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Lisbet
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| Posted: Nov 14 2009 at 10:50am | IP Logged
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So we will have 2.5 acres, none of it fenced in - I am so used to letting my littles out to play while I putz around the house since our yard is so small and fenced in - how will I handle this when we move? And the dog?? And, those of you with chickens, how will I train the dog to leave the chickens alone? Stupid questions, I know, but I never lived out of the city with children...
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Nov 14 2009 at 11:46am | IP Logged
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I'm a country gal, Lisa!  Can I just tell you how overjoyed I am for you!!!! I know you've been waiting, hoping, and praying for this for so long!!!
We own 3 acres, but most of the acreage around us is unoccupied. We're also frequently at our my laws with a total of 120-ish acres (forest, swamp, river, pasture, creeks, natural spring) on which to explore and romp about. And, I was raised on a 10 acre farm which is still home!
Our 3 acres is not fenced...and we just let the kids play!! I am a little more restrictive when it comes to our littlest being out there, so I follow the buddy system for her - she's assigned a buddy to watch after her. I think that would be a good idea for your littles for a little while. Seriously though, let those kids run and enjoy that elbow room! Here's what I'd suggest when you get out there...
You and dh walk the property carefully noting...
:: poison ivy
:: any holes that might be used by snakes or vermin
:: bramble bushes
:: climbing trees
:: areas that collect or hold water that could be dangerous for littles?
:: sandy areas? loose dirt? be careful...wild cats/wandering cats probably use that as a litter box and little people always-always go there first!
:: junk that is dangerous and in need of clearing
:: small thickets or underbrush that might be used by smallish wildlife - try not to disturb these if you can help it! It will be a great area to visit for nature walks!
:: observe bird and wildlife behavior as you walk. Quiet observation sometimes lets you know if they're feeling protective of an area and then you can let the kids know why and how to avoid areas.
Then, I'd immerse myself in nature study in the back yard with the children!!! Identify:
:: mushrooms/fungi that are common in your yard (noting particularly those that are dangerous/poisonous)
:: birds that are common - one of THE FIRST things I'd set up as soon as I had my kitchen in order is a bird feeder and bird watching area in the house! (I'm just so excited for you!!!)
:: start a nature journal for drying leaves/wildflowers collected from your yard!
:: identify your trees!
:: any water sources? ponds? creeks? It's fun to do a pond water study.
:: start a fun compost pile/worm bin
:: let a small area in the back naturalize and make observations weekly.
:: plan some gardens
Now, as to the dog...I'd probably just keep him on a leash for a bit until you can assess the lay of the land a bit more. I would normally suggest an underground fence. My in laws have one for their two dogs, but the underground fence fences in 2 acres that is already within their fenced acreage. We considered/are still considering an underground fence here (it's waaaaaaay expensive to do a standard fence on 3 acres!), but the big concern is that our dog couldn't get out and other dogs could get in. We do have a pack of wild coyote out here so this would be a big concern. What we will likely do if we ever get another dog is to fence a big portion of the back for our dog to run in. You can do some focused dog training though and train the dog to the boundaries of the yard so that they stay in those boundaries when you're out with them.
The relationship between dogs and chickens depends a lot on the type of dog you have and the built in instincts God gave it...for example, if you have a herding breed they're likely to just try to keep your chickens (and your children) herded into a tiny group where they think you want them. Our last dog was a German Shepherd (such a great dog!) and all he did was run around and try to herd the kids back together.  It was funny to watch. He could only relax when they were all playing together on the swings or something! Typically, if the dog feels the chickens are a part of his *herd/family* he won't bother them...if he views them as prey...the chickens are history.
HTH!!! When's moving day? 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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lapazfarm
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Jennifer gave excellent advice, as always. My kids and pets have always (until now)been free-range!LOL!
The only thing I'd add is that until you can get a fence up for the dog, you could put up a zip-line type run for him. They work very well as a temporary solution. Just make sure he gets some supervised off-leash time too and have the kiddos run around with him. You can move the line around every week or so also, for variety and cleanliness.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
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molly
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we are fencing in part of our yard for Zelie before next summer. She is the first toddler I have had since we moved here, and I cannot have her running all over this property 
You can start searching now for Freecycle picket fencing or Craigslist.
Depending on your dog, you may not have any problems with the chickens. Our Sheltie has never bothered ours, we did however have a rat terrier that managed to wipe out all our poultry needless to say that dog no longer lives here.
I too am soooooo happy for you and Tony! You will love getting out of town and letting that brood run and play 
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Angel
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Lisa, I couldn't resist your subject line.
Jen covered a lot of, um, territory (ok, couldn't resist that either), but I'll add that whether you're more or less relaxed in your approach to outdoor supervision also will also have something to do with the neighbors and whether or not *their* animals are fenced, leashed, or ok with your kids (and chickens)... and whether or not the property is located on a busy road (or how close to the road it is).
We have 15 unfenced acres, backing onto more woods, but with a lot of frontage onto a busy road. The 13 yo, 10 yo, and 6 yo go out by themselves (the 6 yo has to stay closer to the house if his older brother and sister aren't out), but if I send the 4 yo twins out with the bigger kids, they know that they are to stay in the back yard or garden area because anywhere else is too close to the road. If no big kids are out, we did fence in a small area of yard by our deck (when the twins were small and I was pregnant with our now 2 yo, because the twins would run in opposite directions) so the little boys (ages 4 and 2) can play in that area by themselves with no one else outside and I can watch them out the kitchen window. I will leave the 2 yo outside with the 10 or 13 yos for small amounts of time, but usually not too long because I just don't like that road.
I try to get outside with the little boys at least once a day, twice if the weather's good. Housework suffers, I guess, but I'd rather the little ones were able to roam. 
Other rules: No one is allowed to go in the woods during hunting season, and my dd -- who tends to head off into the woods without telling anybody where she's going -- now must tell me where she is going before she leaves, especially if she's not going with her brother.
We don't have a dog, so I can't help with dogs and chickens. Our chickens are very, very free-range and so far we haven't had too many problems with them staying within the bounds of about 2.5 acres... but they do range *all* over those acres, onto the driveway, the front porch, the patio, the patio furniture... if you don't fence the chickens in, expect to deal with chicken poop, dug up flower beds and potted plants, etc. (One of my 2 yo's first words was actually "chicken poop". He learned early to identify it, which didn't mean that he learned early to not touch it, I'm afraid. Sigh.)
We do have trouble sometimes with the chickens going on the road and occasionally wandering into the neighbor's yard. Usually someone (or me) is dispatched to chase them back. We did have one chicken hit by a car. They don't go into the road too much anymore, but we did figure out that it's worse when it rains... I guess they were eating smashed worms and slugs.  So we tend to keep them in the coop (it has a small run) on wet days.
You know, the funny thing was, when we first moved here, the kids (only 3 of them then, ages 8,6, and 2) would not move beyond the bounds of a typical suburban yard. I grew up in the country, and I would say to them, "Look! You've got all this room to run around in! Use it!" It took them a while to get used to the space. (Although that doesn't mean that they don't still squabble about the same 10 feet when they're playing in the dirt, etc., to which we always say the same thing, "You have 15 ACRES. Spread out!")
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Angela
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Paula in MN
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You should check with the zoning regulations in your area. We have over 80 acres and none of it is fenced. But, our county is very strict about leash laws and our dogs have to be in their large kennel or on a leash, even on our own property. It is a hefty fine, one I'm not willing to pay.
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Maddie
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You'll develop a sixth sense about where your children are once you get familiar with your house and property. I come down hard on anyone who doesn't follow the outside rules, we live on an old dairy farm with silos and once they where climbing a silo. ONCE. 
Watch for broken tiles, I had a little fall in some holes created by a broken tile, very scary.
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Bridget
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Our dog is a lab so asking him to refrain from going after chickens is a bit much. We have a large dog run and the chickens have netting over the coop yard so they only get out to free range when the kids leave the door open during chicken duties.
My kids have strict guidelines about how close to the road they can get and I enforce swiftly and firmly. The older kids help watch of course.
Your going to love it Lisa!
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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MNMommy
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Maddie wrote:
| You'll develop a sixth sense about where your children are once you get familiar with your house and property. |
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Totally agree with this. I grew up on a diary farm, and we roamed at VERY young ages. We just moved to a five acre farmette. At first I followed my littlest two around, but now we all know the property so my 3yo can go out by himself and my 1yo can wander around by herself when I'm outside.
This summer when I was mowing the lawn (4+ hour job), the kids all played together in various parts of the yard. I had intermittent visuals on them as I mowed around the lawn areas, and I didn't have any trouble with any of them wandering off unsafely.
It helps to have destinations for them. They designated one of our trees as their climbing and digging spot - it's a mudbox (as opposed to a sandbox ). We also have kittens in our largest barn. Now that the weather is a little colder, the youngest two don't venture further than those destinations. My 5yo will go exploring in the orchard or grove, but not regularly. We don't have a dog yet, so I don't know if the littlest ones would follow a dog to areas I wouldn't want them to go.
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Jennifer
Tired mom to - 10yo dd, 7yo ds, 6yo ds, 4yo dd, 2yo ds
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lilac hill
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While traing the dog maybe let the chickens out to free range in the afternoon when the dog can be kept inside, the hens go to roost in the evening then the dog can go out.
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Viv
Wife to Rick (7/83), Mom to dd#1(6/87), dd#2(1/90), and dd#3(6/94) in central PA.
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Bookswithtea
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Lisbet, we moved with small children to our 2.5 acres just under 5 yrs ago. What surprised me is that the littles mostly stuck around the house in the beginning. They need to get their bearings as well. That said, we use the same buddy system Jen describes above. And I generally don't let children out to play without an older sibling until they are 4. Its a pain, but its worth it. Our lab would *definitely* chase our chickens. Our chickens are fenced in a large run attached to their coop because I'd rather let them free range within reason (safer for the chickens because of wild animals, too) than tie up the dog. Plus, sometimes fully free ranged chickens decide to lay in random places other than their nest boxes, and I am not in the mood for a daily Easter egg hunt, kwim?
Another option for your dog that is much less expensive than underground wiring is a wireless unit. Our dog is on one and its brilliant. We got ours at TSC. Ours is plugged into the garage and then we determined a circle around our house that we wanted it to work on. It took about 2 weeks to train the dog with flags and tossing him bologna on the other side of the flags to tempt him to cross over. Even dumb but happy labs figure out its not worth it. After 3 yrs on the unit, when his battery goes dead he doesn't even notice because he never tests his boundaries anymore. I think we paid about $300 for it? This is also much easier than the work involved in burying the underground wire.  I like it because the dog has plenty of room to run freely, but he is also able to guard the house.
Its an adjustment, but its wonderful. Let me know if you decide to get a Dexter. I am soooooooooooo wanting one after you posted that link!
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Mackfam
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Another option for your dog that is much less expensive than underground wiring is a wireless unit. |
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Oh! I so appreciate hearing how that has worked for your dog so well, Books! I was wondering about that option!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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molly
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Lisa, you want dexters? I missed this. We raise Dexters, you can come down and visit ours, we have cows due to calf in the spring and later summer. We LOVE out Dexters.
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Bookswithtea
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molly wrote:
| Lisa, you want dexters? I missed this. We raise Dexters, you can come down and visit ours, we have cows due to calf in the spring and later summer. We LOVE out Dexters. |
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Do you raise them for meat or milk? It came up on a raw milk thread a few weeks ago. Can I pm you to chat more about this?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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Mackfam wrote:
Oh! I so appreciate hearing how that has worked for your dog so well, Books! I was wondering about that option! |
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My mom says she read that they don't always work compared to underground wires, but our experience was very successful. When we bought it, our lab was about 1 yr old, and he came from the shelter. He was completely untrained and would bolt into our neighbors pond and our other neighbors horse corrals. And he refused to come back, too. He wasn't quite a Marley, but he was a stinker. We just followed the training directions in the unit carefully, and we did have to make sure the shock would get through his heavy fur or he would think it was worth it. Ugh. The thing I didn't like about the underground wire is that it punishes the dog when he returns by zapping him when he crosses the line back to home. The wireless unit doesn't do that.
One thing you do have to watch out for is that it doesn't work if your power goes out.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Angel
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About Dexters... if we could get in a place where we were closer to our family, I wouldn't mind having some Dexters either. The farmer we buy beef from is trying to establish a breeding herd.
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Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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JodieLyn
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Just one caution.. watch your children before you think they won't wander far.
Some can have a very long (for a mom) comfort zone. So while many children will stay close regardless.. there are some that won't.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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molly
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Both Books! feel free to pm me!
we love the milk and the bulls are keot for 18 mos then to the freezer.
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juststartn
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We have ten acres. And dogs. And chickens.
What kind of dog you have, will determine how to handle the chicken issue. One easy way, would be chicken tractors. Look into those. Seriously. Fairly easy to build, easy to move, and they don't have to be expensive. You get the advantage of not having to have an official "coop" for them (well, we have a coop for ours now, but we let them free-range now that the dogs are trained).
As per the fencing issue...much will also depend on that, on your neighbors, etc. Our neighbors are cows. So, we have the fencing that came with the property (cattle fencing), and our dogs roam. I'm sure that they go onto neighbor's property (just because of how the property boundaries are set up). But that has not been an overwhelming concern for us.
The main concern with the dog, depending on what sort of an area you are moving to, is what your neighborhood is like. Is it full of folks who want a "suburban country" lifestyle, with their 2 acres, house, and maybe an outbuilding, with no garden, no chickens, and God forbid, children's toys in the yard? Or is it full of folks who actually put in fruit trees, berry bushes, kitchen gardens, etc, who actually USE the land they are shelling out for? One type of person is more likely to be understanding if your dog gets onto their property. The other will not be. If the dog gets onto the property of someone with livestock, and bothers the livestock or kills their chickens, etc, do not be surprised if your dog simply does not come back one day. A common theme in the country (if they know the dog is yours, and talking to you does not work) is the 3 S's. Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up. Or worse, poison, traps, etc. Their livestock is worth more than your dog. I know, you love your dog dearly. And a good dog, is a great thing. We've got 1 1/2, ourselves (the other 1/2 of the dog in question really likes to attack tires. Don't know why). I know you are trying to think now, about how best to protect your dog, and your neighbors from your dog...
I'd suggest, when you do get another dog (cause we all do, sooner or later) that you get a young one, that can be trained to leave the birds alone. Get a non-herding, non-hunting dog. We have a border collie/blue heeler mix...and a Great Pyrenees. The Pyr has NEVER had a problem with the birds free-ranging, but we've had to work HARRRDDDD on our mix. Its as if he herds until one of the birds does something that switches on his hunting dog switch...sigh. But the two of them are protective of the birds and the property. And us. Which is what I really really want, given the predators we have around us (lots of coyotes and hawks, etc).
As far as the children...well, we are far enough from the road that we really don't have too much of a problem with that concern. I don't let the children go into the pastures much (snakes and coyotes, not to mention the steer we have in the front pasture, with his horns)....but they are all over the yard, in the chicken coop, in the garden, etc. They climb trees, ride their bikes, jump on the trampoline...but that is what I let the older three do without any real outside supervision...the younger two don't go outside without me or DH. Mostly because of the fact that they *will* wander off, and *have* wandered off (I was cooking dinner and the dds ran outside to meet daddy--next thing I know, the boys are out near the driveway following their sisters--so I'd recommend some good, strong door latches, higher than usual, just so little ones cannot let themselves out). But we also don't let them out alone because of our geese. And our rooster. He's been a perfect gentleman so far, but I don't trust him any farther than I can throw him. And the geese make no bones about it, they take anyone under 4 feet tall as a potential lackey, and they *will* take you on.
Even though we have Embdens, and they are less aggressive than other breeds, well, they are still geese.
Anyway, we moved out here (rural OK) 1 1/2 yr ago. And are still settling in...if you have any other questions, let me know!
Rachel
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Super stupid country living ?
