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Vanna
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| Posted: July 22 2008 at 1:40pm | IP Logged
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My oldest has played the viola for 4 years now in his school orchestra. He will be able to attend school for one hour a day for this class...if we so choose. Here is the problem, he is naturally musical so it just comes easily to him. He likes playing with the orchestra, he likes the teacher...but I cannot get him to practice. I have tried EVERYTHING. At this point, I am just plain sick of discussing it.
I told him at the beginning of the summer that if he didn't practice this summer that he would not be playing in his school orchestra. He still didn't practice. I reminded him, wrote in on his daily chore list, took away Gameboy, told him he would be rewarded if he practiced, etc etc etc. Nothing.
The viola rental costs us $25 a month and his private lessons are $75 a month. We are not wealthy people, so $100 a month is quite a bit for us. I wouldn't mind paying it (we've done it for 4 years) if he would show ANY interest in doing his part by practicing. He says he likes it but just doesn't want to practice.
Grrr. This is a major source of irritation and conflict between me and ds. I just don't know what to do. My husband is neutral on it but he's not the one who has to fight with him during the day about practicing. DS12 also plays guitar and he does practice that, but I think that's because he gets to play with dad.
Sorry this is so long...I just don't know what to do. Do I just plain ole FORCE him to do it, or do I say enough..he's had 4 years to show some commitment and hasn't so he's done??
Sigh. Thanks for any input.
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folklaur
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Does his teacher get on his case to practice?
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Vanna
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| Posted: July 22 2008 at 1:50pm | IP Logged
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No. She tells him to practice because I ask her to tell him but it doesn't work. He's naturally musical so it just comes so easy to him. He's not significantly worse or better than any of the other kids (if he would put any effort into it, he would be fantastic)...but at some point the music will have progressed to the point that he will have to work at it.
I explained to him today that there is a difference between being able to technically play a song (which he can always do) and truly playing the music with passion and love for it. There is a difference.
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MacBeth
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Practicing is a very personal thing. It is something that must be inspired. If he plays guitar with dad, why not viola? Can he improvise? Guitar and viola will sound wonderful together--very different from two guitars.
Even without much practice, a viola student with musical ability will have no problem in a school orchestra, as I'm sure you have realized. Schools need violas very badly, as it is the least-studied string instrument. Perhaps the teacher could put a bit bit of pressure in another way: While the typical orchestral line for school-level violas is easy (way easy), a solo will be more challenging. Perhaps the teacher could see if the orchestral music she chooses has a line for "advanced viola."
Do you play viola music in the house? There are fewer recording of viola music (and there is not as much viola music written) than for violin, but there are some great recording out there, including the Bach Cello Suites.
Would he be interested in 5 string electric violin? It is a versatile instrument which doubles as a violin and a viola. John Adams' Dharma at Big Sur (you tube link) is written for 5 string...it's a bit avant guard, but it might appeal to him  .
Also, if you ask some local violinists, many will tell you that they make money on viola, because there are so few players. I don't believe in paying kids to practice, but a paying job is often a good incentive. Last year, Libby made twice as much money playing concerts on viola as she did with violin (Juilliard pre-college cross-trains all violinists).
FWIW, my 12 yo ds hates to practice unless he has a very specific goal (concert or audition). I suspect that viola will not be a career choice for him  , but I do encourage him to practice, and I set up a regular practice time for him. Practice may include listening (some days it is all listening), and sight reading. He also has many practice books that are a bit dull, but the results are good.
I have occasionally asked his private teacher when we should give up...she emphatically says, "Never!"
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Vanna
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| Posted: July 22 2008 at 2:10pm | IP Logged
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How often should I "make" him practice? How long each time?
It's really frustrating to me because he is blessed with this gift (one that I absolutely do not have LOL). I want him to make the most of it.
He wants to try out for our city's Youth Orchestra in August but I said that would require practice and commitment. I don't know if I should let him or not if he can't even practice his songs for school orchestral.
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folklaur
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You aren't going to like my answer, I think... 
My daughter plays some instruments. And, when she was supposed to practice and didn't...I didn't say anything. If she wants to do it, she'll practice. If she wants to be fantastic, she'll put more effort into it. If she is just doing it for fun and is able to get away with the bare minimum, well.....that is her choice. She knows she doesn't want a career in violin or drums, but she sure does enjoy playing in the concerts she has been in. So she does enough to be good at those. Do I wish she was better about practicing? Yep. Do I wish she could realize how much BETTER she could be? Yep - because she is REALLY GOOD w/o practicing much at all, so if she practiced I know she would be FANTASTIC.
But...for us, it just wasn't one of those issues that it was worth arguing over. I just let it go. She is doing it for enjoyment, and because it comes pretty easy to her, and she likes it. As I said, this isn't going to be her career choice. If it was - I am sure she would have more of her own personal motivation to do it.
But that is me. I have enough things I won't compromise on. This is one of them where I will, because she will have the natural consequences of "not practicing."
hope that makes sense....
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Vanna
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| Posted: July 22 2008 at 2:26pm | IP Logged
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LOL Laura...you sound just like my husband.
I totally understand where you are coming from (and my dh)...I'm going to have to think on this. 
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MacBeth
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I would set up short playing times, daily. I'd not call it practice. I'd show great enthusiasm, and resist the temptation to push him to do more than the alloted time. I'd have him practice when he is fresh, or let him stay up late to practice (works here... ).
If he has the goal of auditioning for the youth orchestra, he will have to become more disciplined. Perhaps when he is surrounded by enthusiastic musicians in the orchestra he will be inspired.
I know your frustration, though. I have one who plays well, rarely practices, but would be unbelievable if he practiced consistently. He has perfect pitch, can improvise anything, but could not care less about music  . But he does not want to quit, ever. Go figure.
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JodieLyn
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If you're willing to do all the remembering and forcing practise.. and he's a bit lazy (and who can't be at times ) he will most likely let you do all the "work" of getting him to practise until you give it over to him and let him deal with any natural consequences.
I also would suggest providing him with challenges of some sort.. sometimes you need the challendge to make it interesting.. and it's much easier to want to do something interesting than something boring.
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folklaur
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Vanna wrote:
How often should I "make" him practice? How long each time?
It's really frustrating to me because he is blessed with this gift (one that I absolutely do not have LOL). I want him to make the most of it.
He wants to try out for our city's Youth Orchestra in August but I said that would require practice and commitment. I don't know if I should let him or not if he can't even practice his songs for school orchestral.
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To follow up my previous post, I have some more thoughts after reading this.
I am not musically inclined AT ALL. I really think my daughter is SO blessed to be. But I have to remember my desires for her success with music may not be hers.
If he auditioned, and made it, I wouldn't let him "back out" if his lack of practice made him not want to continue. He would have to fulfill his commitment - but I still would have it be his responsibility. Be sure to give him time in each day that is set aside as "practice time" - but then I would leave it up to him. It is likely the teachers there will know if he hasn't practised, and may call him out on it. That may actually help a little.
Don't know if I am making sense....
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MacBeth
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cactus mouse wrote:
I have enough things I won't compromise on. This is one of them where I will, because she will have the natural consequences of "not practicing."
hope that makes sense.... |
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Perfect sense, Laura...natural consequences are always best.
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marianne
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If he really likes it, but isn't challenged by the teacher he's with and the group he plays in, then I would look for more challenging opportunities. Usually the local youth orchestras are more focused and advanced than the regular school groups - so maybe getting him around more serious players would inspire him to step up to the plate. A serious music teacher with a studio of semi serious pre-college students would have regular group classes and such that would also motivate any interested young musician. It sounds to me like he doesn't have a reason to practice, so I'd give him one and see what that does.
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Barbara C.
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I would let him audition for the local youth orchestra. I think it would be a real learning experience for him, either by not getting in or by the higher level of expectation placed upon him.
If money is a concern, can you make him shoulder some of the cost. I know he's only twelve, but maybe he can be a mother's helper or offer minor cleaning assistance. Or even set up his guitar or viola at a farmer's market or fair and play for change. Supposedly David Albert's (homeschool writer and speaker) kids earned money for new instruments and musical supplies by doing this from a young age.
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SallyT
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I agree with both the idea of finding a more serious challenge, and also with letting the viola be his thing, not yours. It can be hard, weirdly enough, not to be ego-invested in a gift which a child has but you don't, and I know that I find I have to make myself back off certain things.
My daughter plays the violin. When she was smaller, and I was dumber, I had signed her up for all kinds of lessons which she'd asked for, like ballet, and then had them turn out to be disasters (why I expected an introverted 4-year-old to want to dance around the room with a bunch of strange little girls in pink tutus I cannot now imagine, but she'd SAID she wanted to do it . . . ), so I made her ask for the violin lessons for about two years before I gave in and let her do them, and I told her from the outset -- she was about 8 at the time -- that I would pay for the violin rental and the teacher, but that I would not tell her to practice. This was her thing, and she could do it or not.
This was partly sheer laziness on my part, but partly I figured that I didn't need to create reasons to fight with her. And why should I care, after all, whether she could play the violin or not? I mean, I have to fight this impulse to turn my children into the Von Trapps, because then I'd get to be Maria, but that's my problem, not hers. If she cared enough to practice the violin, I reasoned with myself, she would do it.
She's now 14, still playing (and I still don't tell her to practice). She likes to just kind of jam with herself in her room -- recently she's been working her way through a hymnal, teaching herself the melodies of hymns she likes. I also let her pick books out of the Shar Music catalog to try. Her best friend plays the bassoon, so we had some very interesting collaborations at one stage . . . If she hasn't practiced enough, she generally feels it at the next lesson, and she loves her teacher (and now we've got to find another one because we're moving, sniff) and hates feeling that she's let her down. So that's what motivates her. I haven't told her to practice more than about twice in the past 6 years, which may or may not have something to do with why she enjoys playing at home, in her room, doing what would normally be labelled "practicing." To her it's just play.
Anyway, I think my strategy would be to back off. If he goes through an initial period of not practicing, it will come back to bite him at lessons and in rehearsals, which might be enough to get him going again. If he just doesn't and doesn't and doesn't, then you might have to ask whether he cares as much about playing the viola as you care about his playing it. If the answer is "no," then it may be time to let go and put your $100 a month to some other use. That may not be a very happy answer, but it's worth considering that a gift in one person's eyes can come to seem more like a curse to the one who possesses it . . .
Just some thoughts, anyway, from a mother who so wishes she played an instrument herself (or was Maria von Trapp)!
Sally
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Erin
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Vanna
As others have said before me it is a decision only you can make, does that help?
As suggested the Youth Orchestra may be just what he needs, something to extend and stretch him as he is not getting that now. I do believe for dc whom things come naturally they need to be challenged or they lose interest.
I'm going to be a dissenting voice and say maybe you should give it up if he doesn't appreciate it. Put it to him that he is 'taking a break'. So the door is always open for him to come back to.
I have children who have picked up instruments really quickly, dd for example learnt clarinet notes in three lessons that take most people over six months to learn, it was soo frustrating to her teacher that she wouldn't practice, it was too easy, dh said if she continued to not practice then we wouldn't waste the teacher's time nor our money and effort. It was so sad but as Sally says it was 'my dream' not my daughter's. I still pray that she will choose to go back to it one day.
Next all my dc started piano lessons for a very cheap price. But after a few terms they slacked off and were wasting the teacher's time. So much to his disappointment we are currently 'taking a break'. But he was frustrated with them too.
I get mad though because I so wished I had these opportunities, then again my thoughts are sometimes maybe I should have lessons, I'll be happy and into the bargain I may inspire my dc. If only I could find the time.
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caallas
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I actually see this more as a discipline issue than a musical issue. You have asked him to do practice his viola and he hasn't. That was his choice. Why force him to do it. You already gave him an ultimatim and so there are natural consequences. You said if he didn't follow through:
<< ...if he didn't practice this summer that he would not be playing in his school orchestra. He still didn't practice. I reminded him, wrote in on his daily chore list, took away Gameboy, told him he would be rewarded if he practiced, etc etc etc. Nothing. >>
He has not done what was requested and you are worrying about what to do next. Why? Do what you said you would do...Don't let him play in the orchestra. He will see that you me what you say and maybe decide he actually wants it bad enough that he will do what needs to be done to get back in (maybe at midyear or the following year).
I truly don't want this to sound harsh. When I have kept in place natual consequences my kids knew what to expect and it relieved so much stress from my life. I didn't have to nag anymore, etc.
Good luck with your decisions.
Cindy A.
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P.S. I don't know how to put the part I replied to in a yellow box. Can anyone explain that to me? I also don't know how to make a signature.
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Bookswithtea
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Fwiw, I have a son who is passionate about and very talented on the guitar. We tried lessons after a couple of years of self taught, when he was 12, and it was a disaster. We dropped the lessons and I went back to letting him do his own thing. He now at almost 15 writes music, performs it when he gets the opportunity, constantly hunts down tabs for complicated songs, picks out harmonies for songs he loves...But every time I get my nose into it (like when I suggested using his guitar as a fine arts credit but he would have to provide some proof for our verifier), he shuts down. If you son is truly talented, then I might consider backing off? I certainly wouldn't make the private lesson investment, but I don't know that I would drop the orchestra option for him, if he wants to do it. Maybe he's just a moody pre teen who needs to feel a little more independent about the whole thing? That's what it was with my ds, anyway. I'm not an unschooler by nature, but it seems to have worked with this child and his chosen instrument.
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StephanieA
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We have had most our children (old enough- 5 so far)involved in music at some point or other. NONE of my kids are great musicians...but neither am I or my dh.
That said, the oldest took music to the college level as an "extra", made the orchestra, and after one month dropped out...way too much time for him to spend, he said.
The second has/had some talent but practicing became an issue 2 years ago. His lessons are $$$, because he takes at the college from a prof, so I said you must practice AT LEAST 50 min./6 days a week. His lessons are an hour long and I told him basically that I was paying him to practice by paying for his lessons. So if he fell short of practice time, he paid for the difference. (He was 16-18 at the time and had lawning mowing jobs, etc.). He didn't like it, but at least a week or so a month, he paid for a partial lesson or two.
Third child played piano pretty darn well, but wouldn't practice. His prof dropped him because of it.
He was totally disappointed. He had a chance at another teacher for this fall, but the deal was that he must put practice time in this summer. He didn't and we won't pay that kind of money for lessons with this teacher for a 16 year old who won't practice. A lesser skilled teacher wouldn't motivate him.
The 3rd and 4th kids are 13 and 11. I do a chart of practice time with them. The 11 year old is moving to a prof this fall who will require more serious practice. She may not be able to do it, but her current teacher said it is time to move on. We'll see. I seriously do not see the maturity in this child yet to practice much more than 1/2 hour/45 min. a day. But I can't MAKE her want it. She has to decide. But she is too young for "paying for practices". All I can really do is make sure she is encouraged and remind her to do what she needs to do.
Anyway, my point is that we have dealt with this problem differently with each kid. Natural consequences are definetly better. But with the younger ones, they just don't have the maturity to understand that they may be giving up too much by not practicing, and honestly, the younger ones are more pliable than the teens
Blessings,
Stephanie
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cornomama4
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Everyone has offered really good advice. You know your child and only you know if this is a specific (viola practice) or larger (discipline) issue, but I'd definitely back off from using your energy to get him to practice. If he makes the Youth Orchestra he will be inspired to be better, if it is in him to want to be better. He's also a pre-teen that plays the viola...maybe he's starting to be concerned about his image? Guitar seems way cooler, but a good violist is a rare commodity.
I don't know where you are in KS, but maybe you could take him to see a live performance. If you're near KC, they're really good, and Wichita has a good band last I heard. KU Orchestra is probably also good or any other large college or university around you should have something.
Maybe the teacher needs to push him beyond his comfort level, or maybe he's ready for a different teacher....I never keep a student more than 3 or 4 years. The relationship becomes too predictable and the student gets too comfortable and tries to get away with not practicing. Usually they're ready to move to the next level (professional track which I am not intersted in helping anyone with right now-too much responsibility) or they graduate HS and leave or they just quit taking fromme because I give them a hard time if they come in unprepared too many times.
My parents rarely pushed me to practice as a youth, and I never practiced in Undergrad and even in my Master's program. I finally really worked during my doctoral studies becasue I was really ready to go beyond my natural talent and I knew the only way to do that was to practice beyond myself. One summer I practiced 4 hours a day for almost 6 weeks straight, which is a lot for a brass player! I wondered aloud to my teacher at the time why no one else had inspired me to work like that before, and he said "you probably weren't ready for it". I know if my parents had pushed me, I would have quit just to be contrary.
Good luck, and I hope it works out.
cm4
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Topic: When do I say enough is enough...
