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Bookswithtea
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My son is good friends with a Lutheran boy. He's homeschooled, and a nice kid. They are in scouts together and have taken hs coop classes together in the past. They also live close enough to us that the boys get together sometimes just to hang out.
Over the last year, he's also done the following:
Pestered my son till he's blue in the face about "going to Awanas" with him.
Pestered endlessly about his church's youth events (he knows my ds likes Christian rock and uses that to try to get him there).
Cornered both my son and his best friend (a Catholic from our parish) about the typical anti Catholic things in a tent at a scout campout.
Brought his devotional to our coop classes one day and pushed rather hard for my ds to "read this" and to take it home.
Yesterday we picked him up and brought him to our home. He said, "You guys have a Christmas tree? We don't. Its a pagan tradition. Jesus wasn't even born in December."
The first few incidents I told my son, "He just likes you and wants your company. Just politely say no, that you have your own youth group." I assumed the best. But now I'm feeling like there are too many incidents to ignore them.
I don't know what to do. I can't choose my kid's friends at this age (13), and honestly, he's a good kid and most of the time they talk about music and play board games.
My ds is feeling pestered but doesn't want to end the friendship. I am tired of this kid trying to undermine what we've taught our son!
I thought I was doing the right thing in letting my children enjoy the traditions of the season without turning every little thing into an apologetics sermon. Obviously the Lutheran boy's family has taken a different strategy.  I realize I am going to have to make apologetics a much bigger part of our home, and I presume this kind of thing is only going to happen more frequently as ds gets older. At the same time, I thought 13 was the right age to *start* these lessons. Was I wrong? Should I be starting younger with my other children?
I am frustrated and confused. I need some wise Titus II advice from mothers who have walked this road. Please help?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Martha
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I don't have teens yet... so take it with a grain of salt.
Has your ds told him that the pestering has become pestering and to stop it, please? If so, what was the reaction? This would weigh heavy with me. A true friend respects boundaries and there has to be basic acceptance of who they are as individuals. If this fellow can't do that...
How does your ds (or you) respond to his comments? If nothing else the tree comment was just rude. You don't visit someone in their home and then critique negatively on the decor! 
Looking forward to other responses because we encounter this fairly regularly already and I imagine it's just going to get worse as they grow.
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MichelleW
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13 is the age I was when I converted all my friends to Catholicism. I remember 8th grade as being of particular spiritual importance. When I taught Junior High, we used to laugh the 7th graders were excited about everything little thing, 8th graders were bored with every little thing. I think, in general, 8th grade is a phase when kids start to feel as Solomon did, "vanity, vanity, all is vanity." They tend to be looking for something of "true" importance. Many kids begin to take spiritual things very seriously at this age. Isn't it perfect that Confirmation is often right around this age?!
In the case of this boy, I am sure he has good (albeit misplaced) intentions. He must love your son very much, if he wants to ensure that they are spending eternity together. I don't know what I would do about this. I guess I would ask your son what he would like to do.
When I was in 8th grade I remember that all my friends had questions about my Lenten sacrifice (chocolate doughnuts that year, yum!). They had SO many questions that led to other questions. I don't remember being offended by these questions. I guess I still feel that non-Catholics are actually pre-Catholics. The questions they ask are because they are seeking the Truth, and it is our job to speak it. In this case, it feels like pestering, but it is because God has become important to this boy. Remember Apollos in the New Testament? He had part of the Truth, but not all of it. Paul talked with him and was able to baptize him. Apollos was preaching the part-Truth, probably very vocal about it, but because God was important to him he had a teachable spirit. We can pray that this boy's love for God be like that of Apollos and lead him to the Truth instead of leading others away from it.
On the tree thing: I am confidant that Lutherans would agree that pagans did not invent trees. God did that. It makes sense that His creation would point to Him, and the Psalms even encourage us to use His creation to proclaim His Glory. We have Biblical permission to decorate with God's handiwork when we celebrate Him. I know you already knew this, but I am finding a lot of Protestants this year have been frightened into almost ignoring this holy day because trees are pagan, or Jesus might have been born in September. As young as four years old we told our kids that the exact date of Christ's birthday has been lost, but isn't it good to celebrate the event? We often celebrate our children's birthdays on days that are more convenient for one reason or another. It doesn't mean the child wasn't born, or that we should not celebrate his or her dear birth. Arrgh!
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Bookswithtea
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I've given some thought to your advice. Thank you for sharing.
I think my ds is not particularly confrontative, so I don't see him telling his friend to "lay off." I think I might suggest to him that this is an option if it gets worse, though.
Michelle, I particularly loved your comment about not celebrating birthdays on the actual date sometimes!  Perfectly simple example. I told my son that if we were bowing down and worshipping our Christmas tree, then we could be accused of paganism per Jer. 10, but since we aren't doing that, I don't think the scripture applies. 
In stepping back from all of this, I do see your point about thinking kindly of the other boy and being glad that he loves Jesus enough to share. I'm thinking that more and more, I need to provide some guidance to my ds on how to handle situations like these, but I can't really fix this problem. I guess I knew that to begin with, but I'm still getting used to having a teen.
Any suggestions on how to teach our children to be gracious when counteracting proselytizing friends yet speak the truth are most welcome! I don't want to arm him with loads of apologetics scriptures but forget to arm him with charity.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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ALmom
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These kinds of things have gone different ways depending on the particular Protestant. We've always felt when our Protestant friends start sharing their faith in a really pushy way or especially if they start spouting misconceptions or errors, we are under a certain obligation to share our faith and correct the misunderstanding - otherwise it is often seen as reinforcing the stereotype that Catholics simply have all kinds of meaningless ritual, are non-Christian pagans who worship statues, etc. I don't necessarily expect them to believe what I do, but I do expect that they at least listen to what I do believe as opposed to what they think I believe. Sometimes, not giving a defense of your faith often simply invites more hammering whereas an intelligent response often leaves a certain sense of respect or at least that maybe I'd better be better armed before I challenge this one - and either the friendship was real and continues on with mutual respect or the game is over.
Now, in sharing your faith, I don't mean being confrontational or getting into proof texting, but equal enthusiasm for what we do and why we do it. I've seen this shared very effectively in very non-confrontational ways and ways that are not intimidating. There is nothing wrong with your son being shocked that this other child would have a problem with Christmas trees while explaining the symbolism or what it means to him and sharing a typical prayer blessing of the tree. After all the days of our week and months come from pagan gods, doesn't mean we worship them. A simple question of bafflement - does that mean you use different days of the week - cause we derived those from pagan gods - points out the inconsistency without being directly confrontational. The problem is unless you have anticipated a lot of this, the Catholic is left stunned (the other side seems so outrageous but then they sound so knowledgeable quoting all those Bible verses ) and doesn't know how to answer and this just reinforces that we really are pagan and need to be saved ... So, yes, by all means begin to study apologetics but maybe not on so formal a level - more on the practical.
If you have lived in the deep south for a while, you kind of know the typical problems as they come up over and over again and after a while you find out it is the same few proof texts that they know - but they haven't heard a lot of the ones that support the Catholic view - those don't come up in sermons and you find that most of this is one person mimicing another and repeating what the parents, the sunday school teacher or the preacher said rather than after any deep thought about it.
If they have trouble with the Christmas tree, more than likely they will also criticize your Easter baskets as eggs are associated with Easter bunnies that come from a fertility cult in their mind while we look at new life... so anticipate this and be sure to discuss all the reasons for your celebrations long before this friend discovers them - then your child is equipped and will find his own way to answer the challenges without feeling side-blinded. You'll get challenges about any statues and religious pictures, the rosary, prayers of intercession through Mary and especially her Immaculate Conception as they will quote about all sinning. You will also often hear that the Pope is the whore of Babylon (or the Catholic church) and some very strange end time calculations that are always changing. At some point you are bound to be asked about whether or not you are saved - sometimes phrased as have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior and Lord, that Catholics try to get to heaven by works, and that we have stacked on traditions that God has condemned (they usually quote one verse out of context for this one). Be sure your son has a solid background in church history as the view generally presented is that Jesus died and rose and the disciples had it right but then somewhere by the middle ages, we somehow had so many layers of human tradition that the reformers had to go back and find the original - but there are plenty of church fathers that certainly show that this is not the case -Also know the difference between infallibility and indefectability (they'll quote the "all have sinned..." verse and you'll be standing there baffled wondering what the heck they're talking about until you realize that they have been trying to shoot your faith down because this or that Pope sinned and therefore infallibiltiy cannot be true and so some Pope's have sinned but that doesn't have any bearing on infallibility....
It's not that you want your son to be equipped with all kinds of arguements or ruin the sheer fun of celebrating - just with the confidence that what we believe is true and isn't it wonderful that we can really celebrate the life of faith without a boogy man on every corner. Then he will answer challenges in his own way with confidence - or find a way to divert the discussion if he doesn't want it to go there.
Also let him know that it is perfectly acceptable to ask for some time to research and think about something. Some denominations do not believe in any musical instruments in church, some here would be scandalized by alcohol and/or dancing of any kind - even a glass of wine with dinner. We had someone tell us that the Baptist church was directly founded by John the Baptist (being this was an elderly person who was not directly challenging us and we knew nothing would change her mind, we simply let it slide - and worked very hard to keep a respectful face as we had just studied the history and this did come across to my children as very humorous). If you have access to the book "The Marylanders" it has a rather humorous portrayal of a Puritan who laments that the papists have all the fun while going into a history of the Maryland colony. It gives you some background where some of these roots are in the south. There may be things that come up that will surprise your son - ie my children were rather shocked to learn that many Protestants do not have a Christmas day service or even Christmas eve but celebrate it the Sunday before.
You always want to be respectful - even when they are not (as the case of coming into your home and criticizing your way of doing things)- though this is often simply immaturity. But definitely guide the child, without getting into it directly unless it is parent to parent as it is one thing for 2 kids to share - and another when a parent is tearing down another family's traditions and convictions. It is fairly normal for the age to explore and is a real opportunity to clear up old prejudices and an opportunity for you and your ds to talk and investigate. Still, be prepared that sometimes people will run when they see you are not easy prey. I'd definitely look into apologetics - more from the typical questions you are likely to get than from an arguement standpoint so he doesn't always feel so cornered and you can discuss things between the two of you long before they come up so he has the confidence to react when something does come up. You can then throw out how inconsistent some of this is in your discussion with your son while he will make his own decisions about what to say when with this friend. (One mom here was simply baffled by a Protestant's concern about statues and how they thought we worshipped them - her comment was "don't you say the pledge of allegiance" and their answer was yes - "well if I'm worshipping the statues then you are worshipping the U.S. flag after all you say "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." Now it wasn't like she sat around calculating how to say this - she simply knew her faith so well and was somewhat familiar with the typical arguements against Catholicism and the strongly patriotic tendency of these families that she could react in sincerity without any defensiveness - and the response she got afterwards from the person was a sort of pondering -"gee I never thought of it that way."
In our experience, our dc have had "friends" that were simply trying to convert them and after inviting dd umpteen thousand times to their events and being politely turned down (no reason given so we didn't have to go into the lack of availability of Mass at the camp event or the Bible study being only part of the truth and skewed, etc.) and then the parent in a discussion with me (things just came out in normal conversation - I think we were discussing our respective dd involvement in church music and she was bringing up with me again about this camp thing and I finally just had to explain why we couldn't go because our dd would need access to Mass) finding out how passionately Catholic we were, they simply stopped inviting this child to anything whereas before she was invited to some things she could attend (movie at a house with friends) and some things she couldn't and she was dropped like a hot potatoe in terms of being sought out to talk to during orchestra breaks, etc. These same kids would start debates with the Catholic high school kids (who embarrassingly knew very little about their faith and were sitting ducks). Sometimes the outreach is not as genuine as it appears but is trained graciousness as a means of "saving souls" and while well intentioned, it did leave us feeling a bit wary and sometimes a bit suspicious (maybe more than we should be).
This same type of thing happened to another Catholic who was friends with a Protestant neighbor - and when this boy simply wasn't interested in going to the other boys church events, the friendship just fizzled. It was sad as it didn't have to be. But we have found extreme bonding that is provided in Protestant activities for teens and they simply grow away from you in the teens if you don't share those activities with them. Sometimes there is anti-Catholicism and sometimes not. Sometimes it is simply a very strong conviction that their children need to be only among like minded others lest the bad apple make the whole rotten and our Catholicism is a potential danger (while this isn't specifically anti-Catholic, it is hard on our kids). It is painful for ours - as unfortunately they never had the same kind of bonding opportunity within their own parishes and things could get very lonely. It was hard seeing some wonderful things out there - and wonderful kids that I would have loved my kids to do things with as we had more in common with them than many of our fellow Catholics particularly on the moral front, pro-life, etc.
Then there were other kids who sought our dd out because they really respected her and occassionally the conversation would turn to something and there were questions of curiousity or wonder - and a willingness to hear free give and take. These people never did anything really social with our dd, but they always enjoyed speaking with her, sought her out for chamber groups and the difference in faith did not suddenly put a stop to the sharing.
I guess our dc have always lived in the deep south, so this kind of stuff is very, very common. Sad part - the kids at the church (CCD and Catholic schools) were begging for apologetics because they were being specifically targeted and cornered in the public school cafeteria and they wanted to be able to give intelligent answers to all the attacks. Instead they were given a blather of rock music and fun and games and stuff they weren't that interested in or that they could find done much better at the Protestant church across the street. The way a question is asked often gives you an idea of how much is proselytizing or repeating adult anti-Catholicism and how much is simply genuine curiosity. Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions and assume the best, but be prepared as well.
This is just my 2 cents. I will say that I almost left the church in 6th grade for a combination of reasons (lack of good example in the Catholic community, no catechesis and exposure to the typical challenges to the faith) so I was a part of a group that went out and tried to get people to Accept Jesus as their personal Savior and Lord and you were definitely trained to be nice, to reach out in friendliness, to try and find common interests to reach the "unsaved" - and everyone but especially Catholics were potentially "unsaved". There were a lot of good things among these sincere and dedicated people and definitely the attraction of people on fire for our Lord and really wanting to live radically for him no matter how other people may have treated you and there were genuinely friendly people but there definitely is sometimes a plan to all of this and it can leave children hurt and baffled. The enthusiasm can also feed our own arrogance - I certainly look back in shame at how arrogant I was in thinking I had all the answers, the certainty of salvation, etc. while I still appreciate that I at least heard about the 10 commandments and striving to live a holy life.
Hope this helps you some as you think and pray how to help your son through those so vulnerable teen years.
Janet
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Leonie
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One thing we do is invite in return - we invite our kids' AOG friends to our parish youth group, to our kids' Confirmations, to the parish Christmas carols, etc. They come. 
It can work two ways. 
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marihalojen
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Wonderful responses, I think it is much better to prepare our children than let them waffle around on their own. I remember the first year I attended a public school (I'd only been in Catholic schools previously) and a Protestant kid invited me to one of their functions and I was appalled. I told them there was no way I'd ever attend a pagan service with a bunch of heathens. You know, they never bothered me after that.
Marianna came up with her own Protestant theory while we were living in Amish territory - the Protestants are just like the Amish, every time they disagree about something they start a new group. Straight pins and rosaries, rubber tires and Saints...
Does anyone use the Friendly Defenders Catholic Flash Cards? I think they look really interesting (for me too!) I really like the look of the sample cards on the site. It looks like each question is backed up with both Bible verses and Church teachings.
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Carole N.
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All of these responses are wonderful. And I agree that it is important to prepare our children for these situations. We live in a predominately Protestant area (4% Catholics), and almost all of the homeschoolers are Evangelical. Although my ds (13) is close friends with one boy (Baptist), I find that they are very exculsive in their relationships.
And Marianna is correct. When this family became unhappy with the pastor at their church, they left and went to another church! During the whole process of choosing a church, they were very miserable because they were out of their community.
Amy Welborn talks about this in her books written for teens. I also recommend the Friendly Defenders Cards that Jennifer mentioned as well as the Beginning Apologetics Series by San Juan Catholic Seminars. Jim Burnham was at the Midwest Catholic Family Conference last year, and he was a wonderful speaker. As an introduction for my ds, I had him read A Philadelphia Catholic In King James' Court. It is an excellent book and models charity while speaking the truth.
But the final preparation is to always pray to the Holy Spirit before speaking. I have found that in converstations this always arms me with kind and charitable words while at the same time planting seeds. You never know what effect you will have on someone.
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Carole ... in Wales
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Bookswithtea
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We have the Friendly Defender cards, but haven't made use of them yet. I see January being a great time to start!
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Blessings,
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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time4tea
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Books,
I re-read your entire original post and had to edit my original comments -
Are you really sure this boy is a Lutheran???? I was raised Lutheran (I am the only Catholic in my entire family) and I have never, ever heard about Lutherans not believing in Christmas trees or Jesus being born in December. Ever. Luther was an Augustinian monk, and while he definitely strayed fron the Church in many of his ideas, the Christmas tree and Christmas in December and other such things were not part of them. Everything I know about AWANA is that it is actually a Baptist Bible club for children, often operative in small, independent, fundamentalist congregations. What you describe even sounds like this boy and his family could be members of a fringe group, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, who to my knowledge do not celebrate Christmas, birthdays, etc. I would really look into this, because if this is so, this could be a dangerous situation for your son. Just to reiterate, Lutherans are a typical "main line" Protestant group (such as the Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.), they do not and have never espoused the kinds of things your son's friend is pushing.
Hope this helps!
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Erin
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time4tea wrote:
| Everything I know about AWANA is that it is actually a Baptist Bible club for children, often operative in small, independent, fundamentalist congregations. What you describe even sounds like this boy and his family could be members of a fringe group, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, who to my knowledge do not celebrate Christmas, birthdays, etc. |
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AWANA groups here in our town belong to the Independent Baptist church and they have very different beliefs to the Baptist church.
I have friends who belong to the Free Prsyberterian Church of Scotland and they don't celebrate Christmas, not does my friend who attends the Eastern Pyresbeterian Church of Australia. Although that is not her church thing but her own 'latest' idea.
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Erin
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mommylori
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I do not have a teen, but I do have many friends like that. I have learned these people are very uneducated about the Catholic faith, and also have lots of prejudices towards it. So I educate them, very nicely and sweetly. My best friend in the whole world tried to convert me for about 2 years, I just would exsplain what we believe and go on like no big deal, and actually I think it really did help me grow in my faith and also educate me, because I didn't always have the ansers, so I would have to look them up.lol It is frustrating when they have most of the bible memorized.lol
I have a very diverse group of friends so it can get interesting but now we are at a point where we have learned to grow with eachother and look at the simularities and that also helps. My other best friend is Jewish.
But just talk to him about apologetics and diffrent faiths and tell him to reeducate your son. As for the Christmas Tree, trust me many lutherans have Christmas Tree's.lol I am hearing more and more about why people don't celebrate Christmas I actually think it is kind of Sad, it is such a special time of year. And those people actually seem to make me feel like they think the Pagan religion was before Christianity, but in all actuallity the Jewish religion was 1st, it started with Adam and Eve. And they Celebrate many many holidays including Hanikah. And many of there traditions can sound Pagan, but I think that is where the Pagans got it from.lol My Jewish Friend has never tried to convert me, but she has really taught me so much about the Old Testiment and why we do the things we do. Jews do not convert at all, infact if one wants to become Jewish and talks to the Rabbi he will refuse you 3 times, to make sure this is where God is truley leading you.
But I would just talk to your son and reinforce him, I am sure you have set a very strong foundation for him in his faith, and if he starts to have doubts, or questions use this as a time to educate and grow together.
Also most of the Protestants that don't celebrate Christmas have this as there own Idea.lol I am on 2 other boards and one of them is very very conservative strict protestant, with a few Catholics mixed in. Plus I have spent the last 4 years in out and of Coastal Souther Georgia in the country, where you have one Catholic Church on the outskirts of town if you are lucky enough to live in a big town.lol I had to pass I think 15 baptist churches to get to my church.lol And they don't like Catholics down there, or atleast where I was.lol
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Proselytizing Protestant Teen...help???
