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SaraP
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| Posted: Feb 18 2009 at 10:15am | IP Logged
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How to you respond when you tell a child to do something and he completely ignores you?
I am very consistent about going to the child in question, making eye contact and usually having him repeat what he is supposed to do back to me. And, not surprisingly I guess, he complies fairly well when there is an immediate, acceptable logical consequence (because he has usually experience the consequence enough times to want to avoid it), but I am having a hard time addressing the situations where there isn't because in those situations he essentially pretends he didn't hear me.
Any ideas?
ETA that I am not comfortable with any kind of corporal punishment and the child in question just turned 6.
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Anne McD
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What I've found works with my kids is if I say, "if you don't do X, then you don't get Y." If its something they usually get like a movie in the afernoon and you feel its too big a punishment for one infraction, you could make it a three strikes you're out situation. For instance, every time the child ignores you, you can tell him that its strike one, etc, until he gets to three and you pull the privilidge.
Just an idea. My oldest does this to me sometimes, and I try to remind him that its really worth his while to pay attention to me. 
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Stephanie_Q
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Have you heard of Dr. Ray Guarendi? He has a concept called "blackout". The kids don't get any privileges until they obey. If they want to play outside, have a snack, play with a toy, read a book, etc. my answer is, "As soon as you do what I said..." (It used to be "Not until you..." but I'm trying to be more positive.) I either sit them on the stairs or keep them at my side until they're ready to obey.
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Rachel May
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I make eye contact and say "Yes Mommy I will" and they must repeat it in an agreeable tone and then I walk behind them to assure the thing is done. After a while, just having them say "yes, Mommy, I will" was enough to get the thing done. Then just the look on my face (one of surprise and expectation) was enough to get them to say it which was enough to get them to do it.... 
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 18 2009 at 2:34pm | IP Logged
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I make the request.
**if no response**
Prompt with, "If you heard me, please say 'yes, mommy.'"
**still no response**
I follow that with an if-then statement, for example, "if you do not tidy the blocks, then they will live in my closet for a month."
**still no response**
If the child still doesn't move, I go to the child (or I might already be there), take his hand gently - not with force or anger - and let him know that since he cannot obey me on his own, I will help him obey. We pick up the blocks together with me guiding his hand (this is very annoying to the child) and then we walk and put the blocks away in my closet.
It doesn't take much of the "guided helping" to convince a child that I mean business and then the if-then statements are quite compelling as well.
ETA - I require the yes, mommy response as well. I think it is courteous and polite and often jogs a small person who is completely focused on another activity into the world where you are just through the response.
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Willa
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| Posted: Feb 18 2009 at 2:45pm | IP Logged
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SaraP wrote:
Quote:
I am having a hard time addressing the situations where there isn't because in those situations he essentially pretends he didn't hear me.
Any ideas? |
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Your six year old sounds like mine.
Two things that have worked for me with his older siblings:
One is to have a chill out time when his ears have turned off. My husband does this very well -- very matter of fact. You fetch the child physically (gently) if you have to and then he has to sit next to you until he thinks he can remember to listen more carefully next time. Then back into action, but if it happens again it's a longer cooling time, etc.
A variation is to "practice" calling. A child who has a habit of not listening has to run through several trial calls and responses successfully before he can go back to his playing or whatever it is he is doing. This doesn't have to be grim -- it can be sort of a joke, but it makes the point and is sort of a logical consequence "you are having trouble hearing me so let's run through it a few times until you think you've got it down".
I usually ask the child if he thinks he can do better next time. If he says "yes" but still seems to be squirming, avoiding my eyes, half-laughing like he's not really paying attention he has to stay with me longer. The goal is that he realizes it's more inconvenience to NOT listen than to listen.
Something else that's more proactive is to make sure and sometimes call when you want to do something nice for or with him. For example, you make a habit of calling sometimes in order to give the child a snack or a hug or tell him a joke, whatever works with that kid (basically something that is a nice interaction for the kid). Making a habit of calling sometimes for "good things" tunes the child's hearing -- he doesn't associate Mom's call just with reminders or have-to's, things that are negative for him.
ETA I was thinking you were talking about the kind of situation where the kid is playing and doesn't want to have to stop to hear something he doesn't want to hear. So this is more targeted to that kind of situation.
If I know the child has already listened but is still not complying, it would be different. If Paddy says "I won't pick up my puzzle" I would have him pick it up but then probably have him pick up some extra things in addition for extra practice.
I do the "yes, mama" too. It's amazing how a mom can (sometimes) stop a "No I WON'T" and reverse it utterly just by saying, "Say Yes, Mama!" I learned that from my friend Chari! It works beautifully with Aidan -- sometimes he completely forgets he had already said no and he turns willingly to doing the thing he said he wouldn't do. Paddy is not quite so reversable but if he has to say "yes" it usually makes him seem a little ashamed of his defiance before.
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SaraP
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| Posted: Feb 18 2009 at 2:57pm | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
| If I know the child has already listened but is still not complying, it would be different. If Paddy says "I won't pick up my puzzle" I would have him pick it up but then probably have him pick up some extra things in addition for extra practice. |
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It's this kind of situation that I am having trouble with - the times when I know he has heard because he has already said, "Yes, Mommy" and usually repeated my direction back to me, but has then gone off and ignored the direction anyway.
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: Feb 18 2009 at 5:35pm | IP Logged
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Yes, that is the situation we are dealing with... right now. This moment. Grrr.
I go through the steps of above with "no (whatever privilege is being sought) until such and such is done" - especially after hearing the "yes mommy" and then he's off doing something else - then there's extra stuff if it's not done quickly (which sometimes backfires, because it becomes too much - I'm working on the balance of it all, but I really want him to respond right away and SEE that it's a good thing - at least better than putting it off!). And a bad attitude gets extra work too. Going to bed is always an option, but then there is nothing - no toys, no lights, no books, nothing. I hate when I have to do that, but sometimes...
ETA: I also do the hand-holding/moving thing whenever needed (but I stretch it out as long as possible, because I would hate someone doing that with me! - but when I do it, it works!)
I came from a spanking family and I'm not entirely opposed to it, but I don't want to fall into it as a catch-all either - so I'm really trying hard to cultivate a positive home where children WANT to obey, and look forward to doing so - and where everyone just has respect for one another's dignity.
I also do the positive calling on a regular basis - "just because" - hugs, kisses, treats, just to see his smile, etc. He does it back to me too. And I have to remember to respond, not put him off when I know he's calling me over just to say, "Look at my face, mommy!" (that means he's smiling and happy). :)
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Maddie
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I also require a "Yes, Momma" from my children. If they don't follow through and it's due to disobedience I have said, "Oh, I see. You're not sure how to do (whatever the direction was), let me help you/show you." And I'll take them by the hand and help them/or make them do it. Whatever the situation calls for. If they resist, I still make them do it with my help. Usually, they get the clue and jump to it.
This way I don't spank, but I'm still firm with the follow through. They must obey. As I am helping them I will remind them how important obedience is by telling them a story of obedience, like the story of Adam and Eve....
Then I thank them for their help. I try to be as cheerful/ and "helpful" as possible to them. Since I have a lot of big guys my little ones hate looking like babies with Momma helping them. Some peer pressure can be good.
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Willa
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| Posted: Feb 18 2009 at 9:39pm | IP Logged
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SaraP wrote:
| It's this kind of situation that I am having trouble with - the times when I know he has heard because he has already said, "Yes, Mommy" and usually repeated my direction back to me, but has then gone off and ignored the direction anyway. |
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Personally I found Charlotte Mason's advice helpful:
"To secure this habit of obedience, the mother must exercise great self-restraint; she must never give a command which she does not intend to see carried out to the full. And she must not lay upon her children burdens, grievous to be borne, of command heaped upon command."
This gave me two things to think about. One is that when a child tended to be not yet completely obedient, I need to make sure my commands came only when I was sure that the issue would result in his compliance. So I kept my commands quite few and then carried them through very consistently until the child had a habit of compliance. Basically the habit of always obeying a direct command is WAY more important to me than any other habit at that time of life.
The second thing is that I take advantage of times when my child is in a cooperative eager mood to make "commands" that are fun for him to carry out. Most strong willed children have some times when they love to shoulder the responsibility for doing something challenging but rewarding. Aidan loves to carry in firewood -- so I can "command" that and he feels really good about obeying. Paddy would NOT love that but he will happily do something like carry a chewable vitamin to his sibling. So sort of the same thing as with the "good calling", but getting them used to the feeling of willingness in response to a request.
I figure that if my child NEVER wins the "don't listen" battle -- if he ALWAYS has extra inconvenience and ends up doing it anyway, AND if I can keep from yelling or getting visibly frustrated -- then I am staying ahead of the game. He is not consolidating his habit of being rewarded for not listening. In the end, the habit of not-listening dies out for lack of nourishment.
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SaraP
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| Posted: Feb 19 2009 at 2:04pm | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
| Basically the habit of always obeying a direct command is WAY more important to me than any other habit at that time of life. |
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And that's the rub, I think.
I agree that at 6 the habit of obedience is top priority, but my goodness I am tired of working on it with this child!
I want to move on and have less of our time and energy taken up with basic compliance so that we can work on other, more interesting (less maddening) things.
But there's no quick fix, is there?
I'm glad to know it's normal 6yo behavior, though. My oldest is only 7, but he is much, much more of a people-pleaser so obedience wasn't nearly the struggle with him as it is with DS2.
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Connections
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| Posted: Feb 20 2009 at 12:50pm | IP Logged
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Are you sure he is motivated to disobey? Sometimes the child is so caught up in their own thoughts and actions that, even with a "yes, mommy" they don't really hear.
I recently read "Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer" by Spears (based on recommendations on this board) and it was REALLY eye-opening. I don't remember specific parenting advice for obedience but it did help me to understand my child much better. I am always able to parent better when I understand what is happening with my child. Dreamers are very misunderstood.
Just something that helped me...
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Willa
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| Posted: Feb 20 2009 at 3:05pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| My oldest is only 7, but he is much, much more of a people-pleaser so obedience wasn't nearly the struggle with him as it is with DS2. |
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Also, Sara, how about the situation besides the not-listening? I think that can give you a clue sometimes.
If your 6 yo generally has a "positive attitude" as they say in my highschooler's report card, then this not listening sounds more like a phase -- like maybe he has trouble making himself focus long enough to do what you want. There are those kind of giddy, sensory-sensitive kids who just have trouble getting their bodies in line with their intentions.
But if he seems like he is "wounded" sometimes, almost like he is challenging you or closing you out, then sometimes it helps to look at the whole relationship. There is that concept that Ross Campbell talks about "filling love tanks". Sometimes children close down for various reasons -- it could be a lot of things.
My 6 year old is more likely to be "closed down" to listening to me after he's spent a lot of time with his slightly bossy 13 year old brother. They quarrel and jostle a bit and it puts the 6 year old in a tough mood. In fact, sometimes he looks me right in the eye and ignores me, but he doesn't do it all the time-- just at certain times. That's just an example. I make him listen and obey but then I try hard to make sure his emotional batteries are recharged (cuddles and wrestling work with him).
So sometimes it's helpful to look at the bigger picture.
Do you think he feels he has to define himself in opposition to his compliant older brother? I know my brother did this (I was the oldest and a girl, so more compliant than he was) and my second-born was a lot more resistant than my very thoughtful quiet firstborn. The second-born thinks the oldest has already claimed the "good" territory .
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Willa
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teachingmyown
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What a great thread! I am finally getting a chance to read through it. My seven year old is my non-listener. Sometimes I think she really is just so wrapped up in her own thoughts, and so easily distracted, that she doesn't remember what she is supposed to be doing. Other times, she is just defiant.
I love all the tips. My question is what to do during a group clean-up time. Every evening we do dinner chores after dinner. I do the dishes, the 12 yr old cleans up the kitchen counters and floor, the 9 yr old scrubs the table and the 11 yr old is supposed to vacuum when the floor is picked up. That leaves 7 and 5 yr olds to pick up the floor in the dining room and surrounding areas. The seven year old refuses to clean almost nightly. She doesn't verbally refuse. She just doesn't do it. If she starts, she stops after picking up one thing.
So, I have the other kids crying that she isn't helping. Meanwhile, I am trying to get my chores done, usually passing the baby back and forth with the 12 or 11 year old. I guess I need to do the take her hand and help her pick up thing, but what a pain!  The other night I did send all of the kids to watch a video and she was left to do the whole thing herself. I ended up helping and I think she actually enjoyed it rather than feeling punished.
There is so little to "take" from my kids as discipline. I am guilty of not being very consistent as well. 
Thanks for all the great food for thought!
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SaraP
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| Posted: Feb 23 2009 at 11:42am | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
| If your 6 yo generally has a "positive attitude" as they say in my highschooler's report card, then this not listening sounds more like a phase -- like maybe he has trouble making himself focus long enough to do what you want. |
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He is mostly a happy, positive kid and the not listening isn't defiance - that is, he's not ignoring my directions because he is mad at me or to make me mad - I think he just deosn't see why he should bother.
He's not a sensitive kid at all (unlike my oldest) so I don't think my being annoyed or frustrated when he doesn't cooperate really even registers with him - and praise for a job well done doesn't seem to make much of an impact either - which is why I feel like I need to have specific, concrete consequences for non-compliance because those do register. I've been using the blackout idea that Stephanie suggested the last several days and that seems like it will be workable.
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Topic: How to you handle ignoring direction?
