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Chris V
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 1:55pm | IP Logged
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Is this awkward? Hopefully not inappropriate. But I am genuinely interested in others' opinions on this matter. It's not something that I have spent a great deal of time pondering, but these thoughts have crossed my mind from time to time.
After Mass this morning, I was talking to a beautiful woman (she really is a beautiful soul), about this very subject. She is desperate to have a baby. She is older (approximately 43) and is very healthy; however her hormones levels are very low, so she is giving herself injections in order to support a pregnancy.
I got to thinking about whether or not we should be doing this ...
There is a natural time when we are no longer within our child-bearing years. That time is different for each of us, but perhaps it is safe to say that a lot of women begin this process in their early to mid 40's. If you are not able to conceive naturally (due to our age), are we going against the very nature of the way God created us by artifically creating an environment that will support life? Do we not need to full place our trust and faith in the Lord that should we conceive it be because our bodies are still able to support life?
I feel as though I'm not doing a very thorough job at articulating my thoughts, but I'm trying to be rather delicate with my wording, so as to be certain not to offend anyone because I realize that this may be a delicate matter. But I'm truly, truly interested in hearing from other's and their understanding of Catholic teaching and personal perspective.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 2:05pm | IP Logged
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Generally the hormone that's deficient is progesterone and it can happen at any age.. what it means is that the corpus luteum isn't providing enough progesterone to sustain the pregnancy until the placenta takes over. So with this you are concieving naturally.. and once the pregnancy is far enough along it will be self sustaining again.. but that there's a time period between conception and the placenta producing enough progesterone that you need help to not lose the baby.
In some ways it's really not different than providing insulin if your body can't manufacture it.
Now if you're talking something more extensive than progesterone I'm not sure I know enough about it to have an opinion. And certainly as I understand it.. supplementing hormones would be within the Church's teaching of what's acceptible.
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Chris V
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 2:11pm | IP Logged
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I guess I shouldn't have narrowed it to just hormone levels (although it sounds like this is the primary issue with her); because I do understand that this can happen at any age.
I guess I was thinking of a broader sense of fertility related to age in particular.
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Chris
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jillian
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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we are dealing with infertility currently, secondary. DD was easy peasy to conceive. DH's boat pulled back in and 2 weeks later DD was on the way. We've been trying since Jan. 2009 for another baby but no such luck here. I am 25 and dh is 28. We aren't older and our fertility issues have no definable cause right now. As it stands right now we are willing to go through up to injections though we are going to start with some ovulation inducing drugs (like Clomid).
The inner hole in both our souls is something that I can't describe. If you've felt it you know it. We both know our family isn't complete and we both know as well that it will happen when God decides it will happen.
Sorry the topic is difficult to me and near to my heart due to our struggles
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 2:31pm | IP Logged
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 Of course that's what you were asking.
Well I know lots of women (including myself) that have gotten pregnant in their early 40's and some that have carried a baby to term in their late 40s (48 in one case).. and a whole lot of women that are able to concieve and end up having repeat miscarriages.
And I know that there's a lot of restriction on the licit methods used to help with conception (no labratory replacing the marital embrace for instance).
So I would think that the Church's teaching wouldn't go against God.
And some of us may be called to heroic efforts to concieve and carry a child and others to let go of the desire and gracefully give into the inevitable aging.
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 3:32pm | IP Logged
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Jillian, we had secondary infertility, too (under almost the exact conditions you describe). It's a hard cross to bear.
I find great comfort in the teachings of the Church, and I was always sure, as we were trying to conceive our daughter, that my husband and I were on the same page in this regard. We knew how far we were willing to go on the path of fertility treatments, and that helped us a lot.
But it's so very hard to put ourselves in someone else's shoes, because usually we don't know the whole story. My friend, who's had two miscarriages, is currently caring for her elderly mother, which has put an end to their dream of adoption...but she doesn't share that part of her story with too many people. (And my friend's mom had her at age 45, back before fertility treatments were common...)
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jillian
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 3:47pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
Jillian, we had secondary infertility, too (under almost the exact conditions you describe). It's a hard cross to bear.
I find great comfort in the teachings of the Church, and I was always sure, as we were trying to conceive our daughter, that my husband and I were on the same page in this regard. We knew how far we were willing to go on the path of fertility treatments, and that helped us a lot.
But it's so very hard to put ourselves in someone else's shoes, because usually we don't know the whole story. My friend, who's had two miscarriages, is currently caring for her elderly mother, which has put an end to their dream of adoption...but she doesn't share that part of her story with too many people. (And my friend's mom had her at age 45, back before fertility treatments were common...) |
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Thanks for the kind words.
And sorry for the minor thread jack lol
There is such an empty place when you want to conceive and you can't for whatever reason (from past health issues, unknown reasons, or whatever) that it is tempting to go as far as medical science will take you. I know that feeling as I'm sure others who have dealt with infertility know too
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 3:51pm | IP Logged
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I think that this likely falls into the same category as whether one chooses to use NFP to space their children or avoid conception. Certainly there are people who do it without grave reason or with a "contraceptive" mentality or whatever, but defining that line is impossible for us to do from the outside looking in. Accepting God's will for us looks different for us all, and He asks different burdens and battles of each of us.
I imagine it to be something that varies, and for some people, the medical interventions might be a result of their refusal to accept God's will, but for others, it is the sacrifice He asks of them or even allows for them in order to give them the child they desire.
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organiclilac
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Hmm... my understanding of Church teaching is that you can "fix" something that isn't working right - so taking progesterone or Clomid to restore hormone levels/bodily functions that would normally be there is fine. (As opposed to IVF, etc. that completely circumvent normal processes.) But, I think I see what you're saying, if you are in the final stages of your fertile years, maybe those hormones aren't "supposed" to be there - so then you are tweaking nature more. I would think progesterone to support a naturally occurring pregnancy would be okay... but not sure about something like Clomid at that point. Interesting question.
Jillian, I suffered from secondary infertility also - for 10 years! And then this baby came along and was such a surprise! I hope that you can find a good doctor to help you through this.
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Chris V
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| Posted: Oct 06 2011 at 5:38pm | IP Logged
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organiclilac wrote:
| Hmm... my understanding of Church teaching is that you can "fix" something that isn't working right - so taking progesterone or Clomid to restore hormone levels/bodily functions that would normally be there is fine. (As opposed to IVF, etc. that completely circumvent normal processes.) But, I think I see what you're saying, if you are in the final stages of your fertile years, maybe those hormones aren't "supposed" to be there - so then you are tweaking nature more. |
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Yes, that is/was exactly what I was wondering... if you are in the final stages of fertility, you are artificially creating an environment to support pregnancy, rather than embracing our natural aging process as God designed. My friend (I'm just using her as an example to try and further explain what I'm contemplating here...); as I mentioned, she is 43, and healthy. Her and her husband have had 6 beautiful children, the youngest of whom is now 4 years old. She has been trying to conceive for at least the past three years ... to no avail. She mentioned that her doctors have told her that it is likely her age that is presenting the biggest barrier, and not her overall health, which her health is very good (honestly, I'm not picking on her whatsoever ... she is a friend of mine and I love that she desires more children!, it is just that our conversation has sparked some deep questions within in me as to how far we should go to have a child, when in advancing child-bearing years and fertility is coming to its end).
Our ability to reproduce does come to an end. No matter how much we would love to welcome more children, is there a point in which we gracefully accept our changing bodies and embrace nature, as God created it? Are there not significant reasons that we are no longer able to conceive that we must consider?
Thank you for indulging me with my question. I realize that there is no clear answers in this, but I really do appreciate having a better understanding of the teachings of the Church, as well as your own personal perspective on the subject.
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Chris
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JennGM
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Chris, I've pondered this quite a bit, myself. My doctor did explain that most of the time, if the baby is going to be miscarried, no amount of progesterone is going to help.
It can help, though. I used progesterone for my pregnancies, and I had struggled with both primary and second fertility, and didn't conceive until my 3rd year of marriage, when I was 36. I did lose some babies, and two I carried full-term, and all had progesterone.
For my first son, we did two rounds of Clomid and used progesterone, and we had success. When we were having secondary problems we tried the Clomid again, which had terrible side effects (too many ovarian cysts), so we had to stop. We did try to see a infertility doctor, thinking we could try the moral approaches. After one meeting we decided we would just let go and let God decide. I did not feel comfortable being in the same office with frozen embryos. Even if he was using moral techniques with us, I just saw all the rest and felt I couldn't work with it in good conscience.
We got pregnant soon after that, but we really didn't think it would happen. I was 40 when ds was born.
But after 40, I really wanted to let Mother Nature take its course. We would use progesterone if we got pregnant, but that's about all we would do.
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guitarnan
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I think the hardest part is knowing when our own fertility might be beginning to decline. In days gone by, I think mothers and daughters spent so much time together doing household tasks that some of those "talks" just came naturally, and it's been my experience that most of what happened to my own mother happened to me at the same age or stage. But...she didn't share any of that with me until I mentioned my own issues. It would have been so very helpful to have known what I might expect in advance, but that did not happen.
My own daughter is just 13, but I do tell her some of the things that I experienced at her age and a bit later, so she can compare her experiences to mine. Later, I'll tell her about our secondary infertility issues and what we did to cope with them, and share pregnancy stories...I think we moms have to pass on family medical history to our daughters, because our experiences/issues are their best gauge for what might happen to them. And, while we do that, we have the chance to share the Church's teachings at the same time.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: How far do you go to conceive?
