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amyable
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| Posted: Dec 08 2010 at 6:51pm | IP Logged
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O ye ladies of high wisdom, help me! 
I have always been awful at habit formation in my children. I simply don't GET the process unless it is spelled out for me in excruciating detail. (I know some of you are good at that  )
I need my children to get the knack of cleaning up their messes. I don't really mean the "Oh I was reading a book and left it out on the couch" although that happens all day too. What bothers me more are the things like:
- pouring cereal or eating messily and not cleaning it up
- taking out 8 things to make lunch and putting back some or none
- leaving clothes and dirty towels after bath or morning dressing
- knocking something over (making an accidental mess) and then watching it fall and going on with your day...
Add this to the "I left a game/toy/meal out and the 3yo opened it spreading mess everywhere  in our open 1200sf house and you can see why my head wants to explode. Well, you could see it if you came over. It's all over every surface. 
I do address things as I see them, but I am often with another child or doing another task while this is happening, so it comes too little, too late. With kids from 3-13, we do not "move in unison" throughout our day as much as we used to. Should we be? I think I might go insane of certain of my children never left my side. Like the ones that are always ---> <----talking.
I am not really talking about the younger ones either. Learning differences and personality quirks effect my oldest 3 in such a way that they are like the 3 Stooges of Mess. This is why habits, I feel, are essential! But obviously I've failed at instilling them in this case. I don't expect my 3yo or even 5yo to be "good" at this yet, but the older ones? Absolutely.
Any thoughts? I'd love to hear what you do...love to know your kind of positive and/or negative reinforcement... anything.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Erin
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| Posted: Dec 08 2010 at 10:27pm | IP Logged
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Amy
I'm still struggling with this here too 
On a bad training day I tend to rant and rave whilst I clean up On a good training day I drag, ah call, them back to clean up said mess. Still feel like I'm a nag but I really need to instill better habits. What I've been thinking is I need to make sure that they raise to the bar. ie. Ds packed the dishwasher after lunch, but I just discovered he didn't wipe the bench. 
What did I do - told him he should of done so.
What should I have done - Called him back to do it.
I know what I should be doing, it is just doing it, my hugest sympathies. 
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Erin
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 9:19am | IP Logged
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I keep trying to respond and sound encouraging at the same time. 
This sort of thing has to start when they are small. If it hasn't it CAN be changed but it will take work. Then again dealing with the mess is work so you have to decide which you prefer; the focused time and attention it will take to help them form new habits (which will eventually not need your oversight) or the current habits that will not resolve themselves and will continue indefinitely. Let me make the side point that if you do not teach them this they will go into adulthood with these bad habits and very possibly drive their in laws crazy (hypothetically speaking of course).
Gosh, I sound like such a stick in the mud! But trust me Charlotte Mason knew what she was talking about when she said that good habits make for smooth and easy days. I am not organized, neat or disciplined by nature but I have worked to form these as habits and they have done much to enrich my life and give me peace. I don't always stick to them though some are rather ingrained and I do find I like order and not clutter (this from a woman whose closet was so full as child that all the contents would fall on you if you opened the door!).
I have tried to instill them in my children. Some come to it easily (being more of their father's temperament) and some not so easy (being more of their mother's temperament). You have to start with deciding what you want. Priority wise what's the most important --for me that would be the thing that will most keep my head from wanting to explode as you have mentioned above.
Start with one thing and focus on it, FOCUS. Be an absolute stickler. Let no one off the hook. Keep at it until they get it. Don't scream and yell just be persistent. Make them so tired of hearing you say it that they will do it just to shut you up (hey it works)!
And I will tell you that if you instill these habits in your older children they will help instill them in your younger children (I have found this lovely consequence to be true in many things actually).
So Amy, what drives you batty the most? What ONE thing do you need to see changed? Maybe we can help you come up with a plan.
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Michele Quigley
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 9:28am | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
Ds packed the dishwasher after lunch, but I just discovered he didn't wipe the bench.
What did I do - told him he should of done so.
What should I have done - Called him back to do it.
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It's tiring isn't it? And sometimes it's just easier to do it yourself. Charlotte Mason wrote that mother's need to make it a habit to train their children in habits. So true!
If I see something missed I do one of two things. Call them back to do it correctly (yes I have pulled teenagers out of bed to finish the kitchen properly) or I do it and say nothing. Sometimes it's just a matter of them not seeing what I see (boys in particular are this way I find) and not a matter of them not trying so if I see that they have done their best I'll accept it, clean up the rest and offer it up for something.
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Michele Quigley
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 9:48am | IP Logged
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Michele makes wonderful points!
I'll add that I approach this as a training program. It would overwhelm me (and the children) to tackle everything all-at-once. If I sense that we've dropped some habits, or that life feels chaotic/frenetic/disordered/crazy/confusing...I do a few things first.
** Focus on ONE ZONE, and ONE CHUNK OF TIME at a time
** Prep the ZONE
** Anticipate needed tools to make the training smooth
** Make a list of expectations to be displayed prominently (this is for me...and for the trainees!!!)
So...an example. I usually start with bedroom habits. That means I might spend a weekend going through the kids bedrooms, purging, tidying, sorting. I go through clothes removing unnecessary stuff. We keep a toy rotation closet, and during training time I like to set them up for success...which means...fewer toys/things to deal with. Thus, a number of toys retire to the closet for this time. I make a list of the things I expect accomplished each morning BEFORE coming downstairs for breakfast:
** Dressed & PJ's hanging on hook
** Beds made
** Books tidied
...and then (and here's the point at which their habit training hinges!!) I have to be present to check and assist in building the habit. That means I have to go upstairs, check, and with a neutral voice remind so-and-so that their PJ's don't hang on the floor and there will be no breakfast until they are hanging on their hooks.
It works the same way for all the routines and zones of our home. I recently reviewed and tackled meal routines and the kitchen. That meant spending a weekend (or three) working through my kitchen and menus to get my work in place first. I reviewed mealtime habits one meal at a time. I spelled out expectations for every child CLEARLY (on paper, or they will argue their way out of a corner with expert finesse...and I'll get flustered between that and trying to do too many other things at once...or I'll just plain forget...so the list on the fridge is pretty important for my training!). And then, we have troops review before we move on to another thing.
My big challenge --> follow through on troop review. I just keep trying to be consistent.
So....
MicheleQ wrote:
So Amy, what drives you batty the most? What ONE thing do you need to see changed? Maybe we can help you come up with a plan.
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Jen Mackintosh
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JennGM
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| Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 10:04am | IP Logged
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I can't add much, as we are working on this, too. Constant vigilance required on Mom's part.
With my older one, I've noticed he works better having a chart or something written to remind himself what is expected of him. So the reminder to DO something doesn't always have to come from me (did you check your chart?), but the checking and verifying that it is done and done correctly is done by me.
Half-done is not done at all, and he has to come back ad nauseum. I've had dinner delayed because I have to guide him to make sure it's done correctly, but I'm trying to instill those habits!
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 11:11am | IP Logged
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There is Montessori practice that a work is not completed until it has been restored (that is *cleaned up*!). Among the steps of doing any job, the clean-up steps are part of the deal. Much easier to teach this as a habit to younger children, but all of us could use a refresher!
As others have said, focus on one area/habit at a time. I would sit down and walk the kids through the steps before the actual doing of those steps. Get a large piece of paper, ask the children how to do something, list the steps. If they skip something you know should be a step, leave a space on the paper and after they have named their steps have them guess what is missing. Fill it in. THEN, ask them to consult the list when they do the job. Inspect and correct.
You could make it a game at first - every child gets a jar to put an M&M into when they do the job right.
I know around our house it helps to think the job through before we attempt to actually do it.
Peace,
Nancy
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Erin
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MicheleQ wrote:
| This sort of thing has to start when they are small. If it hasn't it CAN be changed but it will take work. |
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This is really reassuring to know. So how do you make them CARE? To take pride? I can make them DO but I'd like them to have more heart in it. Maybe it is a boy thing??
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Erin
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 3:34pm | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
MicheleQ wrote:
| This sort of thing has to start when they are small. If it hasn't it CAN be changed but it will take work. |
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This is really reassuring to know. So how do you make them CARE? To take pride? I can make them DO but I'd like them to have more heart in it. Maybe it is a boy thing?? |
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Honesty Erin I'd just let that idea go. I spent a lot of time and frustration with my older boys trying to make them care but sometimes they just don't. I found that there is value in simply doing what has to be done. They don't have to like it but they still have to do it. It isn't harsh, it's just life. If I think about it there are plenty of things here in the home that are important to me and not my dh. He "cares" because he loves me but if it was just him he'd let a lot of it go. I see similar things in my boys house (three of them share a house). They are glad that I taught them HOW to cook, clean and do their laundry but I've seen their house on days that makes me wonder.
So teach them that it's important to you and makes life in the family run more smoothly and peacefully.
Keep in mind too that although it can be gender related it's also temperament related. Some of my boys are great at keeping things clean, others not so much but they were all taught the same, as are the girls.
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Michele Quigley
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JennGM
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I think with the boys we are conditioning a habit, right? It should get to a point where it doesn't have to be thought through, but a response -- if I make a mess, I clean it up, and thoroughly, not halfway. (I use terms like "No detective could find traces that you had been there." )
They probably won't care until they grow older and realize what a difference it makes. Dh is not a clean freak, but his foray into dorm life and sharing apartments was eye-opening, and also made him appreciate the formation he had.
Same with some other male friends...living with other people was enlightening on how differently they were raised, and it does spur them on to keep those good habits because it makes life a lot more comfortable. Easier to clean as we go than deal with a mountain of backlog!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Family in Feast and Feria
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MicheleQ
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JennGM wrote:
Dh is not a clean freak, but his foray into dorm life and sharing apartments was eye-opening, and also made him appreciate the formation he had.
Same with some other male friends...living with other people was enlightening on how differently they were raised, and it does spur them on to keep those good habits because it makes life a lot more comfortable. |
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Which would explain my dh since we were married right out of high school. He never had the chance to experience anything other than my stellar housekeeping skills! AND he went right into the military --talk about clean and orderly!
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Michele Quigley
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Erin
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| Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 8:00pm | IP Logged
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MicheleQ wrote:
Erin wrote:
MicheleQ wrote:
| This sort of thing has to start when they are small. If it hasn't it CAN be changed but it will take work. |
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This is really reassuring to know. So how do you make them CARE? To take pride? I can make them DO but I'd like them to have more heart in it. Maybe it is a boy thing?? |
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Honesty Erin I'd just let that idea go. I spent a lot of time and frustration with my older boys trying to make them care but sometimes they just don't. I found that there is value in simply doing what has to be done. They don't have to like it but they still have to do it. It isn't harsh, it's just life. |
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Michelle
This is very freeing to know, thank you! And I do agree with you about temperament, one of my dd's caring is not what I'd like. However at work (kebab shop) her boss told her see needed to be less meticulous and pick up her speed.
So I'll just keep the end goal in sight then.
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Erin
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Willa
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I don't know if this is how others do it and my kids don't have perfect habits but you asked for details. So here goes....
I am not easily bothered by disorder but when something has gotten to the action point I put it in front and center.
First, you state clearly to yourself what you want to see. "No more food left lying around after eating."
Then you make a plan which includes:
Checkpoints. ... precisely when you will check and what you will expect to see (this helps me since I can visualize things too vaguely if I don't take the time to think it through beforehand)
Making it as easy as possible to do things right (eg if you want a child to clean up spills, make sure she knows where the towels are and has walked through how to do the clean-up)
Consequences. ... which adds up to making it harder to NOT follow instructions than to follow them. But I think triumphant consequences make most spirited children resistant so you want them to be the kind of consequences that aren't particularly humbling, that aren't very hard for YOU to carry out, and that help the child do better next time.
So maybe a kid who has left a mess can be the on-call mess cleaner for an hour? But if that's going to be a huge hassle and relationship problem, I would think of something else.
Then you tell your objective and your plan to your kids. Sometimes it works to get the kids involved in the process of planning. "What would help you to remember to do this? What is keeping you from doing this? What do you think should happen if you don't?" But if your relationship with your kids isn't like that, I wouldn't try it that way. I would just try to anticipate possible problems -- and smooth them out so the kids don't have excuses to make.
Still there will probably be excuses you haven't previsioned. Some of them will have some validity and some won't. When my kids get to the argumentative stage I like to ask them how they think the problem should be solved. Generally speaking I don't like my energy to be drained so if a child is in arguing mode they can do something like write a list of all possible objections along with possible solutions. That way it is their energy being used, not mine.
Positive reinforcements -- I use them, but only in token form. Like a younger kid can have a Skittle if he remembers to put his shoes away without being told. That is how I got my 7 year old more aware of his habit off throwing off his shoes wherever he happened to be at the time. It harnessed his motivation until there was more of a habit.
Like Michele says, I think you have to go for one specific thing at a time.... like cleaning up food when eating, or putting the bathroom in shape after showering. Charlotte Mason said forming a new habit was equivalent to getting a kid through the measles.
I think it is discouraging to think of taking one tiny thing at a time and focusing on it so closely, but the thing is that if you follow one habit all the way through it sets up a pattern. The next time it's easier for the kids to know how to change a habit and it's also easier for you.
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Willa
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amyable
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Thank you all SO much. I am quietly digesting...and trying to think what ONE thing would be best to start on. Ugh, there are so many! I'll be back...
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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CatholicMommy
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I think you've received some great advice here :)
Just to point out a couple of things that stand out for me:
younger children (2-4) have a natural tendency to put/keep/want things in order - children younger than that have less control but NEED that order to establish their understanding of their environment - so this is a KEEN time for training.
Older children definitely will set the tone for the youngers - and sometimes THAT responsibility is enough to make them care (at least more than they might now! ). It gives them something tangible, and encourages them in responsibility and role-modeling.
I suggest taking one or two weeks and going slowly through your schedule - perhaps a time when you have fewer obligations outside the home or can otherwise cut some things out. During this time, focus on each clean-up time, so that each child knows what is expected. Let them know ahead of time what you'll be doing - that it's not a punishment, it's just the family pulling together to be more organized and neat about things (and bring in the responsibility and role-modeling with the older kids). Then slowly back off from there, providing reminders when needed. It will feel tedious, but pays off BIG TIME in the long run.
HTH!
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Pilgrim
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I do think that learning abilities/disabilities, personality, outside stressors(circumstances of that particular time in family life), and "age stages" all factor into this. We are going through a difficult time with dd of having to retrain and state over, and over, and over rules that have been pretty well known and followed. She has some difficulties, not so good at learning even in her studies, so this is a part of it, also a LOT going on right now, and then also one of those "age stages" (one I remember going through myself, mostly because I remember my poor mom having to tell me the same things I'm now telling dd!  ). I think the advice to pick one thing and work through it until it's solid, and then go onto another is great and what will keep one sane, and not overly frustrate you or dc.
This thread is very timely, and I'm glad you posted, sometimes it feels like my head is going to explode, too.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Instilling habit of clean up?
