| Author | |
Connections
Forum Pro
Joined: June 24 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: June 23 2009 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Some things I am thinking about and would appreciate your thoughts.
Will children work on academic endeavors that are a challenge for them if they are able to follow their bliss and study only those things that interest them?
Do children need goals to motivate them?
Will children stay away from academic endeavors that they perceive as challenging, demanding, etc. if they are able to follow their bliss?
One argument in favor of child-led learning is that children are motivated to work on things that interest them. They will both learn and retain more when they enjoy the subject matter. Also, the argument is that these children will work through any challenges they face in the materials they encounter because they are driven by their interests.
On the other hand, a child decides when to "drop" a course of study. The argument is that the child determines when he has learned enough about the subject and he is in the best position to determine that his interest/the project is "over."
I am left wondering: How do we, as parents, know that our child has not given up the project or interest because it has become too difficult, challenging, time consuming, etc.?
Perhaps it is the challenge and the demands of the interest/project that lead the child to conclude that he has learned enough.
And, is it OK to drop an academic endeavor because it is too challenging or demanding? Who is in the best position to make that decision- parent or child?
Thoughts?
_______________
Blessings,
Tracey
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2009
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1520
|
| Posted: June 23 2009 at 11:22pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi Tracey,
I'm sorry I don't have any thoughts for you but I'm most interested in what others might have to say. I will just be starting HS this Fall and honestly I'm not sure there's ANYTHING that my son (just turned 9) would "study" if left to his own bliss. He likes to run around and play or sneak in tv when he can but anytime he mentions something I think he would want to explore further I'll ask "oh, would you like to learn more about that?" And he'll say "nah".
I'm anxiously hoping others will provide insight and answers to your questions.
__________________
Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: June 24 2009 at 12:04am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Connections wrote:
I am left wondering: How do we, as parents, know that our child has not given up the project or interest because it has become too difficult, challenging, time consuming, etc.? |
|
|
Just because a child may 'give up' a project or interest there is nothing to say they will not come back to it later after a rest period. How often do we 'drop' a passion; a craft trail, cooking mania etc, diverge to another trail and come back later, maybe even two years later?
Not to say that there is not benefit in making sure that there are times that projects are brought to a neat conclusion.
Connections wrote:
| And, is it OK to drop an academic endeavor because it is too challenging or demanding? Who is in the best position to make that decision- parent or child? |
|
|
Of course its okay  Many times I have found it best to drop an area; rest, and then try later, sometimes weeks, months or even years. Many have found this best with teaching reading, learning maths concepts etc.
Sometimes the parent is in the best position, we need to be cued in to listen to our children.
Great discussion 
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MarilynW
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4275
|
| Posted: June 24 2009 at 6:04am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Too sleepy to comment much. Just to say I am reading John Taylor Gatto's "Weapons of Mass Instruction" - I think you would really like it Erin - sort of pertinent to this discussion. I am really really enjoying it - he looks at education in a whole different way. I think this book is even better than his earlier ones possibly.
__________________
Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Sarah M
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 06 2008
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1423
|
| Posted: June 24 2009 at 5:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh, this is just the kind of discussion that I LOVE!  I only have a wee bit of time, but I'm going to jump in with some thoughts, and come back later to read everyone else's responses.
My children are all still young. I have no evidence with which to prove my theories. That's my disclaimer. 
Connections wrote:
| Do children need goals to motivate them? |
|
|
I don't think so. My daughter, for example, picks buckets full of raspberries, not because she's made a goal to pick a certain amount, but because she's motivated by the activity itself. This is an activity she enjoys, of course. For other activities that may be less enjoyable (writing essays, doing math, etc-- when she gets older, that is), I would think that goals set by her and not by me would be more meaningful. If I make a goal for her to finish a math course by the end of the year, the only motivation that goal offers her is making mom happy. If she sets a goal to finish a certain level of math (so that she can get into college and pursue a career of her choice), then she is motivated by her own goal- not mine.
I wonder if more goals could be set by parents and children together, instead of one or the other independently...?
Quote:
Will children stay away from academic endeavors that they perceive as challenging, demanding, etc. if they are able to follow their bliss? |
|
|
John Holt, Sandra Dodd, and other unschoolers would say (I think) that students will not stay away from challenging or demanding work if it is a means to their own goals. If my child wants to get into college, then she has to achieve proficiency at a high level of math, science, etc. So even though those topics are hard, they are meaningful to her.
My gut feeling is that children naturally do not avoid hard/challenging work. It is when they are bribed to do hard/challenging work in a "schooly" way that they try to take the easiest route.
Quote:
And, is it OK to drop an academic endeavor because it is too challenging or demanding? Who is in the best position to make that decision- parent or child? |
|
|
Why not? How many times does an average college student change majors? Isn't it a good thing that we are not all required to follow through with the first major we chose in school? When I was in college, I switched from Theater to Education to Social Work to Nutrition and back to Education. Theater was too demanding of my time and energy- I knew that someday I wanted to start a family. I dropped it. Nutrition was far more scientific than I wanted to pursue. So I dropped that, too. But not because I was lazy- just because my interests/needs changed, and I changed my plan to reflect that.
As an adult, I don't avoid difficult/challenging work. I am free to choose activities and books that are meaningful to me, and then I pursue them voraciously. If someone told me that I have to take a Physics class next month because they think I should know that kind of thing, I probably would do the least amount of work possible in order to pass. That information would not be meaningful to me.
This can't work across the board, I'm sure. I would think that (most?) children would avoid math if given the opportunity. Curious to hear what others say about this. (Willa, are you reading this? What do you think about this in particular?)
I wonder if we can approach this unschooly/project-based learning from a team approach? Instead of letting the child take the full reigns and make these crucial decisions of what to pursue and what to drop, and instead of us dictating a learning plan to them (like a traditional school does), we team up with our children, set goals together, and figure out what the best way is to get there....?
I'm pondering this more. And I'm sorry for all the run-on sentences, but I gotta run for now!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: June 24 2009 at 7:27pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Interesting questions.
I do think children will work hard on challenging material because I've seen it happen in my home. And not just a few times, either. From the 2yo who concentrates for hours on a sandbox construction project to a 7yo with learning disabilities spelling her way (as best she can)through a grocery shopping list, to a 13yo learning knots for a merit badge, to a 16yo memorizing the rules of the road to pass a drivers exam.
I've also seen my dc drop a challenging subject only to pick it up again later.
And I've seen them drop subjects altogether due to lack of interest.
All of these things happen and all of them are ok with me.
As for goals: Goals are funny things. They come and they go. We achieve them, we change them, we drop them. In the end, they are only as good as the value we place in them. For instance, I may have the goal of learning French before a summer trip to Quebec, and start off all gangbusters. But later, as I learn more about what it actually means to learn French, my goal may change in certain ways (like deciding I only really need to learn a few key phrases to get around just fine) or I may decide it is unrealistic and drop it entirely.
Is that a bad thing? Should I be held to my goal even though it no longer serves me? Do I need a lesson in "finishing up" or is my time better served moving on and learning something else more relevant? I suppose it depends. Have I learned to "finish up" in other areas of my life, or is this really a skill I need to focus on because I never finish anything? No easy answer there. But I do know that forcing someone to finish something after it has become irrelevant, just for the sake of finishing, rarely leads to a love of the subject.
I do have more to say but need to get dinner on the table. I hope to revisit later.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: June 24 2009 at 8:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
These are some heavy duty questions!!! You always make me think, Tracey!!!
So...assuming we're talking about project-based learning here from the context of your questions and the link to the Reggio thread in your original post...
Connections wrote:
| Will children work on academic endeavors that are a challenge for them if they are able to follow their bliss and study only those things that interest them? |
|
|
Do you mean will children naturally choose for themselves academic subjects that are challenging for that particular child if they are allowed to follow their own lead in learning? ...like if a child doesn't naturally enjoy math and is challenged to understand concepts yet readily and eagerly pursues science or history passions?
hmmmmmm....well, it might require some creativity on my part, perhaps a unique, attractive, or more gentle way of offering the challenging work. So, in the example, perhaps more hands-on work with less endless repetition would be appealing to the child. I suppose I'd see my role as observing the child to see how that child enjoys learning, where natural talents and abilities lie, and try to offer/re-introduce the challenging academic endeavor in a way that is more attractive - not in a manipulative, underhanded sort of way but in a way that invites investigation. Of course, I might have missed the point of this question entirely! If I did, sorry!
Connections wrote:
| Do children need goals to motivate them? |
|
|
I think it depends - some children may be very motivated by a goal whereas some children need beauty to motivate them...beautiful ideas, beautiful possibilities, beautiful experiences.
Again, it would be a method of observing a child and watching to see what that child responds to, and sometimes different situations motivate children in different ways. For example, on the ball field my son is very goal motivated - he's focused! But, that same technique does not work with learning - **impose** a goal and he self destructs. He finds his motivation in figuring something out, so he will sit with a mechanism or gear or whatever for long periods of time because there is this desire to understand and know. Beauty for him lies in building and engineering a thing. He's motivated by the idea!
So, I guess the answer to this question would be - it depends on the child - some may thrive with a known goal, while others are more inspired and motivated by the beauty of an idea. With goal being the focus, the motivation is probably proportionally relational to how much the child values that goal.
Connections wrote:
| Will children stay away from academic endeavors that they perceive as challenging, demanding, etc. if they are able to follow their bliss? |
|
|
No, I have observed the opposite in my home.
Connections wrote:
| I am left wondering: How do we, as parents, know that our child has not given up the project or interest because it has become too difficult, challenging, time consuming, etc.? |
|
|
I think it is fine to step away for a child. If they naturally sense that the project is moving into an abstract area that frustrates them, or the actual work of the project is just too difficult, or a desire or motivation changes then it is appropriate to let go and redirect. If a project is difficult and we force them to "stick with it" their reaction will be one of unmistakeable frustration and angst.
I do think there is room for communication here between parent and child...is there a particular problem or detail that the parent can assist with - a different book, a new approach, an explanation of a concept...would a short break in order to contemplate the project or re-think it be in order? In other words, if a child all of a sudden wants to halt progress my reaction would be one of quiet-why? Not demanding why, but can I help you-why?
Connections wrote:
| And, is it OK to drop an academic endeavor because it is too challenging or demanding? Who is in the best position to make that decision- parent or child? |
|
|
I certainly think so and have no problem doing so. I think this is a decision that can be reached mutually - it need not be a case of either parent or child dictating (unless we're talking about a very young child and then the parent observes and makes a decision about what is right). If the child is acting out of frustration and angst and efforts have been made to understand why with the end result being that the endeavor is beyond the child in some way, I put it away and save it for later.
These are just my observations...I'm DEFINITELY open to being educated by someone wiser!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 24 2009 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mackfam wrote:
Connections wrote:
| And, is it OK to drop an academic endeavor because it is too challenging or demanding? Who is in the best position to make that decision- parent or child? |
|
|
I certainly think so and have no problem doing so. I think this is a decision that can be reached mutually - it need not be a case of either parent or child dictating (unless we're talking about a very young child and then the parent observes and makes a decision about what is right). If the child is acting out of frustration and angst and efforts have been made to understand why with the end result being that the endeavor is beyond the child in some way, I put it away and save it for later. |
|
|
Another thing you can do, I've found, is try something that builds towards similar goals but that isn't so painful to the child. So if you think your kid needs practice in math facts (say) but he absolutely hates writing out problems, he could do matching flashcards or play a game where you say math facts to proceed etc.
Or even just leave the math facts and work on math puzzles --- etc.
Wish I had more time -- fascinating thread but we have visitors today from N CA -- Chari and kids! 
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Child-led Learning/Motivation
