many of the works cited on that booklist, and we've been blessed with opportunities for Shakespeare workshops and other wonderful experiences through co-ops and homeschool groups large and small. There are many ways to present these important ideas.
It seems to me that you are asking the age-old question, "How do I know that I did enough, and did it the right way?" Remember that you know your children better than any outside teacher ever could; your answer is in front of you every day. It's important to read good literature and to be able to understand it, explain our Constitutional rights, to defend our Holy Faith - yes! of course! - but how you get there is best tailored to your children's learning styles, interests and needs. Methodology isn't as important.
I think that's what drew me to CM in the first place - well, all those books did it, too! - but having someone say that children should learn outdoors as well as indoors, that our natural world can teach our children some of the most important truths of life, that copywork is more than just a handwriting exercise - and in an era when many people can't read cursive, our children will be very thankful for that copywork - all of those things played and still play to my children's strengths.
It's totally normal and okay to wonder, as the high school years approach, arrive and rapidly fade away, whether you did it right. Do a bit of nature study on your own; watch your children as they interact with others, spend time outdoors and talk about things they've read. Step back and observe, in the CM tradition. Take a photo or sketch your child. You'll see something that you knew, but didn't realize.
I have only two children, one in the last few semesters of college and one getting ready for ACTs and college tours. I worry a lot about them both. But...when I step back and observe, I realize that they are both exactly where I wanted them to be when we began this journey 12 years ago. They love Our Lord and our Holy Faith. They want to be good citizens and they try to help others. They are caring and compassionate. They know more about their faith than their traditionally-schooled counterparts do. They do well in classes graded by others. (Okay, DS needs motivation to do well, and he is working to overcome that issue!)
The world tells us that our children "have" to score well, go to specific colleges (and I have to say that I think there's a second level of "have to" in this regard when it comes to Catholic college students, and I find it frustrating - we can't afford expensive Catholic colleges and I'm guessing we're not the only ones!), read certain books, etc. It's beyond daunting.
When I worry about those things, I try very hard to step back into nature study mode and see my children as others do and to listen when people say nice things about them.
No, the questioning never stops, but you have to find your way to a place of peace. I found mine as I have described. No, my children aren't perfect. They are just regular young people trying to get to Heaven...but knowing they are trying to get there, and seeing that for myself, is, in the end, enough for me.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Sept 14 2013 at 7:58am | IP Logged
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You might like this article by Cindy Rollins. At the end, you can find a link to her blog which is also a wealth of information.
I find the article I linked to be the most thorough, concise, and accurate comparison I've seen comparing the two. It is also found on the Circe Institute website, which I find to be one of the best resources on a truly Classical education.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JennGM
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| Posted: Sept 14 2013 at 8:28am | IP Logged
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My friend who is immersed in CIRCE and classical is always quoting Andrew Kern who says Charlotte Mason is more classical than most classical educators.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Family in Feast and Feria
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Martha
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| Posted: Sept 14 2013 at 9:22am | IP Logged
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I would agree. Many "classical" programs look an awful lot like traditional school work-text based programs.
For that matter, so do many "CM" programs.
This question came up on another board and I am C&P my response there to here. 'Cause I'm lazy like that. :)
I see most books about classical methods are 90% booklist, so it's hard not to see the lists as the essence of the books, rather than see a philosophy to the paradigms.
I think both are:
Living books based programs.
Have a solid writing paradigm when properly used. (I think many people don't use either right and then say it didn't work.)
Focus on engaging the student. Though they have common and uncommon traits of doing so, neither is intended to be a hand it to the kid and walk away style of education. Lots of teacher discussion and guidance is presumed at least until high school and even then to an extent.
They are both okay with putting off maths. WTM might not be, but if you read The Trivium, it was common. It's accepted that before age 8-10 is common life maths focused, not formal text and rote based. Which brings me to my other diversion, by whose definition of classical are we basing our discussion? TWTM is certainly not the only parameter of the subject.
How they possibly differ:
Number of subjects - CM has many subjects broken into manageable 15-20 minute bits over the week. Classical tends to hyper focus on 3-4.
What is covered - CM covers both local/current history and world concurrently as well geography. Classical focuses on one period in a cycle pattern of 3-4 years
Number of books - CM often has a very long booklist. Classical has a more concentrated list, but still more than many tradition school programs.
CM tends to focus not just on the academics of educating the child, but their entire person. I think classical can do that too, but none of the books on the subject discuss it. They focus on the list and have child do X, but the common difficulties and how to overcome them are not discussed in any of the books.
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Martha
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Classical Education Vs CM?
