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hobbitmom
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 5:51am | IP Logged
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Is there such a thing? At our house, one dh who refuses to cosleep + one mommy who refuses to CIO + one baby who refuses to sleep = serious sleep deprivation and strained family relationships all around.
Ds is 9 mos and sleeping (ha!) in a crib in another room. (He slept next to our bed in a bassinet until 6 mos.) For the last couple months I have been getting up -- every couple hours on good nights and a couple times an hour on bad nights -- to go in and nurse him. I have reached the danger point with not getting sleep: I came much too close to shaking the baby with frustration this morning, and something really does need to be done.
Dh insists that we let him cry himself to sleep a few times and that will solve everything. He says he will stay in the room with ds and pat him and talk to him and try to keep him calm without picking him up, but I'm predicting that ds will end up screaming himself senseless anyway -- and can't stand the thought.
Any suggestions?
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Amy
Mom to Mr. Mischief (5/05) and Mr. Happy (9/07)
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mathmama
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 6:39am | IP Logged
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Well, my 1yo is the same way. She does not stay asleep for more than 2 hours at a time. I could not survive without cosleeping. I don't believe in CIO, but I know that even if I tried it with my lo she would just cry until morning and not sleep at all. I hope you get some suggestions that work for you.
Beth
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PDyer
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 7:11am | IP Logged
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Some of my friends have found Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution helpful. There are excerpts of the book at the linked page.
Hope this helps.
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Patty
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SusanMc
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 7:31am | IP Logged
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Well, we did CIO but it went fairly smoothly. One thing that helped is something that you might find useful. Instead of not nursing at all, I would do countdown nursing. First night I'd nurse for 7 minutes each time. Next night 6 minutes...and so on. It was a great way for me to be convinced that he didn't NEED to nurse (I mean how much food can a kid get in one minute!) and slowly got my son used to the idea that he didn't have to nurse either.
Once the countdown was done, we were down to about one wakeup per night which we did CIO for...husband did the sitting. But it sounds like just getting down to one wakeup a night would be a godsend for you.
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 8:21am | IP Logged
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It depends on your child's temperament, too. I tried CIO with my oldest and she would just get more and more ticked off and hysterical. When I would finally give up, it would take an hour to calm her down. After a few nights of that I gave up. Now we have a twin mattress between our queen and the wall for newborns to sleep on, but we usually do have a bigger kid co-sleeping between us.
If your husband won't allow the baby to sleep in the bed, will he allow you to move the crib back in your room so neither you nor the baby get as awake. Or can you sleep in the other room with the baby for a bit? (A very common scenario, too.)
I wish you luck.
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missionfamily
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 9:03am | IP Logged
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I was going to suggest a twin bed or mattress in the baby's room rather than a rocking chair. At least you can lay down and doze while baby nurses. If it's important to dh that you are in your bed, you could set a kitchen timer to buzz in half an hour to make sure you get up and go back to bed. WE have had all sorts of sleepers in our family, from my last two babies who wanted to be in their own cribs and slept all night almost right away to my frist baby who did not sleep unless he was nursing for the first two years. Mom can cope with either's needs as long as she as able to get a reasonable amount of sleep in the process.
If the twin bed is not feasible, even a recliner that you doze off in may help you get some sleep in the process.
Prayers for some rest for you!
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SallyT
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 10:36am | IP Logged
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We have had all kinds in our house, too, and we did end up having to sleep-train/CIO with our thirdborn: we were living in the UK, went back to the US for his baptism, and came home to the UK with a baby on a turned-around/jetlagged sleep schedule which didn't self-correct after 2-3 months -- and he wouldn't nurse to sleep in bed with us, despite all my trying. He would just happily be up -- and nursing -- all night, and then a wreck during the day. So it was out of real desperation, having tried literally everything else I knew, that we decided to let him cry. Having started as full-on attachment-parenting types, we did not arrive at this decision lightly.
He was sleeping in our room anyway, so the crying business was miserable for all. On the other hand, he wasn't alone, and we did get up and pat him, tell him to go back to sleep, speak to him from our bed, etc. Maybe I'm just delusional, but I do think there's a world of difference between being with a child who is crying and leaving a child to cry alone. I have had enough very determined cryers in my house to realize that I can't always stop the crying, no matter what I try or how much I love on them, and that sometimes interfering with the crying only prolongs it. (this is more true with older children and tantrums, but can be true of a baby who won't sleep as well).
One thing I did was to ensure that he was nursing frequently enough during the day that I could be reasonably sure that he wasn't awakening from hunger. I got him up at 7 in the morning consistently and fed him every 2-3 hours during the day -- I don't like scheduling as a rule, but his "natural," on-demand schedule meant nursing from midnight to morning, continually, and he wasn't going to change that without some pushing from me. He was old enough to be eating some solids by then, too, and that helped. It was easier to respond to him in ways other than nursing when I could be reasonably sure that he was waking, or refusing to sleep, more from habit than physical need.
We tried not to get him out of bed once we'd put him down. If he was really hysterical, one of us would get him up without speaking to him, in the dark, and sit holding him quietly -- not rocking, not speaking, just holding him so that the body contact could calm him some, and then put him back down. We were trying also to break the cycle of expectation that you could have a party with Mom and Dad at 2 am if you wanted, so we tried to keep our interactions with him in the night very matter of fact. If he needed changing, obviously we'd do that, but without talking, playing, and all the other things we'd normally do during a daytime diaper change. If he had needs, we certainly responded, but we were trying to teach him that night is for sleep.
It took a while, and we certainly had some disturbed, and disturbing nights, though not that many of them before he began to learn to settle himself and get himself back to sleep. He was, before and after that experience, a very happy baby overall, and he is today a sunny, outgoing, high-energy, happy boy of almost 6, so if we inflicted psychological damage on him by sleep-training him, it really doesn't show. And ever since that time, he has been a very good, sound, peaceful sleeper with no lingering fears or anxieties about sleep, bed, the dark, etc.
My husband has always been a great help with our babies -- willing to get up at night with them, and able to be far more lovingly matter-of-fact with them. When we were trying to wean off night nursings and constant wakings, it was wonderful to have someone there who could respond without the distraction/temptation of the built-in milk fountain. If you've got a husband willing to do that, take advantage of it. Fathers can offer love and comfort, too, in the night, though it may take a while to adjust to that substitute (and "adjustment" can mean a lot of crying, because babies can't just say, "I would really prefer Mommy, thanks."). It kind of goes against the grain of motherhood to let someone else comfort our babies, but it's a wonderful thing for a father to be able to take an active part in. And if it gets you some rest, so that you can be a calmer, less-frustrated mother, then I think that's not a bad trade-off. Continual sleep deprivation doesn't serve anybody well.
My thoughts, anyway . . .
Sally
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hobbitmom
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 1:30pm | IP Logged
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SallyT wrote:
| Having started as full-on attachment-parenting types, we did not arrive at this decision lightly. |
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This is encouraging. I so badly wish we could cosleep! Dh is the mildest and most accommodating of husbands, but on a (very) few things he puts his foot down. This is one: children belong in their beds, and his wife belongs in his. We tried Pantley's book for a few months with our older son and had exactly zero success. Dh doesn't want to mess around with it this time but nip the poor sleeping in the bud.
SallyT wrote:
| I do think there's a world of difference between being with a child who is crying and leaving a child to cry alone. |
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That's what dh says too. He proposes to sleep on the floor in the baby's room and be with him all night, several nights if needed; to never leave him alone and do whatever he can to help calm him down -- short of picking him up, which often makes ds more angry anyway, at least when it's Daddy and not Mommy.
SallyT wrote:
| One thing I did was to ensure that he was nursing frequently enough during the day that I could be reasonably sure that he wasn't awakening from hunger. I got him up at 7 in the morning consistently and fed him every 2-3 hours during the day... It was easier to respond to him in ways other than nursing when I could be reasonably sure that he was waking, or refusing to sleep, more from habit than physical need. |
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Yes. Makes sense. Poor ds is teething, too, but dh again has been very understanding and applies teething rings, Tylenol and topical anesthetic even more often than I do, so I guess I shouldn't be too worried about that issue... especially when he's been such a rotten sleeper even long before the teeth started coming in.
SallyT wrote:
| My husband has always been a great help with our babies -- willing to get up at night with them, and able to be far more lovingly matter-of-fact with them... If you've got a husband willing to do that, take advantage of it... it's a wonderful thing for a father to be able to take an active part in. And if it gets you some rest, so that you can be a calmer, less-frustrated mother, then I think that's not a bad trade-off. Continual sleep deprivation doesn't serve anybody well. |
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That's my dh too. Sigh. Poor little ds! I wonder where I can sleep the next few nights so I won't have to lie there and listen to him crying. Maybe the basement... or the backyard?
Thank you for all the thoughts, everybody, and the prayers too. This will be a difficult time just ahead.
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Amy
Mom to Mr. Mischief (5/05) and Mr. Happy (9/07)
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K&Rs Mom
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 7:04pm | IP Logged
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What worked for us was to set limits on feeding (once they were old enough to make it through the night). Somewhere between 6-9 months we'd decide no feeding after midnight, so I'd go in for wakings before midnight but dh would go in after midnight until about 6 am (my dc are early birds). This way baby didn't smell the milk, so dh had an easier time getting them back to sleep than I would have. After that was going smoothly, we'd stop the nursing between bedtime & midnight, so (after about a month total) they finally were sleeping from 8pm to 6am. HTH!
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Aubrey
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Fuzzy
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| Posted: June 13 2008 at 8:18pm | IP Logged
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Can I ask what your definition of crying it out means? Is it point blank just cry until exhausted, or do the checking at intervals and spacing them accordingly?
When I did the CIO with my DS, it was to let him cry, and go check on him at 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes (or let my DH check, rub his back, etc.) and continue that way. I have also heard about the method of sitting in the room, and slowly making yoru way to the door, as the baby calms more. No interaction, talking, but letting them know that you are there. Sorry if this is muddled. I know what you are going through!
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 Fuzzy
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Red Cardigan
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Amy, I never thought I would do the CIO either; we had babies in our room (and often in our bed) when both DD1 and DD2 were little.
After DD3 was born, when she was 2 months old, I had to be hospitalized for a week for an impacted kidney stone.  . DH and his mom were taking care of the three children, ages 2.5, 1.5, and two months. Even when I got home I couldn't nurse for a while due to meds.
But during the week I was gone, DH "trained" DD#3 to go to bed!!
I couldn't believe it. After her last bottle he carried her into our room, gently laid her in bed, and covered her with a light "blankie," all while saying, "Night-night, honey. Night-night, sweetheart." He turned on a night light and the baby monitor and backed out of the room, closing the door most of the way.
"But she's still awake!" I objected.
"Listen," he said. And I did.
She gave a few halfhearted "test cries" that were more fussing than anything and then quieted down. A few minutes later she was sound asleep--and slept for six hours straight!
He told me that the first couple of nights he would go in, pick her up, and pat her back for a minute, repeated the phrases about "bedtime" and "night-night" but that after a couple of nights she really didn't cry so much as fuss a bit and then settle down (which, frankly, my 2.5 and 1.5 would still do at the words "time for bed,"). She was my absolute best baby-sleeper and I never had to go through the later crying/fussing/screaming in the middle of the night stages that the others went through (even the one who shared our bed more than the others ever did).
So, it can work! And I've got to admit, she seemed so much happier than the one who co-slept with us the longest, who used to fuss and kick and who wasn't ever really at rest until DH got up in the morning and she could "sprawl" in the empty half of the bed.
Best of luck as you work this out!
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mama251ders
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| Posted: June 14 2008 at 5:13pm | IP Logged
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We used the Lull-A-Baby sleep plan book and I highly recommend it. It does not advocate CIO but it moves along faster than The No Cry Sleep Solution. It took us one week to go from a baby who would not go to sleep or stay asleep to a baby who fell asleep on her own and slept through the night! I wasn't trying for the sleeping through the night, just that she would sleep on her own without so much work from me. Good Luck!
Blessins,
Betsie
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JennGM
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| Posted: June 14 2008 at 5:35pm | IP Logged
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PDyer wrote:
Some of my friends have found Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution helpful. There are excerpts of the book at the linked page.
Hope this helps. |
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We used a modified version of this. Worked well for us.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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SallyT
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| Posted: June 14 2008 at 9:32pm | IP Logged
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We did do the patting the baby at longer and longer intervals. Essentially at the beginning he DID cry himself to sleep, and it was excruciating for all involved. But we didn't just leave him cold turkey -- of course, from his point of view, not giving him EXACTLY what he wanted when he wanted it was just as bad. It didn't take him long, though, to be able to be put down, to fuss around mildly for a few minutes, and then to go to sleep. And he is a good sleeper to this day.
With #4 we began something like this almost from birth. She came home from the hospital on a schedule anyway, owing to having been in the ICU for Group B Strep. So it wasn't hard to keep her feedings mostly concentrated in the daytime, with one or at the most two wakings in the night. I had learned from #3 that babies really don't die from crying, and for the first time I felt more confident about putting her down and letting her kind of rootle around and fuss to herself for a few minutes before deciding that I had to rush in and save her. She slept in our room, and we did have her in our bed some, but on the whole as a baby she was our easiest sleeper.
Of course, all of this is complicated if one is doing ecological breastfeeding -- at the time we were not Catholic and I was not relying on breastfeeding to space pregnancies (though I now kind of wish I had been, because we might have had a #5 . . . consequences, consequences . . . but God knows best). But given that we were not doing ecological breastfeeding, it was a great help to have a baby who would go to sleep. And like Red, I have to say that as a baby she was our happiest, easiest child. At four she's a bit of a drama queen . . . but that's a whole nother story. She was a well-rested baby, which I'm sure contributed to her being happy and contented most of the time.
With #3, it definitely helped to have my husband, who did not smell of milk, doing whatever picking-up went on. When you're ready to wean off a particular feeding, or set of feedings, dads are just no end of valuable. As they are in general anyway, of course.
Sally
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Gentle sleep training?
