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Waverley
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I read this article by Elizabeth Foss at her blog responding to Anthroposophy/Waldorf and Catholic Homeschooling by Susan Brinkmann. I was wondering how everyone here felt about the original article, Elizabeth's response, and using some of the Waldorf ideas/products in your home.
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Waverley
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MaryM
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Thank you for the question, Waverley. The moderators and managers of this board have already been discerning and praying regarding this topic for some time. As we seek to prayerfully discern we have been looking to the Church and her guidance. We encourage others here to do the same and are including some links as a possible starting point:
Jesus Christ, The Bearer of the Water of Life
A Closer Look at the New Age Movement
Encyclical on Christian Education
Please look for more information from us concerning Waldorf in the coming weeks.
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Helen
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Waverley wrote:
| I read this article by Elizabeth Foss at her blog. I was wondering how everyone here felt about the original article, Elizabeth's response. |
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To sum up my reaction to both articles, Susan’s article at Living His Life Abundantly discusses the "means" of using Waldorf/Rudolf Steiner written materials while Elizabeth writes about the "ends" -- items and practices which might be found in a Waldorf school such as water colors or chunky crayons.
There is no doubt that R. Steiner influences the Waldorf school of education. Some may argue to the degree of his involvement in the schools, but if someone begins a school, it is presumably to spread a new idea -- one which is not found elsewhere.
Steiner’s written material has been condemned by the Church. This means that the Church issues a warning that the uneducated may be led astray by reading his written material. When deciding to use Waldorf written materials or curriculum, one should keep in mind the caution issued by the Church.
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CrunchyMom
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To echo Helen a bit, I wouldn't lump ideas/products together. I can't see that Steiner has a monopoly on art, beauty, or rhythms, and there are plenty of other sources for those things including the rich heritage of the Church. So, I think part of the issue becomes semantics when those items are labeled as "Waldorf."
I think that I would personally concur with the original article when speaking of materials created by Waldorf educators and delving into the ideas that are uniquely Waldorf. The Church documents linked above warn against the teachings of Steiner specifically, and from my reading on the subject, I do not feel it is possible to separate his educational methods from his New Age philosophies.
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Martha
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I truely see both sides.
I tend towards avoiding what is not clearly catholic. Honestly it's usually not a very holy act but rather lazy of me. I only have so much time to discern or money to invest. It is simply easier to avoid the problem.
However there IS a difference here. Several of them actually.
The article talks about double speak and parents not being in the know about what teachers are telling students. Well we aren't schools. We are catholic parents teaching our own dc. Rest assured that when I encourage my kids to use their imagination to make a star - there is absolutely zero sorcery involved.
Then there's the nuts and bolts questions Elizabeth brings to the table. Materials in and if themselves are not good or bad.
I have no interest in Steiner himself or his pseudo-religion.
I will come back to this later. Right now I'm putting dinner on the table. I have had quite a mixed reaction over the last few years to this topic.
I'm eager to discuss this logicly and lovingly with other catholic moms.
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Martha
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Oh I should offer disclosure here I guess.
I hope to be using oak meadow for several dc next year.
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CrunchyMom
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Martha wrote:
| Materials in and if themselves are not good or bad. |
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I think you will need to define clearly the word materials for the purposes of this discussion.
For instance, water colors are not good or bad.
A book on using water colors that incorporates new age philosophies, I'm not so sure...
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donnalynn
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teachingmyown
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I think the article that Elizabeth responded to missed the point of the question, which was incorporating elements of a Waldorf education in the Catholic homeschool. Rather she addressed the issue of parents unwittingly trusting a Waldorf school which on the surface (and which very possibly really is) just an gentle, artistic alternative to mainstream education. She did not address the use of Waldorf-ish elements in the homeschool.
Obviously, as Catholics, we need to stay away from the "philosophy" of Steiner, and Waldorf schools that actually embrace the philosophy. And as Lindsay said, there is a difference between using the materials and techniques and using those materials and techniques for the purposes that Steiner intended them.
Donna summed it up nicely, as did Elizabeth. I can use the tools, water colors, fairy stories, songs and rhythms and make them my own without bringing in any of Steiner's philosophy into them.
Just my $.02!
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donnalynn wrote:
| Wet-on-wet water color painting is also not uniquely Waldorf. Neither are greek myths...or knitting...or geometric designs..or gardening. |
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Then why call it Waldorf? Why go there? Of course watercolors are fine, beeswax etc. but Steiner's beliefs under-gird the entire philosophy that is the Waldorf "method" so should we really be recommending books, resources and links that espouse or even just dabble in Anthroposophy? Should we be giving our money to companies that support Anthroposophical Societies?
This is where the heart of it is for me. Holy Mother Church has said this is dangerous, don't go there. Steiner has been mentioned by name --that's all I need to hear.
Gentle rhythms, beautiful art, none of that belongs exclusively to Waldorf but context is everything and in the context of Waldorf those things take on new meaning.
Donnalyn, your explanation of of the wet on wet is lovely so why link that with Waldorf at all? This is what I just cannot understand.
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MicheleQ wrote:
donnalynn wrote:
| Wet-on-wet water color painting is also not uniquely Waldorf. Neither are greek myths...or knitting...or geometric designs..or gardening. |
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Then why call it Waldorf? Why go there? ...
why link that with Waldorf at all? This is what I just cannot understand. |
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I agree with this 100%.
Why do we continue to call them Waldorf and perpetuate the myth that these good and beautiful techniques and materials somehow "belong" to Steiner/Waldorf?
I personally find Steiner and his entire philosophy repugnant, so I refuse to give him credit for art techniques and materials he simply co-opted from others. Wet on wet, beeswax, fairy stories, rhythms...he did not invent these things. He merely bent them to use in his wacko philosophy. Why do we continue let his practitioners claim them as their own? As Catholic educators we need to remember that beauty is our domain, too. We need to reclaim it!
I wish we could just drop the whole "Waldorf" label and call these things what they are: Paint. Wax. Paper. Nature. Simple as that.
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Helen
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Waverly wrote:
| I was wondering how everyone here felt about …using some of the Waldorf ideas/products in your home. |
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Waverly, I can share with you the way I made my decision. I would probably call my interpretation conservative.
I began my personal investigation into the question of whether or not to use Waldorf ideas in my home by beginning with the Church’s condemnation of theosophy. I heard people quoting this condemnation when the Waldorf question arose. I didn’t see the connection at first but it was later that I realized Waldorf schools are the outgrowth of the philosophy started by Rudolf Steiner called Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy is in the same league as the theosophists.
It took me awhile to make sure that the condemnation of 1919 of Theosophy also included Rudolf Steiner’s Anthroposphy. Fr. Hardon confirmed this condemnation for me. As I said earlier, condemned means that the Church has issued a warning that the uneducated may be led astray by reading his written material because it contains theological errors.
Next, I had to determine whether or not Steiner’s written material and ideas had anything to do with the Waldorf School of education. I’ve read enough to say that if a school is called Waldorf, it is influenced by Rudolf Steiner’s anthroposophy. (Founder of Oak Meadow) The debate is to what extent.
Back to the Church’s statement…
It was issued by the Holy Office when Pope Benedict XV was Pope.
The wording of the condemnation is expressed like this:
wrote:
| Can the doctrines which today men call theosophical, be reconciled with Catholic doctrine, and hence is it lawful to enroll in theosophical societies, take part in their gatherings, read their books, periodicals, journals, writings? ....Negative in omnibus (In the negative in everything). (DS 3648;ASS 11 (1919), p. 317) |
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Denziger #2189
I thought this was a pretty sweeping censure of the written materials of the theosophists and the Anthroposophists. I believe the church is saying that theological error pervades the writings of the anthroposophists.
But what does that mean for me today?
ETA from a later post:
I wanted to make sure that I understood the meaning of the Church's condemnation of 1919. I contacted a former professor of mine. He is a priest, has a Ph.D. and is also a canon lawyer. He told me that the condemnation is part of the natural law and so its meaning does not change over time. It's a dogmatic statment.
I also looked at Jesus Christ Bearer of the Water of Life , a recent document issued by the Vatican on the New Age and zeroed in on the part where Steiner is mentioned:
wrote:
| It is well to be aware that the doctrine of the Christ spread in New Age circles is inspired by the theosophical teachings of Helena Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner's anthroposophy and Alice Bailey's “Arcane School”. Their contemporary followers are not only promoting their ideas now, but also working with New Agers to develop a completely new understanding of reality, a doctrine known by some observers as “New Age truth”. |
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This more modern document points my attention to the “contemporary followers” of Steiner. I define a “contemporary follower” as those who willingly call themselves Anthroposophists, Waldorf schools, Waldorf curriculum, and anyone who says, “I’ve been greatly influenced by the writings of R. Steiner.”
My conclusion is that because of the theological error I will not use the written materials put forward by Steiner or his "contemporary followers" in deference to the Church’s 1919 condemnation and the New Age document.
Now, what if I happen to see something that looks beautiful, natural and good, such as watercolors and I come across it outside of a Waldorf written source but it is also used in a Waldorf school? I may choose to use watercolor paint but I will turn to another source for interpreting its use. I will not use a Waldorf curriculum, catalogue, or book source to use watercolors. Instead, I will look to more traditional methods of water colors such as the art of Beatrix Potter, Edith Holden or as we did in our homeschool, I hired a water color teacher to give my children six lessons.
With all of this said, I personally won't say that it is carte blanche on the practices and physical materials found in Waldorf schools. The Church has also offered her guidance on the physical materials and practices used in these Waldorf/New age Schools,
From Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life
wrote:
| On the one hand, it is clear that many New Age practices seem to those involved in them not to raise doctrinal questions; but, at the same time, it is undeniable that these practices themselves communicate, even if only indirectly, a mentality which can influence thinking and inspire a very particular vision of reality. |
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In view of the condemnation of 1919, , I have decided that I would like to see a Waldorf common practice/physical material corroborated in another source before I implement it in my homeschool.
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Martha
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Well I for one would be thrilled to see a catholic oak meadow type curriculum provider.
But it doesn't exist.
And the exact same caution should logicly apply to Protestant materials - and there is little doubt that those materials/providers/founders have led Catholics astray.
Yet for most catholic home schoolers it is considered okay to ignore the source and use their materials that do not contain a problem. Abeka math for one example. History texts. Art and music lessons.
Personally I found less conflict with my faith in the Oak Meadow 3 syllabus than in Abeka's 3rd grade program.
I detest Steiner. I'm not interested in him. Or bringing him into my home. I feel the same about the founders of many other educations methods.
I'm honestly very conflicted about this. In the past I've had a very hard line on this. But there is not a catholic OM-ish provider. My dh (not a catholic) says that almost every catholic model of education uses the Socratic method to some degree, yet Socrates was in many ways far more "out there" in his teachings and beliefs than Steiner. (Not that either of us consider Steiner on par with Socrates!!). Far more Catholics are led astray by protestant views/materials, but I bet nearly everyone on this board as something from a Protestant curriculum
provider on their shelves.
Why can we say that Abeka math or science is okay, (for example, one could easily say SL or CLE or many others) but Oak Meadow art is not? Why can we give the presumption that we can sift for the good in one but not the other? (And I actually do not presume that of myself. I often presume that I cannot.) Why can we talk about the pros/cons of abeka science but can only talk about Steiner with OM?
If there's a solid issue with the actual syllabus or materials, I'd like to discuss it without being defensive or offending.
Honestly sorting my feelings on this as I follow the discussion. I'm a very logical and practical person, so I'm trying to piece together this puzzle of what is okay and what is skirting the edge and what is jumping off the deep end and why any of it is or is not acceptable at times.
Clicking post before I chicken out!
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Helen
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Martha wrote:
And the exact same caution should logicly apply to Protestant materials
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I can see what you're trying to say Martha.
But there is an official condemnation of the written materials of anthroposophy. It is your personal belief that this should apply to Protestant sources but this is not stated in the official condemnation.
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guitarnan
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I thought the original question was about Waldorf and anthroposophy - they are both inextricably tied to Steiner.
I would argue that there's actually a big difference between Protestant beliefs and Steiner's (for lack of a better word) philosophy. Steiner believed in karma, reincarnation, racial inferiority based on skin color, and punishment by illness for misdeeds in past lives. These things are not Christian at all. Protestant denominations, while not Catholic, share many beliefs with Catholicism, particularly faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior and one life on Earth for mankind, with the goal of (with God's grace) achieving Heaven.
So, in my personal opinion, there is a big difference between anthroposophy and Protestantism, and between curricula based on each of these.
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Helen
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Waverley wrote:
| How do use some of the Waldorf ideas/products in your home. |
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The original question pertains to using Waldorf ideas/products in your home. We need to stick to this question.
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Ave Maria!
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Mary G
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Helen wrote:
The original question pertains to using Waldorf ideas/products in your home. We need to stick to this question.
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OK, so does anyone know of a non-Waldorf/Steiner resource for the good things we want to use in our homes -- the beeswax, silks, craft books, paints, etc? I would LOVE to find a Catholic source for these ... or at least a non-Waldorf ... is there one?
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guitarnan
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There's another thread going about Dick Blick's great art supplies...
Dick Blick favorites
Paints and watercolor paper are on the list...
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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MicheleQ
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Helen wrote:
Waverley wrote:
| How do use some of the Waldorf ideas/products in your home. |
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The original question pertains to using Waldorf ideas/products in your home. We need to stick to this question.
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I do believe the point of the original article was not that the items themselves are wrong but that we could very well stray into New Age territory while reading Waldorf books & lesson plans. This seems to be a sticking point for many with the idea being put forth that all that is needed are some caveats. But the Church tells us that "it is undeniable that these practices themselves communicate, even if only indirectly, a mentality which can influence thinking and inspire a very particular vision of reality." (emphasis mine)
Is it not better to err on the side of caution? I consider myself to be a pretty well educated Catholic and yet I will not read these things or use them because I do regard that caution as valid and important.
It is so easy for things to infiltrate our thinking in little ways we don't even realize. My husband and I were just talking about this yesterday in the context of our RCIA program. We start at the beginning, the VERY beginning because even though most of the people that come to us are from a Christian background we have found that a lot of wrong things have infiltrated their thinking about God. Very often we find many strange and erroneous ideas that need to be corrected. It's not that they're "bad" people but their thinking has been influenced and misdirected and it is something we need to constantly be wary of as Christians. We must always check ourselves, make sure we are still one the right path, that our thinking hasn't strayed.
This is hard enough to do in the culture we live in but even more difficult if we expose ourselves to things that are known to be erroneous and I'm sorry but we are fooling ourselves if we think Steiner's error hasn't infiltrated these things called Waldorf. It has indeed and that's why we need to stay away.
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Michele Quigley
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MicheleQ
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MicheleQ wrote:
Is it not better to err on the side of caution? I consider myself to be a pretty well educated Catholic and yet I will not read these things or use them because I do regard that caution as valid and important.
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Just to clarify, the "these things" I am speaking of are Waldorf books, websites and lesson plans. I ceratinly use watercolors and all that.
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Michele Quigley
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
Topic Closed)
