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BrendaPeter
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I've read some John Holt books lately & TJed resonated with me a bit, however, when I made our day less structured, the amount of idleness really increased. My oldest actually became somewhat "depressed" and asked for structure and direction.
So, how do unschoolers deal with idleness?
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Cay Gibson
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What an excellent question, Brenda.
My lop-sided experience with this is...
1) realize that many things society has led us to believe are "idleness" are, in fact, a person's own way of:
- dealing with things
- contemplating life
- making decisions
- planning future projects
2) if your oldest has asked for structure and direction, then give it to him.
Unschooling is about following the child's lead, not sitting idly by and watching our children grow depressed.
Unschooling should be a joyful initiative of self-development and self-processing.
Unschooling is trusting the child enough to grow while supplying an inspiring, motivational, stimulating environment for him in which to grow.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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BrendaPeter
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Hi Cay,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I totally agree that children do need time simply to think & process. The idleness I mentioned is the unhealthy kind, when you start looking for trouble. In the St. John Bosco book about his philosophy of education, he is adamant about not letting the boys at his school engage in idleness.
I would love to be able to understand how unschooling works in a practical way. The premise of TJed is that you don't push at all, i.e. "Inspire not require". When I look back at our little experiment, I see that my boys (13 & 14) were not inspired much at all. They both have interests but not super strong ones. Left to his own devices, my oldest ds would read his favorite book, "The Book of Lists", all day long. The only way for them to read good books is for me to require it of them. I required my 13-year-old to read "The Fellowship of the Rings" & he's really enjoying it!! On his own, he would not pick it up.
Don't get me wrong, it was a very worthwhile experiment. I learned that we always have to deal with the effects of original sin, particularly in children, and how important it is to have accountability. Just having other Catholic friends who are trying to become saints helps me stay "in line". I also learned how important it is to be self-disciplined and I see how having a structured academic plan can help our children achieve that.
I'd love to read anyone's comments even if they are contrary as I'm truly trying to figure this out.
Thank you!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Willa
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I had trouble with my own idleness and went back to some structure for that reason. I couldn't get motivated to share learning with my kids without a "plan" and some requires.
Unschooling did help a lot as a detox. I was getting caught up in trying to do things like other people, and now that is not nearly as much of a trap -- if something isn't working for us, I feel a lot more freedom to try something else... because when I was unschooling totally, the kids still learned.
I agree with what Cay says, that unschooling ought to be richer than formal schooling -- the mom stays active in her kids' lives but just in a different way, not outcome-based. I tend to be very bookish so I had to realize that spontaneous activity and enrichment just weren't going to happen spontaneously. For me, it is MUCH easier to sit down and do math with a kid than it is to offer to play chess or take them on a field trip or just sit around and hang out with them.
So I guess even now that I am unschooling more, it isn't just going with the flow... I still have to plan and strew and be present in the moment and interested, which are true disciplines for me.
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Willa
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BrendaPeter
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Cay Gibson wrote:
2) if your oldest has asked for structure and direction, then give it to him.
Unschooling is about following the child's lead, not sitting idly by and watching our children grow depressed.
Unschooling should be a joyful initiative of self-development and self-processing.
Unschooling is trusting the child enough to grow while supplying an inspiring, motivational, stimulating environment for him in which to grow.
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My oldest didn't really ask for structure but I sensed that he was frustrated by the lack of structure. We have never been soooo structured that he would have missed it but he really did not like "being in the lead". He has a very laid-back personality which I think had alot to do with it.
I think the last quote really confuses me - i.e. "trusting your child enough to grow". I think reading Maria Montessori, John Holt, Oliver deMille & St. John Bosco taught me alot about respecting my children. I definitely needed to work on that area, however, I also saw that they are still children & I found that mine were not really equipped to grow without plenty of guidance & direction on my end.
I'm not really sure what "an inspiring, motivational, stimulating environment" really is. We have a ton of books & we're at the library a bunch so our boys had access to pretty much any book they wanted. They also play alot of sports with their dad & are very active. My dh & I both talked with them frequently about their future and asked them what their interests are. We have plenty of extended family that we visit & a large group of Catholic homeschooling friends. What else could we have done to provide a more stimulating environment?
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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Willa wrote:
| I still have to plan and strew and be present in the moment and interested, which are true disciplines for me. |
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So very true. I'm seeing how my own personal lack of discipline has been a big part of the problem of a lack of self-discipline in my own children. As my one friend says, "everything you do matters".
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Cay Gibson
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BrendaPeter wrote:
Hi Cay,
The idleness I mentioned is the unhealthy kind, when you start looking for trouble. In the St. John Bosco book about his philosophy of education, he is adamant about not letting the boys at his school engage in idleness.
The premise of TJed is that you don't push at all, i.e. "Inspire not require". When I look back at our little experiment, I see that my boys (13 & 14) were not inspired much at all. |
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I'm no unschooling expert, Brenda. I'll leave that to Leonie and ThJ.  If I had to categorize our schooling, I'd have to go with eclectic. But I do love discussion of unschooling because more days than not, our family falls into this category.
If I don't classify these days as unschooling and embrace them and observe (and make note of) the learnings from them, then I would be pulling my hair out and putting my children back in school.
We have far too many days that don't go according to plan.
Far too many days that have far too many interruptions.
Far too many days that life gets in the way.
I chose to not let a minute of it go to waste. I chose to count it all as learning.
So, to address your wonderful questions...
BrendaPeter wrote:
I think the last quote really confuses me - i.e. "trusting your child enough to grow".
...they are still children & I found that mine were not really equipped to grow without plenty of guidance & direction on my end. |
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I agree with this.
A long time ago our deacon was questioning the upbringing of children in today's world. He said too many parents make the excuse that their children are "just being kids" and let them be instead of correcting them and training them to be responsible adults. As he said, "You can't be a child all your life. Our childhood years are the training ground for our adulthood."
Someone out there is quoted as saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Unschooling doesn't mean Un-parenting."
JOhn Holt repeatedly tells us to trust our child. That's where I get the "idea" of trusting your child to "grow". Your child's brain will grow and develop and...yes, learn.
Of course, he can learn the "wrong" things just as easily as the "right" things. That's where your role comes into play. Your role is very important.
Trust your child's God-given abilities of curiosity, natural law, and the capacity of the brain to learn.
Your role is of utmost importance. Parents have to be involved. Look at the demise of our nation because, as Mother Teresa said, "the mother is so little in the home." (again, paraphrasing)
It's not easy. So many hsing mothers (myself included) prefer to bask in our homes and enjoy the domestic arts. But we are called to oversee the development, happiness, and well-being of these people God has blessed us with. They deserve whatever we are capable of giving them.
Please notice I said "whatever we are capable of giving". This can mean different things to different families and lifestyles.
Hsing calls for us to stretch and bend and...sometimes...perform somersaults. 
BrendaPeter wrote:
I'm not really sure what "an inspiring, motivational, stimulating environment" really is. We have a ton of books & we're at the library a bunch so our boys had access to pretty much any book they wanted. They also play alot of sports with their dad & are very active.
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I dread saying this because I am a huge pro-book proponent and that's how I, personally, learn best. But in schooling five children I've come to realize that books are not always the answer to every child's learning.
Rather than a library, we gave my oldest ds a shop.
Rather than our dining room table, we gave my oldest dd an institutional school.
Rather than a book, we gave my middle child a computer.
My second dd is like me. I give her books. Lots and lots of books.
The youngest child is still an art form.
In hsing, this is where I look to Montessori and her writings and work for inspiration in creating an "inspiring, motivational, stimulating environment."
The girls and I cook and bake almost on a continuous cycle...day in and day out.
We have an art supply closet.
We have a game closet.
We have a science shelf.
We do co-op one day a week.
We have membership at the Children's Museum.
I make sure they have lots of cheap entertainment for outside playtime.
I am committed to this lifestyle, as I am sure you are. To make it invigorating, we have to exert ourselves past our comfort zone, past our tolerance level, past our own desires. I'm not saying it's easy. It's true work for the teacher-mother. But I owe my children this. I committed myself to hsing them and, when they were born, I promised them the moon.
I can't give them the moon but I can offer them my time, my love, my nurturing, my home, and the world outside my door.
You mention sports. St. John Bosco writes of the importance of sports and activity for boys. My children have always played rec sports. My girls continued with dance but my 15 yr old ds gave up organized sports years ago. I saw him getting into this "idle time" dilemmi. His father and grandparents worried about how much time he spent indoors.
Then two years ago one of our hsing dads signed-up our hs group for an organized basketball and soccer team with the state Christian Sports Coalition. We play throughout the state with other hsing teams as well as other Christian private school teams.
This brought my ds out of his shell in a huge way and has offered him a focus on working out, training, and learning about nutrition. The socialization/comradery aspect is something I could only dream of with my oldest ds in our early days of hsing. There was no sports team outside of the rec center where most of the children went to public school.
This group effort requires travel time and trips. He's headed this afternoon to Baton Rouge for a weekend tournament. His dad will go meet him when he gets out of work today.
I can't go because the girls have 4-H workshop at the college tomorrow morning then a couple hours at the Children's Museum.
We've been on the soccer field (games) or basketball (practice) everyday this week. Is it worth it? For this one child, a noticable introvert, it is. It's been a rewarding experience for him and a tremendous blessing to our family.
The weekly co-op that I had such a phobia of has turned into our hugest blessing this year, not only for our family but for our Catholic hsing community at large.
God has offered us the opportunities and opened many doors. I would much rather have shut the doors and basked in my seclusion. But not all my children are like I am. I have to meet God and His graces halfway.
And I still suspect I have a far easier job than if I had to work outside the home. I truly, really, truly, really LOVE THIS LIFESTYLE. 
While I typed this the girls have set up their own "classroom" behind the sofa. Chelsea has Greek Myth papers printed out and she's doing these, science, and history with Annie. They have written a script and have been acting that out as well.
Do I sometimes have my doubts about our unschooling days? Certainly! We just had an "unschooling" day this month that I felt compelled to blog about to assure myself, more than anyone, that we had not wasted learning opportunities in that day that did not go as planned.
Here is a sampling of summertime when unschooling can be embraced at its peak.
And here is my overall concept of unschooling, for whatever it's worth. 
I have so much more I could write but I need to get off the computer. It's another busy afternoon.
And I'm sorry for the length and rambling nature of this post.  The morning has truly gotten away from us. 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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JodieLyn
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A simple way to look at it might be to take a particular thing.. let's say math.. since I did these things
Requiring:
You could require your kids to sit and do math on paper.
Inspiring:
You could get their interest by doing mental math in the car as a game. Asking them math questions. And generally making it part of your life (at least with the younger grades)
And unschooling can look structured. Why deny your kids a math workbook if that's what they want to have? and have been asking for
And sometimes the lazies get us all and telling the kids that they need to work in their mathbook isn't going to destroy unschooling.
My kids will pull out math for fun even when they're required to do some. And often once they start they do multiple pages, not just the absolute minimum.
I think the thing is that they are kids.. and so even though you can get their interest, sometimes you also have to be the motivation.
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Cay Gibson
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Dear Brenda,
I'm back.
As I drove Garrett to catch his ride I feared that my lengthy post might hinder your questions more than answer them.
I was glad to see Jodie's reply:
JodieLyn wrote:
And unschooling can look structured. |
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This is so true. I'm going to focus a bit on my 15-yr-old son who sounds a lot like your oldest and who suffered a case of idle-itist as well. 
I have often, on this forum, praised Teaching Textbooks for saving our math program. This is another gem I wish I had had when my oldest and I were floundering through hsing.
Garrett's day is structured as such:
Math---Teaching Textbook
Two chapters of assigned reading
History study---Seton
Geography study---Abeka
Economics/Politics/Government---seriously behind in these subjects
Essays---the goal is one essay paper a week; we're seriously behind in this as well
Monday Co-op:
LA History---a gumbo of resources
Grammar---Warriner's
Literature---The Iliad & Oyssesy
I might be missing a few things I've thrown onto his lap but these subjects are the spine. I find that if we work in the morning, the rest of the day my children are happy to find things to do on their own.
My 15-yr-old spends the rest of his day watching the news, bouncing and shooting the basketball, reading the newspaper, riding his bike to the local aquatic/rec center, irritating his sisters, and...what any noteworthy teenager does...listening to music and talking on the phone/Internet/etc. 
Also, having structured assignments are a little like being sick...you don't appreciate feeling well unless you've been sick. Likewise, you don't appreciate your freedom unless you've been chained to a chair.
This is where my "unschooling" mentality gets sniffed at, and I really don't want to get sniffed at, and I really do admire unscholers who can teach without any structure.
I am too much a "middle-of-the-road" kind of gal to believe that either way is completely perfect.
If your child is not having "healthy" idle time and he prefers structure, then give it to him.
Our children really do want to please us and they want to live up to our expectations. Really. Expect more out of them. They will try to live up to our expectations. They don't always succeed but, then, neither do we. Expect more from your child and accept what he gives.
Don't call your teaching or your day "unschooling". Just look for those unschooling moments. It's rather fun to make note of them.
Here's a quote I'd like to end with...food for thought:
" 'Nothing ever happens here' was the lament of all three of my children as they grew up in our small rural college town in Pennsylvania. When I'd disagree, it was as a father trying to encourage them not to acquiesce to the laziness of not paying attention. But now that they have grown and gone, I still disagree...Everything happens here." ~ Gary Fincke (The Writer)
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Willa
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JodieLyn wrote:
Requiring:
You could require your kids to sit and do math on paper.
Inspiring:
You could get their interest by doing mental math in the car as a game. Asking them math questions. And generally making it part of your life (at least with the younger grades) |
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Yes -- unschooling taught me not to rely ONLY on requiring. Aidan loves Montessori-type math -- structured in one way, but he picks it up by choice and spends his free time working at it. Because I know this, I try to devote some time to doing math HIS way. Sometimes that is all that is needed -- the child goes the whole way on his own. With other kids and other subjects, I might have to nudge sometimes.
Sometimes it's me who has to be nudged -- my 12 year old admitted to me, when I asked him, that he hated the MCP Math approach we did last year. This year, we still have some structure, but I look for puzzles and conceptual games for math, which he likes much better. He is doing better in math this year because his imagination is involved.
For me, unschooling works best when I don't get locked into a particular vision of what it looks like. I try to look at the child, look at the situation, try different things, pray... have to run since I'm holding a ladder for ds who is taping the windows for painting
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Willa
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BrendaPeter
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Wow! You ladies are gems (but I already knew that ). Thank you so much for spending some time here with me.
Cay, I so appreciate all your thoughts. I do believe I truly "get it" as we do so many of the things you mentioned. I find that at times in my life I need to "walk" on the other side to get a true appreciation for what's going on in someone else's home. Also, I'm basically a very "black & white" person and these little rabbit trails help me to become more gray in areas where I need to. From the TJed perspective "Inspire Not Require" is black & white but honestly I am much more comfortable with a little bit of both.
Sooo we are back to a structured schedule with a disciplined mom who gives good example to the children by sticking to the schedule that SHE (!!) created - i.e. if she can't stick to it, how can she expect her dc to?!! The beauty of the schedule is that it is SIMPLE (similar to the Robinson Curriculum) which follows my favorite KISS (keep it simple stupid) method. Older children work fairly independently and mom actually has time to spend with the little ones and to keep the home running. If it works out that we have the opportunity to visit with another homeschool family then by all means, we scrap the schedule. The same goes if someone needs our help, a meal, etc. or for a holy day, funeral, religious function, etc. The schedule is not our master.
After 10 years of homeschooling, I would have to say the major lesson for me has been "if dad's not happy, no one's happy" which really translates into if I focus on my primary duties (meaning household chores, meal preparation, laundry, caring for the children, etc.) then things go very smoothly with dh (who is actually very easy to please) and, as a result, with the entire family. Keeping the home running (I'm not talking gourmet meals here) is truly the basis for peace in our home. That means scrapping alot of my own personal ideas about the "best" education for my children which has consumed gobs of my time. The children's education is a huge priority and, yes, we are hoping to achieve academic excellence but when I keep the priorities straight we all seem to function best. Submitting to God's will by submitting to my dh has truly been a blessing in our family. I feel as if I have arrived "home" after a long journey. God is so good!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Cay Gibson
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BrendaPeter wrote:
| Thank you so much for spending some time here with me. |
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I enjoyed spending time with you and Willa and Jodie in the parlor too, Brenda. Such a nice cozy get-together.
This is what I love about spending time with you ladies.
He really is.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Angie Mc
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Ooooooooo, I can't wait to come back and read this whole topic!
BrendaPeter wrote:
I've read some John Holt books lately & TJed resonated with me a bit, however, when I made our day less structured, the amount of idleness really increased. My oldest actually became somewhat "depressed" and asked for structure and direction.
So, how do unschoolers deal with idleness? |
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We deal with idleness by expecting the children's time to be spent in a "purposeful" and "deliberate" way. This is not the same thing as being "busy." One child is able to lay in bed and "think" in a very deliberate and purposeful way for a very long time. Another child can't. One child can sit at the table doing paperwork for a very long time. Another child can't. One child can watch ESPN and walk away with a wealth of ideas for his own athletic goals while another becomes a couch potato! Helping each child to understand their temperament, talents, interests, and duties and how they interplay can help them to know what will lead them to idleness as well as how to avoid it.
More later if I can find a few minutes:).
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Willa
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Angie Mc wrote:
| We deal with idleness by expecting the children's time to be spent in a "purposeful" and "deliberate" way. This is not the same thing as being "busy." |
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I like that, Angie! But how can you tell the difference? When do you start worrying? Would love to discuss it more.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Angie Mc
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Willa wrote:
Angie Mc wrote:
| We deal with idleness by expecting the children's time to be spent in a "purposeful" and "deliberate" way. This is not the same thing as being "busy." |
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I like that, Angie! But how can you tell the difference? When do you start worrying? Would love to discuss it more. |
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Well, if you don't mind me brainstorming and having no time to think first or edit ...
Dh and I don't assume that a behavior is in and of itself "idle." So we look at the thoughts driving the behavior as well as the outcome of the behavior. If my 16 yo dd (introvert) is resting on her bed, I can check on her thoughts by asking, "What are you thinking about?" Often, she is thinking about a novel she is writing (something about writing a contest to finish a novel in the month of November,) or she is trying to solve a problem - with her school work or her friends or... This behavior will lead to a purposeful outcome - I hope! If she answers in a way that lacks a deliberateness or purposefulness, she ususally responds in a way that is vauge or points to mixed feelings. If sullen or depressed feelings are the reason she is resting in bed, I try to help her sort through the feelings and find a way out. (This doesn't include times when she would be rightly sad and grieving...another subject.)
On the other hand, my 13yo ds (extrovert) may be bounding about the back of the house with his 3yo brother, laughing and being over-all big. I'll ask him, "What are you doing? Why?" If he answers something along the lines of playing a great game and both he and 3yo are satisfied, I call it deliberate and purposeful and good for their relationship. If, on the other hand, he stammers and looks guilty (this kid couldn't bluff his way out of a paperbag, God love him) then I press, "Do you need to be doing something else?" Sometimes he will be avoiding some other work and I'll help him to get back on track.
When I write that behaving in a purposeful and deliberate way isn't the same as being busy, I think I'm trying to say that we value down time, quiet time, prayer time, rest. Our afternoons are set up to give space to our children to take initiative and learn about God's will for them.
One more thought...when I was growing up, my siblings and I weren't allowed to "be bored." It was all the rage for my friends to say, "I'm bored", but I wasn't allowed. If I said, "I'm bored" my mother would say something like, "Great! We have a toilet that needs cleaning!" Needless to say, I never said I was bored . Dh and I don't allow our children to say they are bored either. We feel it is a bad habit of feeling the need to be busy or entertained by others. Time is a gift from God that needs to be appreciated at all times, even when we aren't sure what to do at the moment.
When do I worry? I'll think on that...off the top of my head, I worry when their mood darkens and/or when they aren't fulfilling their duties. I worry when their is a mysterious "why" floating in the air (my head), when there is a change in regular behavior (did I just describe the challenge of the teen years in general .)
I'll be back to read, later today.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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| Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 12:33am | IP Logged
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Reading with interest.
I think I'm struggling with this quite a bit, as we have moved more toward unschooling---
"Idleness"--a character issue at root?? A bad "habit" (as in CM's idea of habits?) In our house I am thinking also of, "discontent", or being restless/unfocused--or worse, downright destructive, where the crying need is for a parent to step in and redirect!! It seems to me too much "empty" time can lead in these directions 
All the same I tend to expect my children to "occupy themselves", and can feel irritated, or just be at a loss, when they need re-directing! As a kid (and an adult!) I was NEVER bored, I always have a long list of interests and things I want to do (I would have been a great unschooler, LOL!). So I just don't get why it isn't the same for all my kids.
As far as my own personality, I really go in "creative spurts". I have "high energy" days when I accomplish 5 days worth of work---and "low energy" days when I have to force myself to do the basics. "Low energy" doesn't mean idle----it's the lull between the highs of creative inspiration! In that "down time" I tend to want to curl up in my chair and not do a lot (looking very idle, I know people who say, how can you do that???). But that is when I get ideas! An hour or so alone with true quiet, and I'm popping up with a new idea, all fired up . . .. I'm not good at all about being consistant or sticking to "a plan" (though I'm always writing them!!), so my kids don't know what to expect day to day and I think that throws them for a loop and causes upset . But you know, you have to work with your personality, and the kids' have to learn to work with THEIR motivations, interests, goals, personalities . . . . Oh dear, hope that doesn't sound like a lot of babble. We all have our "homeschool challenges!"
All the same, for myself I need SOME kind of "flexible rails" to run on, or I can just get TOO meloncholy and scattered. I suspect my middle son, another "creative" type, is the same way. It just seems to be a challenge to find what that "track" is----and actually STICK TO IT.
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Angela Nelson
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 6:27am | IP Logged
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hereinantwerp wrote:
All the same I tend to expect my children to "occupy themselves", and can feel irritated, or just be at a loss, when they need re-directing! As a kid (and an adult!) I was NEVER bored, I always have a long list of interests and things I want to do (I would have been a great unschooler, LOL!). So I just don't get why it isn't the same for all my kids. |
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That was certainly the case here as well. I'm very "busy" (i.e. too busy ) all the time. My dh,not surprisingly, is very different from me so I learned alot from him when trying to understand my 2 oldest sons.
What I find interesting about my dh is that although he is alot like my sons (i.e. not so much interiorly motivated), he did very "well" in school and really enjoyed the challenge of it all which he feels is missing with our kids. He went on to medical school and has always been a great test taker. Obviously I'm biased , but he's an EXCELLENT physician. In terms of "leadership education" as promoted by Oliver deMille in TJed, I truly believe that neither my dh or I received that kind of education which is sad but at the same time I believe that my dc can get closer to that by having SOME structure and directed goals along with SOME freedom. I would love to be a fly on the wall of the deMille's home because I truly don't believe the "total" freedom thing works like he says, i.e. eventually (14-15 scholarship phase) they become motivated. I've heard way too many stories of children who were angry at their parents for not "making" them do their math, etc. Of course, I'd be thrilled for someone to prove me wrong! I know of a family who let their kids eat whatever and their kids do make healthy choices so I do believe there's some truth in what deMille has to say and that still intrigues me.
Another point is that I think it was difficult for me to implement the idea of unschooling, i.e. the motivation coming more from them, with adolescents who were already used to a certain style of schooling. If they're directed that way from the beginning it seems to become more a part of their formation. At least that's my sense at this point.
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 11:30am | IP Logged
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BrendaPeter wrote:
| I would love to be a fly on the wall of the deMille's home because I truly don't believe the "total" freedom thing works like he says, i.e. eventually (14-15 scholarship phase) they become motivated. I've heard way too many stories of children who were angry at their parents for not "making" them do their math, etc. Of course, I'd be thrilled for someone to prove me wrong! I know of a family who let their kids eat whatever and their kids do make healthy choices so I do believe there's some truth in what deMille has to say and that still intrigues me. |
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I always wondered how kids could blame their parents for something like not "making" them do their math. It seems to me that kids that say that would be showing a basic misunderstanding of what unschooling is about. Surely if I were totally unschooling that would be the very FIRST lesson I would imprint on my children -- that no one could "make" them learn, that they had to learn to be sensitive to their own needs and keep a range of possibilities open. .... be open to different types of learning, just in their own way.
I think it's difficult in today's world though to raise kids who don't feel "behind" when they see their peers can do algebra or whatever and they can't. In my family, some of my kids are fairly negative about themselves and are quite likely to define themselves permanently as someone who "can't do algebra" or "can't write". My homeschooling then has taken on a shape of exposing them to some experience in different areas like that so their self-definitions are in a process, and don't become fixed by what they "can't" do at the moment. With algebra I would say "you do algebra every day" and show them how algebra is part of everyday life and how people use it naturally without knowing the terminology.... and then if they were interested, provide books : ).
I do think there's truth in what DeMille says, Brenda. My older set all started focusing on achievement when they reached almost exactly that age. I wouldn't always call it "scholarship" exactly. For example, #4 has focused on athletic achievement, but is willing to work academically in order to meet his athletic goals.
I think as kids reach just about that age, they start realizing that some goals are worthwhile for secondary purposes. For example, my daughter did not like math. There was one year she did not do more than a few lessons in math, because it was such a struggle for both of us. Later she realized that if she wanted to get to college -- which she DID -- she would have to master that level of math. So she did, and she eventually grew to respect math and even like it. I did not make her do math or even tell her directly how she would need it. We just discussed a lot of things to do with life plans and she did her own research and figured it out for herself. ETA I think she also realized she had a space in her life where math ought to be -- and she didn't want to have that empty space permanently. I think a young teenager usually notices that kind of thing when given the opportunity, and that's probably why DeMille talks of the age of 14-15.
Also I imagine the TJEers (from reading their books) have an energized environment that rewards achievement and scholarship. I get tired, honestly, just reading their books. So it goes without saying I don't provide that energized, rewards-based environment. But I realize I do encourage intelligent conversation and thinking through things. People have different strengths. It works best to tap into ones' own, I think.
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Willa
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 3:50pm | IP Logged
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Thx so much Willa. It's always a pleasure to read your thoughts.
Willa wrote:
| I do think there's truth in what DeMille says, Brenda. My older set all started focusing on achievement when they reached almost exactly that age. I wouldn't always call it "scholarship" exactly. For example, #4 has focused on athletic achievement, but is willing to work academically in order to meet his athletic goals. |
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Yes, you are right. It comes with maturity and proper formation, imo. The funny thing is that after reading about all the different homeschooling "methods", I've found that trying to be a good parent is a pretty good method & about all I can handle most days!
Willa wrote:
| Also I imagine the TJEers (from reading their books) have an energized environment that rewards achievement and scholarship. I get tired, honestly, just reading their books. So it goes without saying I don't provide that energized, rewards-based environment. But I realize I do encourage intelligent conversation and thinking. People have different strengths. It works best to tap into ones' own, I think. |
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Yep, same here. Very well said.
After learning about different ideas regarding education, I realized that we're doing what we're supposed to be doing. We can always do better, of course, and being exposed to different ideas can be generally helpful, however, it's always nice to learn that you're on the right track, so to speak. Until you have a child who has "successfully" made it to their older teens, it's a little scary wondering how he/she will "turn out".
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 5:22pm | IP Logged
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hereinantwerp wrote:
| All the same, for myself I need SOME kind of "flexible rails" to run on, or I can just get TOO meloncholy and scattered. I suspect my middle son, another "creative" type, is the same way. It just seems to be a challenge to find what that "track" is----and actually STICK TO IT. |
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This JUST occurred to me and I am not sure if it flies but perhaps you're on a track already and just don't know it.
To explain -- I am getting into Montessori right now. I've been intrigued before, read several books, and it didn't ring with me somehow.
Now, with a special needs child who seems to crave touching, moving things, seeing visuals in order to learn -- I am suddenly able to read Montessori and understand a bit how it works.
With my first born child, I got into classical education... only later did I realize he was a natural classical-learner type. I must have intuited this and gone with the style because it appealed to both of our natural preferences. Unfortunately, I over-extended it a bit and tried to apply it to his brother who was a very different type. On the bright side, I was inconsistent, and didn't do as much harm as I could have. I gave him enough room to learn his own way, even though at the time I felt I was going off track and not following through.
I wonder if some of our "changing tracks" is actually adjusting to our childrens' tracks. That doesn't have to mean reading and researching all the time.... that's how *I* do it, but not everyone learns by researching and reading like that.
There's another element and that is the child's own active learning process. My kids have been able to benefit from my style and from the work I did with a sibling even though it wasn't targeted directly to them. In some ways learning is everywhere and there are lots of roads to find something out. This is probably an unschooling idea.... but it does seem true. You don't really need a perfect environment or perfect teaching in order to learn.
With the example of the "flexible rails" -- I'm like that too. But some of what helped me find that out was trying things that DIDn'T fit me -- I learned that too much structure or zilch structure didn't work.
Kids learn these things about themselves too. Even by their mistakes or their mothers' mistakes (!) they learn. My daughter and I occasionally talk about the well-intentioned things I tried that didn't work for her at all. She learned from that, as did I, about what DID work for her. Maybe if I had tried to convince her there was "only one right way" to learn and homeschool, she would not be able to discern like this. I don't know, but I do think part of what I want to teach my kids is to reflect on their own lives and learn from what didn't work; that mistakes and false starts sometimes teach as much as the successes.
So maybe some flexibility and variation is a good thing -- I guess that's my point. Yep, that's it
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Unschooling - Dealing with Idleness
