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Kitty witty
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| Posted: Jan 09 2013 at 10:36pm | IP Logged
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I joined here awhile back but life has been so busy it feels like I never have time to post! So I'm sorry for the weird first thread. :)
I had baby #5 two years ago. I had some prenatal anxiety due partly to stressful life conditions, but brushed it off. After birth, my anxiety grew immensely worse. PPD became a big issue and after months of nightly anxiety attacks, my PA put me on zoloft. It did take the edge off and the anxiety got much better. But I don't feel it did anything for the ppd. I feel like I was never able to properly bond with my little one. Not the way I have with my other kids. I feel like I never got to hold her (she was a very laid back baby who didn't like the baby carriers). She preferred my oldest dd to hold her most of the time. She and dh bonded well and it took over a year for dh to stop brushing off my pleas for help from the ppd and stop making jokes about her just being a Daddy's girl.
I prayed that she would need me more because I felt...unnecessary since she was such a "good" baby. Well, it's funny how prayers are answered! For months now she has been quite difficult and clingy. But now I feel so busy homeschooling the other kids and dealing with life and bad back pain (SI joint and I threw out my pelvis last year) that I don't know where to start!
Has anyone had luck reconnecting with themselves or loved ones after PPD? Does anyone have good resources for getting over the anger of being affected by it? Ideas for connecting with a little one after a rocky start? I just don't even know where to start. I feel so lost.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 10 2013 at 5:38pm | IP Logged
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First of all, while bonding is very important, the most important thing was that your baby had someone who could bond with her. Because a baby that has bonded with someone will more easily bond with others. And bonding is such a varied thing.. children bond with all the members in a family.. even ones that they don't see frequently (like extended family who live out of town).
So she is in all likelihood bonded to you and you to her. What you want to do it just strengthen that bond. And the way to do that is through time and touch and interaction. Cuddle her whenever she's willing. Sit down and read books with her.. read books to your older kids with her plunked down on your lap as much as she'll do. If you want her to go to sleep on her own in bed, that's fine but perhaps create a ritual before bedtime when you sit with her in a rocking chair (or a non-rocking chair) and read a book or sing a song or whatever something calming to prepare her for bed.. or if you're not worried about having her go to sleep in her own bed.. rock her to sleep. Bonding comes from time. And you're going to have to carve out the time that works for her since like most toddlers she'll be "too busy" a great deal of the time. Perhaps sitting with her when she's in the bath? Having her help when you mix up something.. little ones LOVE being the "dump truck" and getting to dump everything you've measured into the bowl.
I haven't had PPD in any significant way. But I was in the hospital last year for 2 months at the end of my pregnancy with my youngest. The hospital in a larger city, 2 hrs from home. I only saw my kids once a week. My little guy was 11mo when I left and 13 mo when I got home. So I do feel like I had to reconnect with him. And sitting with him and reading stories (yes even if we only read one page and then he's off again) these are all things that give him touch and attention and now a year and a bit later, there's not really any difference from the kids that I wasn't apart from for more than a couple hours at a time until they were over 3 or so. Actually the most difficult was my then 5 yr old. She's got a more difficult personality to start with and it took us the better part of the last year to get her back "under control" as far as her willingness to listen to instruction from anyone.
I'm not sure of how people are supposed to get over the anger at something like that  for me I consider it part of the problem.. I'm not going to let ______ steal more time from me by wasting my time in being upset about the time that's already lost.. or something like that..
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Kitty witty
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| Posted: Jan 10 2013 at 9:19pm | IP Logged
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JodieLyn wrote:
| I'm not going to let ______ steal more time from me by wasting my time in being upset about the time that's already lost.. or something like that.. |
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Thank you so much for your reply. I felt weird "putting it out there" on the internet, but you girls seem wonderful and I have learned so much reading here. Being that far away for 2 months sounds so hard! I'm glad you were able to reconnect.
I try to carve out time, but it always seems I get so busy that the important things slip. I think I just need to go into repair mode and schedule time in for her more. :)
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 10 2013 at 9:30pm | IP Logged
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yeah and sometimes you have to do that. Though toddlers are so busy you also need to check if they are the busy one or if you are 
You might also just tag her into any transitions.. like if you're switching subjects with the older kids.. sit with her and read a story (at this age if you get 5 minutes you're doing good) when you stop for lunch read a story before you start to cook. If she still naps.. take 5 minutes before she goes down, oh and my favorite the 5 mintues after she wakes up.. they can be so soft and warm and sleepy snuggly.. at least for the few minutes it takes them to get going again. 
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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SallyT
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I also have never really had severe PPD, though when my youngest (now 9) was a toddler I did experience about a year of terrible debilitating panic and anxiety following the death of my dad, on top of much financial stress. I never sought medical help (other than trying to find out whether my thyroid was involved), but in hindsight I can see that for a fairly long time early in that child's life (and that of her 16-months-older brother, now that I think of it) I was present but checked out.
She had also been a very easy baby, after spending the first week of her life in the NICU for Group B Strep -- she came home scheduled, sleeping through the night, and just generally laid-back. It was our first year of homeschooling, with a 9-year-old, a 6-year-old, and a toddler in the mix, and one of my most vivid memories is of her lying peacefully in her Moses basket on our apartment dining-room table, watching the ceiling fan while chaos swirled around her. She got *much* attention from her older siblings, especially her then-9/10-year-old sister, in her first year, but I was stressed and worried and maxed out, and we certainly didn't have the kind of "babymoon" I had had with the others.
As she's gotten older, her need for me -- and only me! -- has become more pronounced. It may just be one of those things, but I have wondered whether it's not some latent mommy-need that wasn't met as fully as it might have been earlier in her life. It is *hard* sometimes not to push a clingy, whiny 9-year-old away -- and indeed, I do have to take care to ensure that I'm not in a mode of responding out of guilt for something that may or may not have anything to do with behavior in the present -- but for some years now I have been making a point of being attentive, responsive, and present to that child, and to fill her up with love when she seems really to need it. I make a point of touching her, holding her hand, stroking her hair, putting my arm around her in Mass (last night I elbowed her in the eye while putting my arm around her in Mass: score, Mom). It's not been so much a matter of carving out extra time as of being present to her, and physically affectionate to her, in the ordinary course of our day.
I think it is hard, even at the best of times, with younger children in a family lineup, to replicate the intense closeness that we have had with our first/older children -- what did I have to do, when my oldest was a baby, but stare at her all day and hold her? I do think that God knows what He's doing in giving younger children their older siblings' intense love, because that does fill a lot of inevitable gaps (and I also think that He knows what He's doing in giving older siblings babies to love and to be *older than* -- my younger children were absolutely the making of my oldest daughter). God's grace really is sufficient to cover our shortcomings, and it does cover them in all kinds of ways, including in the guise of other people. I'm convinced that He even uses inanimate "loveys." My youngest is the only one of my children to have formed a huge, ongoing relationship with a stuffed animal, and I am absolutely sure that this little rabbit named Pinky is an agent of grace and love in my daughter's life. For a while Pinky even had her own St. Anthony medal, which she wore around her neck, because he saved our lives and sanity by finding her so many times when she was lost in the house!
Anyway . . .
I have also observed that bonding is a continual process, with seasons of waxing and waning. Right now, for example, I'm a bit at a distance from my 15-year-old son, to whom I was intensely bonded when he was small. It's not a bad thing at all, not really a loss of closeness so much as a season of his life when he's naturally closer to his father and more on his own, and my role is to be present but not intrusive. My 10-year-old son, on the other hand, still really really wants his mom a lot, and as with the 9-year-old, I make it a project to respond and to remember that he craves physical contact and direct, focused attention. Later on I imagine it'll be all, "Hey, Mom, wanna watch Mystery Science Theater 3000?" as a love language . . . At least, I figure that filling him up now with the kind of love he clearly does crave will mean that he'll want to watch Mystery Science Theater 3000 with me later on!
I don't know whether this is helpful to you or not. I'm really just kind of thinking aloud, because even at this late date in my younger kids' lives, I do look back at where I was emotionally in their early years and -- whether or not that really has any bearing on their needs now -- see a particular need to feed those relationships. I see their awareness of their need for me. Not that that need ever really stops, and not that early bonding is necessarily an inoculation against it . . . What is true is that no hug, no loving touch, no gesture of affection is ever wasted. And I think that that's probably what's really important to focus on, rather than regret for the past. At least, that's the kind of thing my confessor is always telling me -- it's always what I need to hear! (and if you want an antidote to anger and regret, confession is really good that way . . . )
God love you. I know that He loves your little girl through you.
Sally
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CrunchyMom
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SallyT wrote:
| but in hindsight I can see that for a fairly long time early in that child's life (and that of her 16-months-older brother, now that I think of it) I was present but checked out. |
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I like how you put this Sally. That is how I feel about my current 4 year old. From the time he was 2-2 1/2, I was pregnant and completely focused on selling a house, moving, etc.... Then, once we moved, I gave birth to a very high needs baby. I was overwhelmed, and looking back, I was clearly "checked out" for a long while!
I do feel sad that I "missed" some of that precious, fleeting time with him  But, I have been able to come about again and reconnect. I don't want to downplay how our actions and choices have the potential to affect our children, but I've also found comfort in learning that children ARE quite resilient and forgiving. I know they are all different, but my boys' are quite open to efforts I make to reconnect and "start over" again and again.
I DID have ppd after my second was born and my mother had died suddenly during that pregnancy. I was never treated professionally for it, but I made a lot of dietary changes that did help to pull me out. It was a dark time, but not quite so hard, I don't think, as what you describe because it was only my second, and he was relatively easy going but a cuddler, so I was able to wear him in a carrier almost constantly, which helped fill his basic needs for connection even if I was mentally not quite there.
I have to say that the one activity that stands out to me as being an indicator of how checked out I am, as well as doing the most to reconnect, is reading aloud. Saying yes to a story or starting a chapter book as a family has a very mystical power, ime. You bond emotionally and usually physically, and they get to hear your voice in a positive way even after a day full of admonitions, requests, and reminders.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SallyT
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Of course, I say all this wise-sounding stuff, and then go on to have an awful day with said child, butting heads at every turn. So, grain of salt alert here.
Sally
PS: Resounding yes to reading aloud. It's the best, most unitive thing we do all day.
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Kitty witty
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SallyT wrote:
Of course, I say all this wise-sounding stuff, and then go on to have an awful day with said child, butting heads at every turn. So, grain of salt alert here.
Sally
PS: Resounding yes to reading aloud. It's the best, most unitive thing we do all day. |
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I'm sorry! Touch really is important. She hated being worn in the carrier as a baby. I have many that I tried but she would rather have been down as a "big kid" playing with the others, and then I hurt my back and pelvis and could barely even hold her sitting down. That was so hard for me. I will have to add cuddle time to my routine for her. I think we both need it.
SallyT wrote:
I think it is hard, even at the best of times, with younger children in a family lineup, to replicate the intense closeness that we have had with our first/older children -- what did I have to do, when my oldest was a baby, but stare at her all day and hold her? I do think that God knows what He's doing in giving younger children their older siblings' intense love, because that does fill a lot of inevitable gaps (and I also think that He knows what He's doing in giving older siblings babies to love and to be *older than* -- my younger children were absolutely the making of my oldest daughter). God's grace really is sufficient to cover our shortcomings, and it does cover them in all kinds of ways, including in the guise of other people. I'm convinced that He even uses inanimate "loveys." My youngest is the only one of my children to have formed a huge, ongoing relationship with a stuffed animal, and I am absolutely sure that this little rabbit named Pinky is an agent of grace and love in my daughter's life. For a while Pinky even had her own St. Anthony medal, which she wore around her neck, because he saved our lives and sanity by finding her so many times when she was lost in the house!
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I had to especially quote this part. The guilt is miserable! I was always holding my other kids and our entire world was centered around them. Dh largely played with the older ones and everything seemed to be about the baby. This time, it just wasn't possible and I feel like I missed that babymoon. I've considered getting a hotel for a weekend with my youngest to just spend time *with her*, but I need to wait for taxes and pray I have enough to! Our family is all very far away, but once a year my mother takes my older kids to her house for a week. Last time she did, I felt like it really rejuvenated our relationship, but things got busy again and it slipped, kwim? I feel stretched. Not because of how many kids I have (5) but just new responsibilities that dh has handed over to me, being homeowners, new sports/music for the kids, etc.
CrunchyMom wrote:
I have to say that the one activity that stands out to me as being an indicator of how checked out I am, as well as doing the most to reconnect, is reading aloud. Saying yes to a story or starting a chapter book as a family has a very mystical power, ime. You bond emotionally and usually physically, and they get to hear your voice in a positive way even after a day full of admonitions, requests, and reminders.
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I honestly read less than one book aloud her first year of life. She would cry when I did! Dh had to take her on a walk so I could read. Luckily now she's ok with it and is even quiet sometimes.
Checked out is a good term for it. I wasn't so deep that I was suicidal or anything, but I dreaded every day and felt like there was something...off. I felt and thought things that were abnormal to me and I was so anxious all of the time. I was distracted. I was physically there, but in another universe in my head.
I am so sorry to hear of everyone's losses. :(
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JodieLyn
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Oh and just because.. I do have a child that is extra clingy that just needs extra touch.. not because anything was drastically different than most of the rest of the kids. So, keep in mind, that while there can be problems that cause more clinginess, it can also just be the child.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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SallyT
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I think that's true, too, Jodie. My oldest was VERY high-maintenance and clingy, until she was . . . well, almost a teenager. And it certainly wasn't because I hadn't been there when she was a baby! It also hasn't been the story of her whole life. As a young adult, she's tremendously independent and confident in ways that I'm sure would surprise people who knew her when she was little. The seasons people do go through!
I am reminded a little, in this conversation and my reflections on my own children, of that marriage meme where the man and woman have been on a date, and the man hasn't been talking. The woman's diary records every minute of the evening, with her becoming more and more upset at his "withdrawnness," assuming something is horribly wrong and crying herself to sleep, thinking the marriage is over. The man's diary says, "Truck won't start. Can't figure it out."
That is to say that as mothers we should be careful not to assume that our narrative of our children's lives is necessarily their narrative. It might not ever occur to a child to explain his or her relationship with us in the way that we explain it to ourselves, in terms of what *we* see as our failures. Not that the child wouldn't, looking back from the perspective of adulthood, have a list of things he/she wishes we had or hadn't done, but those things probably wouldn't correspond too closely to our own list -- in fact, I suspect that they'd probably really surprise us.
I know that it's natural to feel guilty over what we see as our failings, especially where our children are concerned, and to a certain extent, guilt can be productive as a wake-up call. I know it works that way for me. It would be awful *not* to know when I've done wrong, and awful not to be able to model the act of asking for forgiveness! But as I continually realize in my own life, it's really not helpful to let a relationship be dominated by guilt -- and it's not necessary, in the sense that the other person might very well not see us as "guilty" at all, in the way that we think we are.
If your daughter could put things into adult words, she might express gratitude, for example, for the opportunity for a special, close, early relationship with her father, without seeing that in terms of the lack of a relationship with you, even though *you* may perceive it that way. She might be grateful that you responded to her need *not* to be held and carried all the time, that you didn't try to force her into what *you* thought was the correct kind of intimate mother-child relationship -- she might well have experienced things that way, and not as your absence or neglect. Sometimes, even when we think we're at our worst, we really are better than we think, by God's grace!
I have four children, spread out over ten years, in two "sets" -- the olders, who are 19 and 15, and the "youngers," who are 10 and 9. It's very, very easy for me to fall into the trap of comparing my older kids' earlier childhood with my youngers', and to find the latter wanting. When the olders were little, we lived first in beautiful Utah, then in England: gorgeous scenery and camping and good friends, followed by gorgeous scenery, good friends, and history we that we didn't have to go out of our way to experience, because it was just there on our walk to the grocery store. In both of those places, in inaccurate hindsight, I see our life as just incredibly rich and beautiful. My husband was first a clergyman, and we lived next door to the church, so he was never really absent, and then a doctoral student, home most of the time. All of this was so rich for my older children, and sometimes I'm saddened by the thought of how different and relatively "boring" my younger kids' American small-town life is, and I can feel that I ought to be making up for that somehow.
But then I consider that my younger kids have a stable home in a way that the olders didn't; they have friends they likely won't have to move away from; we're more financially stable than we were in those earlier years; we're not in the ongoing turmoil of a very slow religious conversion. To my younger kids, *this* life is magical, and they wouldn't want to trade, I don't think. I'm the one making the comparisons, and the one they bother is *me.* I can drive myself crazy trying to remember what I did for the older kids that was right and good and "worked", to try to do it again for the youngers, who are completely different people. I do far better when I remember to listen to *them,* and not to the narrative playing in my own head, which tells me that things ought to be a certain way, on some scale totally divorced from our current reality.
I'm also reminded that while I never really had PPD (surprisingly, since I'm prone to depression and anxiety), I did experience precisely what you describe during the onset of menopause several years ago. For one awful summer, my existence was all about that feeling of dread on waking, like a big black lid was clapped onto the box I was living in, cutting me off from life and joy. I didn't have any babies then, but I'm sure all my family felt the effects, possibly with far greater and more articulate awareness than a baby would have had (though I certainly don't think babies are unaware!).
I can't go back and change that time; all I can do is to remember, daily, that each day is new, and that I don't have to relive the failures of the yesterday, or last year. I can't see that the children particularly registered in any lasting way that Mom was in a funk back then, and possibly the best gift I can give them is not to dredge it back up again, not to reopen and process and try to make atonement for it in such a way that they think, "Wow, yeah, now that you mention it, that was bad! You really did neglect us. Boy, does that make us miserable!" As much as I might be tempted to make up to everyone for my emotional absence during that time, the kindest and most loving thing I can do is to let go of it and just be present in the present.
I'm sorry to keep rambling on and on. I feel as though I'm mostly processing my own stuff and not helping you with yours -- except that I think I have learned some things which this conversation is making clear, to me, anyway! The past really is such a theme in my confessions, and my confessor says repeatedly, and rightly I think, that women just are this way, that we have a hard time letting go of both our pains and our failures. Knowing this has been helpful to me, because it gives me something to work on. It's not as satisfying as completely solving and atoning for the past would be, but I think that satisfaction is ultimately God's, not ours.
Anyway, God bless you. I will be praying for you.
Sally
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mamaslearning
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Oh, PPD and anxiety/panic is so difficult to live through! I completely understand and experienced tremendous problems with my last pregnancy. I suffered panic attacks in pregnancy, tried Zoloft and had a bad reaction. Giving birth was wonderful and I felt great, but when they said we could leave I cried and cried. I even had a friend bring over formula that first night because I couldn't nurse him (I wouldn't nurse him), plus I went back to the hospital because I couldn't calm down. Therapy and time is what is healing me at this point. I continued with regular anxiety/panic for that first year and then slowly it started to space out. I couldn't take medications due to bad reactions (they all increased my anxiety, plus I was nursing), so I had to rely on therapy and lots, lots of prayer. I am still fighting situational anxiety, but for the most part I can leave my house again. These boards are what helped me through that horrible time of suffering! Love these women!
All that to say, I too feel like I missed out on my 3rd and 4th child's early years. My 3rd child was 15 months old when I became pregnant with my 4th and began having anxiety problems. I didn't get to carry my last two kids like I did my first two (loved my slings, had a whole collection), and I didn't get to spend time in playgroups or story times. They have a completely different mother than my two oldest children.
Okay, so no real advice, but I try to get alone time with each kid at least once a month. Take them to the grocery store, go on a ride somewhere, etc.
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Lara
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Kitty witty
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Sally, thank you. You weren't rambling at all! It really does help! And that meme is too funny. That is *exactly* dh and I! Lol
Lara, I am so sorry that you went through this, too. I do need counseling, but my PA never will get back to me for a referral and a list of who takes my insurance. I need to get back on that. It does make me a little nervous and like I am exposed to do so, though. My ex-stepfather was a psychologist and abusive, so it kinda scares me.
I've been trying to take one kid at a time out alone, but I really need to more with the youngest two. I suppose I should start a thread in another forum, as I am looking for good bonding curricula & activities for the youngest two "homeschooling". I've focused so much on the oldest two that I feel like next year should really be focused on the littles. But my brain is so wound up that planning something would take too much right now. Kwim?
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4 lads mom
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Kitty, look into “Five in a Row” for your littles...that is a gentle, easy literature based program that you can follow to a tee, or just pick and choose what works for your brood. I am in awe of what the other ladies have shared....I too have felt anger over not having easy pregnancies, easy babies...etc...etc..after having so many medical issues and such. Keep talking...journal....take some time for “Mommy Culture”, and most of all, be gentle on yourself....you are a good mama, otherwise this wouldn’t even be an issue to you!
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Maggie
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Kitty,
I have way too much experience with this.
I had very debilitating PPD after my second (in retrospect, I had it with my first, too--but I did not want to admit it because I was not one of *those* women. I was foolish).
I was treated with progesterone therapy from the PPVI institute, which helped, but I still wasn't feeling great. I denied having them put me on naltrexone, which I now regret because I was so helpless.
We lost 3 more babies after that which pretty much put me in a perpetual state of PPD for years. Only with help from the PPVI, a fantastic nutritionist, and a very gifted spiritual director do I feel like I am coming out of things and finally doing well.
However, if it is still bothering you, I would contact the PPVI to have them evaluate your hormone and blood levels to see if something is up physiologically speaking. They have shed a lot of light on things for us.
Dr. Greg Popcak (phone counseling) helped me immensely with trying to bond more with my children. There was much that needed healing.
Feel free to PM. I am very open about my struggles, if it will benefit someone.
__________________
Wife to dh (12 years) Mama to dd (10) ds (8), dd (1), ds (nb) and to Philip Mary (5/26/09), Lucy Joy (12/6/09), and Margaret Mary (3/6/10) who entered Heaven before we had a chance to hold them.
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Kitty witty
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 22 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Jan 25 2013 at 8:43pm | IP Logged
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Maggie wrote:
Kitty,
I have way too much experience with this.
I had very debilitating PPD after my second (in retrospect, I had it with my first, too--but I did not want to admit it because I was not one of *those* women. I was foolish).
I was treated with progesterone therapy from the PPVI institute, which helped, but I still wasn't feeling great. I denied having them put me on naltrexone, which I now regret because I was so helpless.
We lost 3 more babies after that which pretty much put me in a perpetual state of PPD for years. Only with help from the PPVI, a fantastic nutritionist, and a very gifted spiritual director do I feel like I am coming out of things and finally doing well.
However, if it is still bothering you, I would contact the PPVI to have them evaluate your hormone and blood levels to see if something is up physiologically speaking. They have shed a lot of light on things for us.
Dr. Greg Popcak (phone counseling) helped me immensely with trying to bond more with my children. There was much that needed healing.
Feel free to PM. I am very open about my struggles, if it will benefit someone.
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Great. I just started pro-gest, so I will check that out, for sure!
4 lads mom wrote:
| Kitty, look into “Five in a Row” for your littles...that is a gentle, easy literature based program that you can follow to a tee, or just pick and choose what works for your brood. I am in awe of what the other ladies have shared....I too have felt anger over not having easy pregnancies, easy babies...etc...etc..after having so many medical issues and such. Keep talking...journal....take some time for “Mommy Culture”, and most of all, be gentle on yourself....you are a good mama, otherwise this wouldn’t even be an issue to you! |
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Tat is actually something I want to try. I found a bunch of Pinterest boards with FIAR yesterday after thinking about it. Sounds like just what we need. Thank you.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Healing from PPD
