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saigemom
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 3:34am | IP Logged
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discipline method do you use? What have you found to work best?
We are having some major lying and sneaking issues with our 7 yo. As in we can see him do something and as soon as he knows we see, he tries to pretend he didn't do it. Then when called over immediately starts saying he didn't do it. When he doesn't think his dad or I can see he purposely breaks rules we have.
He spaces out when you talk, loves doing extra chores, could care less about time out, doesn't care about loss of things........I honestly don't know what else to try.
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:13am | IP Logged
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Well, for sneakiness I explain to my dc that if I can't trust them, I can't let them do anything. For example, my dd was on the computer and went to a site that isn't already in the "favorites" list I set up for her. I could tell right away because of how she was sitting, trying to hide the screen from me. She lost her computer priveledges for a week and I explained that if I can't trust her on the computer, she can't be on it.
It sounds like you need to find something that would be a consequence. Seeing friends? Going to outside activities? computer time? Early bed time? TV? For my kids, if they are being sneaky I could also say "If I can't trust you, I can't let you play at ___'s house tomorrow" or "I can't take you to gymnastics" or whatever.
When it comes to lying, I've heard it's best not to ask a child if they did something when you know they didn't. A child in this situation will usually deny it to save themselves from punishment. It's more effective to say "I saw you threw the ball in the house so you will not go to basketball practice today" or something like that.
On another note, we learned early on that for 2 of our 5 kids, spanking was detrimental. For the oldest, we spanked him maybe twice in his life and it worked, it corrected the behavior (which was usually dangerous to warrant a spanking). For these other two, a spanking just creates a bitterness in their heart. They don't "get" the correlation to what they did wrong. They just see it as mom or dad trying to hurt them.  So for them, a consequence works better. I think, and this is not your question but my soapbox, that if a child gets spanked on a regular basis, the spankings aren't working. My dd ran into the street twice, got a spanking both times, and never did it again. My ds ran into the street on a regular basis and spankings did nothing. So, for my dd, spanking was effective. For my ds, all it did was hurt our relationship.
Sorry about the soap box. It's just something I feel strongly about.
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LucyP
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:25am | IP Logged
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Okay, this is just me, but here's what I would do with my 6yo (and also with my 2yo).
Say something like "Mama knows you used your hands to hit. I/dad/sibling saw/heard you do it. You are not allowed to do hit. It is against our rule of loving hands. You are a good boy and we want to se good behaviour to "snap" with you. I can't trust you at the moment. Come and stay with me." Child then shadows me, for however long I deem appropriate. Not really as a punishment - after a minute or two of being cool with them I start interacting normally again, and we just are together.
Then later I will recap and say "You are a good boy. We want good behaviour to snap with you being a good boy. In our family do we hit? That's right, our rule is loving hands. You don't feel good inside when you do something wrong. God loves to see you being such a loving, gentle boy." And then we do apology and forgiveness and cuddles between those involved.
We actually do a bit more talking than I would prefer as our son has a lot of issues with how "bad" he is (due to being adopted and feeling thrown away ) so we do a lot of emphasizing that he is actually good. When he has done something wrong he can get in such a state about having failed and being bad that no discipline works - for us being with us so he can be safe and calm and connected works very well.
would do some talking about why we have rules, get his input (the children helped make our rules) and also try to work out what is at the root of all this for him. He must know that you know he has done x, and yet he is pretending not - is it to get attention, being overwhelmed with shame/guilt, a sense of fear, genuinely not getting the rules, a desire to relieve his feelings by inappropriate behaviour?
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CrunchyMom
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Just so you know, I think that you could even use resources that are not anti-spanking since many people would not spank a seven year old anyway.
You might check out Laying Down the Rails and its section on lying. Charlotte Mason, being the living literature advocate she is, recommends reading stories that incorporate a particular virtue.
I think I would try to read stories about heroically honest people as well as liars, but I don't think you need to talk about it every time as related to your son. You say he spaces out during lectures anyway. Just let stories stand for themselves.
I like the Hillaire Belloc's Cautionary Tales like "Matilda the Girl Who Told Lies and Was Burnt to Death" but I realize some might think it overly harsh.
I imagine the Book of Virtues has some stories that exhibit honesty fairly explicitly.
Perhaps get some stories of George Washington and Honest Abe to bring into American History.
The Catholic Treasure Books have a couple of stories about lying, one that I recall off the top of my head is about a boy who habitually told lies and his mother kept praying for him to learn to be honest and it happened that every time he tried to tell a lie, he crowed like a rooster.
Also, I imagine you are beginning sacramental prep with him at this age. You may find some resources in something like the Fr. Lovasik books regarding examination of conscience for first confession that would help you talk about it with your son.
With Lent coming up, you might set up a system for trying to always tell the truth during Lent modifying a method like the crown of thorns or a sacrifice jar to specifically emphasize this particular virtue. Maybe either put in a thorn for the times you lie and take one out for telling the truth in a spot or something like that so he can visually see how much he is being dishonest and how much that hurts Jesus and his family. Of course, everyone in the family could be assigned a virtue/vice for Lent only his happens to be honesty if you don't want to single him out that way.
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Chris V
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 10:04am | IP Logged
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How unbelievably frustrating!!!! I just lost my entire post that I spent writting. ugh! Is anyone else have problems with this?
I think I've lost 5 posts now!
...so sorry. I will take the time to respond again, after everyone's breakfast.
Sheesh. Talk about frustrating!
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 10:07am | IP Logged
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Chris,
There seems to be a board-wide problem with posting. Only very short posts are getting posted.
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 10:08am | IP Logged
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We'll have to be patient and let our technical guru take a look. 
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Jen Mackintosh
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Wildflowers and Marbles
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 10:46am | IP Logged
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Chris V wrote:
| I just lost my entire post that I spent writting. ugh! Is anyone else have problems with this? |
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Tim says the problem should be fixed...back to chatting!
Saigemom,
I have just a minute...but I've been where you are. A few things we did:
** Don't invite dialogue and provide an opportunity for more lying. It seems to elevate the problem and the solution. If you see that something has been done (lying/deceit)...simply state it, "I saw you do "x" behavior. The consequence is "y". Period.
** Natural consequences work! Sit down tonight with your husband and brainstorm a few things that mean a lot to your son...he may seem apathetic and indifferent, but trust your gut...if he LOVES "y" privilege, take it away until behavior is more in line with your rules. Be indifferent about it yourself. Privilege removed. Moving on.
** Once you've got some handy natural consequences in your back pocket try to spend some time connecting dots in his behavior.
:: Do these episodes revolve around sibling jealousy?
:: Underlying behavioral concerns?
:: Is he looking for attention?
:: Is this a child that will bend over backwards to please you...and thus knows that "x" act is displeasing...so is deceitful because the child thinks he is sparing you displeasure?
See what I mean? Spend some time trying to figure out why this is going on and do what you can to address that long term/big picture issue, while simultaneously enforcing simple consequences with a behavior. Try to get to the consequence BEFORE lying/sneaking takes place. Don't invite a response that sets him up to lie. If you catch him in a lie, be simple and straightforward again, "You lied about "x". In addition to the punishment for "x" behavior, you will now lose privileges for telling the lie. I love you. I will love you even when you make a mistake. I always want you to tell me the truth."
 to you! I've been in this rough spot with a child that needed and longed so much to please that this child would be deceitful if that meant sparing me displeasure. Once I finally figured out what was going on it took a lot of work to make a course correction for this child, and to train myself not to set this child, or any of our children, up for a lie/deceit. In addition to working on this, I had to actively go out of my way to make sure that said child's love tank was always on full, that this child knew that they were unconditionally loved because I was coming down hard and firm with other consequences. I hope some of this makes sense. I'll pray for you!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 10:48am | IP Logged
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I lost mine, too. It was long and now I can't remember it!
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JodieLyn
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oh yes, with my oldest and natural consequences.. you generally know you're getting her in a sensitive area when she claims that she doesn't care about something anyway. It's a defensive mechanism to keep others from seeing that she's vulnerable I think. So just ignore what they say and do what you know.
Another consequence could be writing sentences. Maybe looking up particular words in the dictionary and writing out the definitions.
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Maggie
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Well...time out is sometimes effective here...and sometimes not.
What we have found to be most effective is not taking away things she enjoys...but making her "sit out" while being in the presence of others...
And this takes major parental discipline.
For instance, this weekend we had an older home schooled child at our home who brought her 5yo sister to entertain our children. Our dd has terrible problems with hitting/kicking us (my dh and I). I clearly explained to her that if she did that, I would take her friends home. She did a few hours into the day, and I took her friends home. That was terrible for dh and I because we were getting household projects done so that we can rent the place...but we needed to make an impression.
Today, she has already hit again...multiple times. She is supposed to be going to the park with her brother and me and some friends. We WILL go to the park...but she will sit on the bench the WHOLE TIME with me, due to the severity of her offense.
If we just kept her and her brother at home, honestly, it wouldn't bother her that much...she would just find something else to do...but in the face of being with her friends...and then not being able to play with them...and having to watch them have fun...it hits her harder, no pun intended. :) Of course, I will bring a few books for her to look at, but she will not get to play. As nice as it would be for me to just let her run and have some adult time with the other mom, I need to discipline my daughter first.
You need to find your child's currency. We were taking away dessert and computer time and tv shows...to no avail. Of course, my dd enjoys all these things, but as she said to me, "That's ok. I'll just watch tv tomorrow." She can hold out and wait.
Find out what is so valuable to your son...and that is what needs to be used as leverage.
This idea came out of innumerable counseling sessions with Dr. Greg Popcak (who is also against corporal punishment) because our dd is more than a handful. We had some very serious issues with her, but for us, spanking is not an option. So we need to be very creative.
Another idea from Dr. Ray Guarendi is that if your child commits A. offense, then he loses out on other privileges...like dining with the family at a restaurant. He brings a bag lunch. A P&B sandwich...something totally unexciting.
Or...does he have to have a uniform cleaned for practice? A way to get to sports? Not anymore...the Dr. Ray concept of "black out" is pretty effective, I would imagine, for older children. You could probably google that.
But more than creativity, it takes a ton of discipline on my husband's and my part to follow-through and be consistent. When I let up and let her get away with things (like after my 2 miscarriages), I noticed a huge change for the worse in her behavior...because it was just easier for me to not follow through.
That's just us, though...but I do think you need to find your child's "currency"...it sounds like you haven't quite found that yet.
Good luck! I know how hard it is to have a challenging child.
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saigemom
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Thank you all for your responses. You have definately given me some things to think about.
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drmommy
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Oh, yes, find your child's currencies, or "carrots" as I call it. The dangling carrot in front of a horse/mule! Spanking did NOT work for the 7 of us, so I chose not to spank. It works too...using the carrots. My son likes food and rides. He gets a little mouthy, I ignore it. Then, he will ask me for a ride the next day..."sorry son, not gonna happen. Due to the disrespect of yesterday, I just can't do it." That's it. No yelling, etc. It works, and I hold my ground. He is 17, a very good and holy, strong young man, so I know it is working. I use bike riding for my 12 year old (her offense is usually not finishing her chores), no animal volunteering for the 10 year old, and in the room for the hyper 7 year old. I have only used these measures a few times. I am physically unable to yell (I have a soft voice) and do not "do" spanking...however, these methods work for us. Here comes the bragging....I feel my children are compassionate, thoughtful, and great decision-makers.
I actually got this idea from Parenting with Grace by Popcak. When there was a research done by someone in regards to who went out on a limb to save the Jew/Catholics from the Nazis and who didn't...those who were given corporal punishments as a child were less likely to risk their lives to save others. Those who were not given corporal punishment when they were younger, had more compassion....and were more likely to save others.
I just thought that was so interesting! I came from a family of 7, and I am the only one who keeps in contact with the living parent. The other 6 are so bitter, and none have retained the faith...and we were given corporal punishment, not abused.
So, for our family, we have chosen a different path, and it is working.
I realize that all have different paths, so prayerfully discern what is best for your family.
God bless you. I just love reading these wonderful and helpful responses.
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saigemom
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I have Parenting with Grace...maybe I need to revisit it.
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SuzanneG
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Another book that's good for this sort of problem-solving and brainstorming is Parenting with Love and Logic.
If we see a child do something and they lie about it, we say, "Madeleine, you DID take your sister's XXX, now what are you going to do about it?"
When you DON'T see them doing something:
::There is a difference with saying "I don't believe you and You're a liar.
Parenting with Love and Logic wrote:
| Kids don't have a comeback to it ("I don't believe you") -- they simply can only defend their honesty. We're not calling them liars; we're simply stating that we don't believe them. That makes them do the thinking. |
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Marcia
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Please consider reading Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. and Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld. Read these through the lens of your Catholic faith.
Also look at your world view. We see children as a gift from God as Catholics. We begin to parent them with the idea that we are teaching them with our behavior so that they can begin to learn about God. I find that God has been gracious and just to me with unconditional love. This is hard as humans to give, but it gives a glimpse at what we might be called to do with our children.
Remember the child is whole, not just their behavior. Sometimes there is a need behind a behavior that we categorize as "bad". What is that need in your child? Only you and your child can find that answer. Giving the child extra time and love to discover it together is one way to create more attachment between you two.
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Marcia
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Barbara C.
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You could also try a little tomato-staking, even though i would personally find it completely annoying to me. But maybe they would find it completely annoying as well. 
We've done time-out and taking away privileges. I'm starting to incorporate writing as well.
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Barbara
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saigemom
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Barbara C.- What is tomato-staking?????
 I keep trying to picture it and I'm pretty sure I'm not getting there
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JodieLyn
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There's a whole website about that.. I don't remember what the website is anymore.. but it's basically that you keep the child with you, in the same room.. they can sit outside the bathroom door while you're inside.. but keep them right there under your eye AT ALL TIMES. They can't do anything without you being able to correct it right away. But it also gives them lots of interaction and positive attention. It's not so much a punishment (you don't act mad with them ect) as it is simply a way to deal with a chronic problem. You can deal with it much more effectively when it happens than coming up after the fact.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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Mackfam
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I'm hoping Barbara can chime in and confirm. I've never used this site, but I've heard them mentioned here before. I think she was referring to Raising Godly Tomatoes.
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Jen Mackintosh
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Those of you that don't spank, what
