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monica
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| Posted: March 31 2007 at 1:46am | IP Logged
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We are still kind of in the researching stage about homeschooling approaches, and the classical method really has me stumped. a few questions for anyone out there who knows about it-
What is classical method exactly? is it learning classical languages (ie, greek, latin, etc)? Is it following the 3 stages of learning? Is it studying history in a certain way?
Why teach in the classical method? is it proven to give a better education?
Does the classical method not cover other non-european countries and cultures (ie china, africa, south america)?
Why teach ancient languages instead of modern languages?
Is Charlotte Mason considered in the Classical mode of homeschooling?
as you can see, this approach is the hardest for me to "get", though I am sure it has great merit. I just need a good salesman 
any input would be greatly appreciated. thanks
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Willa
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| Posted: March 31 2007 at 2:30pm | IP Logged
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Dear Monica,
We are closing down the boards for Holy Week tomorrow, so I don't think there will be time to do justice to your questions. They have made me think! I'll try to write out some scattered ideas for now (and links to more) and maybe we could revisit this after Easter.
I am thinking there aren't any easy answers to your questions, since different "classical educators" emphasize different things. I don't think there was any real definition of "classical education" until recently, when we realized what we had lost of our heritage. Up till recently, "Christian education" (as described by the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1916) was assumed to have components of classical instruction and to have Latin language instruction as a main part of its emphasis.
Education -- (from the Catholic Encyclopedia) also see The Seven Liberal Arts
We lost a lot of that in modern times when education began to be thought of more as technical training and forming a child to be a compliant part of the State. So now people are attempting to reclaim that more traditional understanding, and "classical education" as we now call it is one method of approaching the task.
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| What is classical method exactly? is it learning classical languages (ie, greek, latin, etc)? Is it following the 3 stages of learning? Is it studying history in a certain way? |
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First of all, here's the wikipedia definition of
Classical Education -- it's not comprehensive, but it might be a good starting point. The definition includes the concept of paideia-- which is "the process of educating man into his true form, the real and genuine human nature." I think it is important to start here because the other descriptions of classical education will be unclear, and even misleading, if this starting point isn't taken into account.
Different people might say different things, but I don't think ancient languages, history, or the "3 stages of learning" are the "essence" of classical education.
A chronological approach to history comes from, I think, the classical concept that education ought to be "integrated", not broken down into isolated sub-categories.
The three stages of learning came from Dorothy Sayers' essay (a summary and a link to the essay are here, by Susan Wise Bauer-- but this idea of "stages" is not in itself a classical idea -- Sayers meant it as a modern psychological analogy to the ancient idea of the "Trivium" -- but the ancient Trivium itself was composed of subjects, not stages.
You will find a rationale for using Latin as the core of a classical curriculum in these Memoria Press articles. The idea was that intensive Latin (and for gifted students, Greek as well) provided an unparalleled training of the analytic and synthetic faculties of the mind. These abilities would help in ALL subjects -- science, composition, theology -- since it taught precision, and accuracy, and a reliance on first-hand knowledge rather than second hand "accepted by faith" information. This is too big of an idea and too new to most modern people for a summary to be very helpful, so if you are interested in that aspect, it would be good to read the articles I linked to at Memoria Press.
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| Why teach in the classical method? is it proven to give a better education? |
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Some would argue so, and point to a list of people who were educated classically and became great scholars and leaders and effective writers. I would personally say it depends on what you mean by "proven", and I would also say that HOW classical education is taught is very important to its success. For instance, I personally believe that a purely secular classical education is ultimately sterile and unproductive, and that an overemphasis on drill and kill can backfire and produce people who don't know how to think, but only how to memorize and recite. These are the errors that some classical educators fall into, and I don't think those modes would produce better results.
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| Does the classical method not cover other non-european countries and cultures (ie china, africa, south america)? |
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The classical emphasis is definitely on Western Christianity; however, because of the globalization of today's society it seems to be important to know something about the background of some other cultures. However, we are usually limited in what we can teach or learn in a lifetime, so I think classical education would definitely put the emphasis on the the Judeo-Christian and Greek/Roman roots of our present civilization and teach about other cultures more secondarily.
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| Why teach ancient languages instead of modern languages? |
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The idea is that Latin (and to some extent Greek) is a key part of our cultural heritage. Many of the great works up till fairly recent times were written in Latin. Latin was the language of the Church. Plus, Latin and Greek are embedded in most of the modern western languages, so any knowledge of those ancient languages cuts down the effort of acquiring the modern ones. (I have certainly found this to be true even with the very little Latin and Greek I know). Most classical educators don't advocate JUST learning ancient languages -- but they put those languages as first priority, and the modern ones in a secondary place.
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| Is Charlotte Mason considered in the Classical mode of homeschooling? |
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Charlotte Mason was vehementaly opposed to the new, modern utilitarianism of education -- she was trying to reclaim and also refine the ancient understanding of the Liberal Arts in education, which is called "classical". But she does not call her method "classical"; she calls it a "Liberal" education, meaning an education to fit the whole human person. Her ideal was that every human is entitled to an education to form the WHOLE person, not just the worker he was to become. So in other words, education is much more than just teaching skills and a good work ethic. It is about opening doors to one's heritage as a human being made in the image of God. This is very similar to the ancient idea of "paideia" which I mentioned at the beginning.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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JuliaT
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| Posted: March 31 2007 at 3:48pm | IP Logged
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Monica, you were given an excellent answer from Willa. I thought I would just give my personal opinion of Classical Education. There is something about CE that rings so true to me. I have flitted from one method and philosophy to another in the past three years, but I always come back to CE in some form.
There is always disagreements and controversies over what is exactly Classical Education. For me, CE is the search for wisdom, beauty, truth, goodness and virtue. A classical education also enables you to know what you believe in and why. You are also able to express what you believe and why. The tools that CE gives you in order to do this is grammar, logic and rhetoric. For me, this does not mean the stages; it means the subjects. Latin falls under the banner of grammar, but, to my way of thinking, latin is also a rigorous study in critical thinking.
Is classical education a better form of education? No, I don't think so. But it depends on what your goals are for your children. For me, it is very important that my children know what they believe and are able to express that belief in an articulate and persuasive manner. It is also important that my children are able to see through various smoke-screens that other religions put up so that they don't become swayed by fancy talk. From what I have read, I will be able to do this through CE. Now that is not to say that no other method or philosophy cannot do this, but CE is the one that I am comfotable with. As I said, CE is always what I come back to in some form or other, so that tells me that CE is right for our family.
I do think CM is a form of classical education as she had an appreciation of what is true, good and beautiful.
Blessings,
Julia
mom to 3(7,6,4)
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk
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Cleo
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| Posted: March 31 2007 at 8:15pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
The idea is that Latin (and to some extent Greek) is a key part of our cultural heritage. Many of the great works up till fairly recent times were written in Latin. Latin was the language of the Church. Plus, Latin and Greek are embedded in most of the modern western languages, so any knowledge of those ancient languages cuts down the effort of acquiring the modern ones. (I have certainly found this to be true even with the very little Latin and Greek I know). Most classical educators don't advocate JUST learning ancient languages -- but they put those languages as first priority, and the modern ones in a secondary place. |
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I'll expand on this, if I may.
I have taught my son Latin starting in first grade. My son was an early reader, and by kindergarden, he could read Harry Potter, so there was no danger of him getting mixed up with different phonics. Also our main language is French. I was a bit dubious about Latin, having never learned it myself (I learned English and Spanish as second languages, both to fluency). I quickly saw the advantages of learning Latin YOUNG, and not in high school. It expanded my son's vocabulary by leaps and bounds. It gave him a very strong grammar foundation, much better than if he'd only do French grammar. Now that he's more or less in 5th grade, his grammar concepts are probably higher than mine were when I graduated from high school - and I was a good student in a private school!
He *chose* to move on to Greek, and he now does it independently. I know nothing of Greek, but he loves it. He's keeping up with Latin too, and English as a second language. We'll be adding Mandarin in the fall most probably.
The goal of Ancient Languages is totally different than the goal for modern languages. Young kids can learn modern languages very easily if you can provide an immersion situation, but failing that, kids will learn very little, because they are lacking the tools! Grammar can be learned intuitively - that's how we all learn our mother tongue after all - but only via immersion. Otherwise, you need to understand grammar concepts thoroughly to grasp a new language. Latin and Greek both have advanced concepts that are not found all together in any living language. With those concepts under their belts, kids are very well equipped to learn any European language. We'll see how it holds up with Mandarin. (I don't know that language at all, it's uncharted territory!)
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monica
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| Posted: April 19 2007 at 11:22am | IP Logged
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i just wanted to thank you all for your input on my question. i didnt get a chance to respond earlier because of the boards closing. your responses helped clear up some issues for me. can you recommend some of the classical education curriculae you have used? i am still trying to get my head around it, and maybe looking at some of their sites will help.
perhaps this is difficult for me as we now live in eastern europe, where i am realizing that all my years of studying western european and american history don't necessarily apply here. also, as my son learns a romance language (romanian) by immersion, i am wondering if learning latin or greek would be redundant or helpful.
thank you again for your input.
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JSchaaf
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| Posted: April 19 2007 at 2:56pm | IP Logged
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Monica,
Here are some books:
The Well Trained Mind
Latin Centered Curriculum
Both authors/publishers maintain websites and message boards:
The Well Trained Mind Message Boards
Latin Classical Education Yahoo Group
Memoria Press
The book mentioned above, Latin Centered Curriculum, answers most of the questions in your original post.
Definitely go read the material at Kolbe Academy Homeschool We will probably enroll with Kolbe in the next few years when grades/transcripts/reporting to the state becomes more of an issue.
Personally, I find The Well Trained Mind to be inspiring and very exhausting. Our current flavor of homeschooling around here is Latin Centered but implemented in a Charlotte Mason fashion. My girls are young, so we are just getting started with formal school, but if you have any specific questions about what we use/do, feel free to ask.
Jennifer
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Willa
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 12:25am | IP Logged
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I think the idea with a classical education is that it gives you the tools for learning and a perspective -- big picture -- to put new learning into.
So eastern European history would be different in details but related somewhat. I read Witness to Hope (about Pope JOhn Paul II's life) with my second son this fall and it mentioned all this Polish poetry and drama I had never even heard of. But I knew that many of the themes and ideas would be familiar to me through my acquaintanceship with western Literature, and that is what I think a classical education would aspire to give a child -- a worldview to fit the new details into. Learning is lifelong but there are some fundamentals.
Latin and Greek seem so integrally bound up with thehistory and tradition of our Church that they would be beneficial for that reason alone. I suppose even the Polish Pope learned Latin and it helped give his distinctively Polish context a wider universality. If Romanian is a Romance language then Latin would have some ties with it and that is always fun and motivating -- to discover the similarities the Latin-based languages have between themselves.
Oops, I forgot your question about the classical resources and I have to get off the board now but I will try to reply tomorrow -- hope others give you input too since I would be interested as well!
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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JuliaT
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Monica, I can't give you any suggestions for classical education resources because I don't really use any. I used to use Prima Latina and Minimus for latin. I also used to use Classical Writing (I don't know the website and I don't know how to do links, sorry) CW shows how to use the progymnasmata (the classical way of writing) to teach writing. I don't use these curriculums any more.
I have had a paradigm shift on how to educate my children. I have recently read A Thomas Jefferson Education. I was quite taken by this book. I am hoping to use the principles laid out in the book and apply them to the classical philosophy. Because my children are still so young, I am concentrating more on the basics right now, like math, reading and writing. I am not planning to take up the latin gauntlet again until my dd is 10 or 11. This is when I may start up with Classical Writing as well. What i am doing now
is trying to prepare the stage for when we do gear up to more of a rigorous education. Presently, we read alot and then we discuss. I am not much of a talker so this is more for me than it is my children. But we discuss what we have read in light of moral values and anything else that pops up.
I am in a hurry and you can tell by the zigzagging that this post has taken. I hope that I have made sense. For the early years, I think it's important to concentrate on the basics plus to show them the beauty that is in God's world. When they are older, then you can take up more of a classical stance in their education.
Blessings,
Julia
mom to 3(7,6,4)
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: questions about classical education. . .
