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dawn2006
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...obedience. My boys (especially the almost 6yo) have really begun backtalking a lot. It's very draining on me. The only thing I have in place right now is "try again" which means to rephrase in a polite voice. Or "with manners please" if it's just a brusque demand. So, I guess it's really the backtalking that's getting to me, not the tone of voice necessarily. And the dawdling. I was reading the Andreola book again last night and saw her guidelines for training in a new habit. I want to start that but in my mind run up against a few logistical problems. So, if you don't mind helping...
1. Should I focus on both boys at the same time? I'm leaning towards focusing thoroughly on the oldest and 'normally' on the almost 4yo.
2. What's a logical consequence for backtalking? I'm considering having him leave the room and losing the "privilege" of my company. Which brings me to...
3. Do I include rude talk to others right now? Or is that too much? Should I just deal with that the way I've normally been while at the same time zeroing in on the backtalk?
4. If my logical consequence of leaving the room turns into a physical confrontation? My eldest is the 'hard' one: flailing limbs and screaming and such. Punishing for upset behavior ON TOP of the original behavior has never been conducive so I'm thinking of just being calm while removing him, even if it involves being phsyical. And being prepared to stay by his room to prevent breaking things and such. Which all means I'll have to be consistent with the consequence (of removal) at the first sign of backtalk and BEFORE my anger gets high b/c of verbal repetitions.
5. I'm not exactly sure how to show him what backtalking is. I usually realize he's doing it AFTER I've become irritated with it. Maybe I could spend the day telling him "that's backtalk and tomorrow you will be removed from the room for that."
Thanks so much if you've read all of this. Also, I'm not a spanker or a time-outer. I do withdraw the privilege of video games for when the boys aren't quiet during "quiet time" but that's the only privilege they really have so I don't want to use that punishment for anything else. Plus, I like natural/logical consequences.
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Dawn Farias | wife to Ariel | mom to Gabriel 9, Daniel 7, Elizabeth 5, and Michael 3 | blogger at Be Absorbed | native Texan but currently living near Seattle
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lapazfarm
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I think what you are suggesting makes sense.
To me, the natural/logical consequence of backtalk or rudeness is that he doesn't get the thing he asks for. I would be firm about that,especially. And if "try again" or "with manners please" isn't working, then perhaps you could institute a zero tolerance policy.In other words, he needs to ask nicely the first time, or he does not get what he wants. No second chances.
I do think you are right about addressing it before the anger flares. I know I do not parent effectively when I am angry and if I let it get to that point then I have lost. Being very matter-of-fact and proactive is really the best method for me.
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lapazfarm
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Oh, one other thing.
To show him what backtalk is: practice ahead of time. Do some role-playing and you be him asking for something rudely. Then show him how you should have asked. Then let him practice,too. Remind him of these practice sessions when you know he is going to ask for something and head him off at the pass, so to speak. "Before you ask me for your snack, do you remember how we practiced asking nicely?"
Catch him being polite and praise him for it. "I really like the way you asked me for that. That was SO polite!"
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ALmom
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Is it backtalking occuring when you have asked them to do something? It is easy to fall into the trap of argueing with the child - BUT, you are the adult. If you have asked them to do something, you expect it to be done - willingly and without complaint. Now, of course, this must be modeled in how we respond to those in authority over us so along with focusing on your son, also be attentive yourself to how you speak to and about those in authority over you.
Also it is helpful while you are trying to establish the habit to set it up for success. IE, if you are calling from the other room for everyone to put on shoes, unless the habit is already in place, don't ask like that. It is not likely to happen and then they are continually practicing disobedience. Go into the room with the child, get eye contact, and then make your request. I often have my young children repeat what I said - and then I will offer to help in the early stages of training. Ie - you put a block in and I will (for the younger child) but would definitely remain in the room doing something while the habit is being formed. It helps keep them from gettting sidetracked. It is best if you can give warning, etc. Ie set up times where you make it really easy for them to obey. Then they can build the habit.
A magazine written by a priest for religious superiors made so much sense in terms of parenting. Be careful about what you ask and make your commands few and easily obeyed.
While you are forming the habit, be very careful what you ask. We all know what is especially difficult for our own children. Mine hate to be rushed, don't like being disturbed in what they are doing, like some warning to be able to change gears and it often helps if they know that there will be some special time after the requested task is done. Also, how you phrase things makes a differenec. A child often only hears the first thing you say - so make it short and to the point so they can follow what you want. Ie Name, please put on your shoes, then we'll .... If you phrase it We'll go to the park once you get your shoes on, they'll forget about the shoes and gather all that they want for the park.
Janet
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JodieLyn
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We've dealt with something in my oldest mainly.. it wasn't exactly backtalk but it was a nasty attitude (horribly put upon if asked to do something or rather demanding etc)
I found that having her go to her room only increased the problem.. because she'd talk herself into feeling like she was unfairly treated.
What I did was have her put her nose on the wall near wherever I was. She was there to work on changing the attitude.. and I would point it out.. *that attitude right there is unacceptable*.. or when she actually did it right.. pointing that out.
And I'd keep right on nailing her.. when she'd start the oh poor me I'm treated so badly.. and I'd tell her to STOP.. that SHE was in charge of her attitude and she could change it and basically that it's not fair that she treats others the way she does with that attitude. Oh and there was no time limit.. it was literally you're there until you change. She's learned to change pretty rapidly  and it's gotten a lot better. Now we're throwing hormones in the mix and here we go again..  But this time it's working more to give her a few minutes and then go and talk with her.. and help her work her way out of the tangle logically. Mixing in humor makes a big difference.
I think we've dealt with it less in the next kids down because we've come down pretty hard on it with her. They're not finding it worthwhile.
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dawn2006
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Thanks for the replies! The backtalking is more like arguing, actually. Disagreeing with me about something that is final and keeping on about it. He can change his tone well, when prompted once, if he's asking for something or whatever. I've been pointing out to him this morning the cases of backtalking and telling him that tomorrow he'll go to his room for that since it's not fair him to be near me and talking to me like that.
As the morning went on I realized that just pointing out "backtalking" wasn't broad enough and I switched over to saying "that's talking disrespectfully to me." If it's an opinion he's trying to express than I help him rephrase but if it's arguing back then I tell him "that is backtalking and will send you to your room tomorrow."
Does parenting always take so much effort?? (just joking.. well, not really. )
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Dawn Farias | wife to Ariel | mom to Gabriel 9, Daniel 7, Elizabeth 5, and Michael 3 | blogger at Be Absorbed | native Texan but currently living near Seattle
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doris
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This is such a helpful thread for me. I read that Andreola chapter over a year ago and we've been working on just the ONE habit -- obedience -- ever since!
I would agree with the advice to nip backchat in the bud. We also use 'time out' ie go to your room for a few minutes. Sometimes my dd genuinely doesn't understand what the problem is -- so, talking about it later once everyone has cooled down can help.
Interesting that others have mentioned this from their eldest children. My 7yo is certainly the one who pushes the boundaries on this. My 5yo boy, by comparison, is gentle as a lamb!
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Angie Mc
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Hi Dawn, I think that the habit of "not back-talking" is part of the "habit of respectful discussion" that we foster in our family. Our home education and family life is very much anchored on discussion. Now that my children are older, I'm very happy that we can discuss things that are important to us. In the early years, the challenge is how to help a parent and child to identify when a "discussion" has ended and "obedience" has begun  . I like to say things like, "This is not a discussion. I am telling you to..." Sometimes I explain, "I am not up for a discussion right now. You can bring it up to me again..." With older children, I'm known to ask them to bring discussions to our family meeting which is held on Sundays and let them make a note of what they wanted to talk about. I naturally have zero tolerance for any disrespectful talk to include badgering and whining. I tell my children, "I can't hear disrespectful talk," or "If you badger or whine the answer is automatically 'no'". Or if they exaggerate, ex: "We never have treats!", I reply, "Would you like me to make that true?" The key is to stay non-emotional. "As soon as you settle down, I'll be glad to listen to you and I expect you to listen to me in return."
I asked my oldest three children why they don't back-talk. They all laughed and said, "Because it doesn't work!" Yep...that's pretty much it. Each of these children have different temperaments, yet each learned to control themselves and speak respectfully to me and their dad.
Your plan looks fine. To answer your specific questions:
1. Yes, deal with the 6yo specifically while looking to improve all discussion in your family. If you or you dh is a natural arguer, you may need to work on that. If you or your dh is passive and your child is an arguer, you'll need to work on that too.
2. The main thing is that the child doesn't get what they want through disrespectful behavior. I really try to take the gentlest path so if a child calms down best in a separate room from me, fine...if not, the child can stay with me to calm down. I do my best to "get to my work" and to encourage them that they are fine.
3. My children are never to talk rudely to those outside of the family and to make amends immediately, even if I have to do it for them.
4. See above:).
5. You received great ideas from the ladies here.
Hang in there. This is a tough one!
Love,
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SallyT
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This is a helpful discussion! We deal with this quite often with our two youngest -- though it was a problem with our oldest, too. Then, we were just stupid, and she got away with it for far too long, though she's now a very nice teenager, so obviously grace is real.
Our littles are 5 and 4-on-Wednesday, and they are kind of like another oldest-younger child, as there's a five-year difference between the 5-year-old and the next-oldest child (who, like Elizabeth's son, has always been a lamb). Did that make sense? I mean I have two very distinct sets of two, each with an older and a younger, and all the attendant dynamics.
These younger two are inseparable and tend to feed off each other, for good or ill. They also trade off who's the "bad" child of the moment -- right now it's the almost-4yo, who when asked to stop doing something, please, will look me in the eye and do it, whatever it is, harder. I'm having a VERY hard time keeping my cool, so this discussion is very timely. Thank you all!
Sally
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ALmom
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Dawn: It sounds like it isn't as much about obeying right away as it is about trying to argue with you. Sorry my original post focused on setting the children up for obeying - leaving a park, etc. More like what I did with a 2 year old - not 6 year old. So to make obedience easy, it is helpful to set things up - ie only commanding what you are prepared to follow through on and what is necessary and providing them with whatever heads up is possible to make obedience as easy as it is possible. But, of course, you then have to follow through and that is more what you were asking. Oops sorry.
Based on what you said about once the situation starts, sounds like the biggest thing is for them not to be given the opportunity to argue - a calm mama who refuses to get into a debate. One technique I used was to state my request, if there was any sign of " but... I'd sternly remind them obedience first and then I would make myself very busy at the first task at hand even if it was busy work and would refuse to respond until the task was done. Sending the child away was often a reward as the talking back may be an attempt to delay a distasteful task in the hope that someone else will end up doing it. Being sent to the room means the task is significantly delayed. Getting no reaction from mom and no delay of the task asignment means nothing was gained by the talking. If there was a lot of backtalking continuing, I would ignore the talking while the task was being done but once the task was complete, I'd calmly have a consequence for the bad attitude.
When my oldest was 6, she was a big questioner, but I simply let her know that the time for discussion was after the task was completed. I very firmly told her that she needed to obey first, then we could discuss whatever. Part of the backtalking is inappropriately worded inquisitiveness and part is delaying tactics surrounding a distasteful task. I don't mind the inquisitiveness (properly and respectifully phrased after the task has been completed). The delaying tactic disappears because it is no longer useful - the task is done and no longer needs being delayed and since it doesn't work, this kind of back talk quickly disappears.
For the inquisitiveness, If I need to model the appropriate way to say something, I'd make her rephrase it politely - but again the task had to first be completed. After the explanation for things was given the first time and my expectation of obedience first clearly spelled out, then at the first signs of backtalking I could raise my eyebrow, initially with the stern reminder "obedience first" but then only with the eyebrow and I would simply be busy with something immediately so obviously discussion ended with the request. It didn't take long.
Of course, there is also the inappropriately phrased clarification which must be answered right away. "I can't, I'm getting something" when what should be said is". "Mom I'd be happy to wipe the table for you (notice the attitude of obedience first), but dad just asked me to get his cup, is it Okay if I finish that for dad first?" Now, granted, it is very rare that we would be unaware of another parent's request with a 6 yo but it can happen from time to time.
Going back to the park situation. I've given the warning, etc. and set them up as best I can for success with obedience but it is time to go. Now I tell them, it is time to go and I see signs of approaching backtalk. Before they have a chance to start, I turn and walk towards the car, assuming that of course they will obey. It is amazing how quickly it is obvious that I will not enter debate and they might as well just come on. No use doing anything else.
If I had to I could simply make a consequence for not being at the car when ... I never had to even mention a consequence but once.
Janet
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dawn2006
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Thanks, again, everyone. I spent yesterday pointing out to him the disrespectful attitude and today he's been to his room twice. Even though that was the logical consequence I set up it still seems awfully like time-out to me. And this is another subject entirely but...is it really impossible to parent successfully WITHOUT ever punishing in some way? It seems that bringing about change in behavior through coercion/fear isn't really getting to the heart of the matter. BUT...if I'm looking to set up good habits than I can see where it would be almost necessary. Otherwise, if you let the misbehavior go on w/o negative consequences than your helping your child set up a habit alright...just not one that's positive.
I feel like I"m sort of failing in the peaceful parenting dept. by setting up logical consequences that look a lot like punishment.
ETA: That just with the last day and a half his attitude is sooo much better!!
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Angie Mc
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ALmom wrote:
For the inquisitiveness, If I need to model the appropriate way to say something, I'd make her rephrase it politely - but again the task had to first be completed. After the explanation for things was given the first time and my expectation of obedience first clearly spelled out, then at the first signs of backtalking I could raise my eyebrow, initially with the stern reminder "obedience first" but then only with the eyebrow and I would simply be busy with something immediately so obviously discussion ended with the request. It didn't take long.
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We fondly call this "the look." My mother, the sweetest church lady you'll ever meet, has "the look" which sends chills down the spines of the toughest man (that's my dad  .) She has handed this handy-dandy look to me  .
Janet, you describe so well what we call different levels of "heat." Our children know that we work to use the lowest level of heat to get the job done. But if the children don't feel the heat, we turn it up until they do. "The look" is a low level of heat, a gentle reminder...which gets me to my disposition...
Because I'm a natural hot-head, I have had to work hard to make sure that my expression of emotion is proportionately fitting to the situation. Most of the time, a matter-of-fact approach (as Janet described,) is so helpful to my children and to me. "The look" has a matter-of-fact intention. When I walk to my van while leaving the park and expect my children to follow, my intention (ideally) is a matter-of-fact one...not huffy, not threatening.
And...stalling...I also point out stalling behavior. Sometimes I even ask, "Are you stalling?" I clarify, "This is work time, not discussion time. Thank you." This also fits in with the above idea of keeping our directives short and to the point. One friend of mine calls it the "Say it in 10 words or less" rule. She noticed that her children blocked her out after ~10 words, so she challenged herself to be brief. I've been know to stand in front of my children and count my words on my 10 fingers as I struggle to be brief and not lose my temper  .
Great converstation, ladies. Thank you.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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dawn2006 wrote:
Thanks, again, everyone. I spent yesterday pointing out to him the disrespectful attitude and today he's been to his room twice. Even though that was the logical consequence I set up it still seems awfully like time-out to me. And this is another subject entirely but...is it really impossible to parent successfully WITHOUT ever punishing in some way? It seems that bringing about change in behavior through coercion/fear isn't really getting to the heart of the matter. BUT...if I'm looking to set up good habits than I can see where it would be almost necessary. Otherwise, if you let the misbehavior go on w/o negative consequences than your helping your child set up a habit alright...just not one that's positive.
I feel like I"m sort of failing in the peaceful parenting dept. by setting up logical consequences that look a lot like punishment.
ETA: That just with the last day and a half his attitude is sooo much better!! |
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Dawn, what has helped me is to look at my parenting skills like a tool box. I want my parenting tool box to be filled with a variety of tools to fit a variety of needs. If I only fill it with *peaceful parenting* tools or *stern parenting* tools, I may, without intent, be limiting myself and depriving my child of what he or she needs. I love being peaceful in my mothering. I love the goal of raising peaceful children. I love a peaceful home environment. I have found that most of the time, peaceful parenting tools work. Yet, sometimes I need to choose other tools and offer them from a peaceful heart. For example, for one child, time-out is an awful tool because it doesn't fit. The child needs a parent to help him or her through emotions that are out of control. For another child, collecting themselves in a private space is exactly what is needed. If I refuse to consider "time-out" as a parenting tool because of how others have defined it or used it, my personal space loving child will lose out.
Expecting a 6yo to speak respectfully to you at all times is a doable and realistic goal (unless he has a special condition to consider.) He is able to understand that "In this family we speak to each other respectfully." He can understand that "Momma doesn't let anyone speak disrespectfully to her." He can understand that dad expects him to "Speak respectfully to momma." He can understand that he is choosing to not be in your space as soon as he chooses to speak disrespectfully. He can understand that "We both want the same thing; to feel right and loving with each other." He can understand that "Disrespectful talk feels awful for all involved (to include the person talking, the person the talk is directed at, and those in ear-shot.)" He can understand that you "Will miss him while he is away" and that you "Will look forward to having him back." He can understand that he is expected to apologize and that you will gladly forgive him. You are not being fear-based or coercive. You are setting up reality based boundaries for a child which is a very loving and peaceful thing for a loving and peaceful momma to do .
Love,
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lapazfarm
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Very well said, Angie. All of it. I love it! 
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dawn2006
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"We both want the same thing; to feel right and loving with each other
I told him this today! Now I feel like I'm on the right track. Thank you for your kind words, Angie.
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Dawn Farias | wife to Ariel | mom to Gabriel 9, Daniel 7, Elizabeth 5, and Michael 3 | blogger at Be Absorbed | native Texan but currently living near Seattle
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ALmom
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When I used a send to the room option, it was with an out of control child who needed space (as Angie described so well - along with a description of a full tool box - love that). I'm a hot head so I have to work hard at not melting down myself . One of the things I always said to my dc, when folks are so cranky, there is only one reason I can think of and that is being overly tired, so a rest period is in order. So, it is a natural consequence. And to make it even more obvious, I have sent myself to my room before. Mom is cranky, she must need some rest (what I really needed is a few minutes of silence before my short fuse blew).
I have also very calmly sat in the car with a child while everyone else went into the zoo. We only had to do that one once but this child was relishing in getting everyone in trouble - ie acting up when we were far from home and had some sort of treat planned for after the event and drive. In this case, I could be very sympathetic and I also arranged a face saving technique after he and I sat in the car for a few hours. We drove around in circles and saw some such thing that he knew and I knew didn't at all draw interest - but I went along with it and let him tell his stuff with my reinforcement when everyone else came back talking about the zoo. I also gave my look if anyone else dared to even hint at bringing up the earlier loss of the zoo. Everyone learned and gained from the experience.
I had one child who melted at the slightest rise in my voice. With her we actually used humor and talked about frying the crabbies for dinner immediately after a stern voice. Others I have had to carry to their room for a rest time. Each is so unique and you keep trying to calmly find the ticket to the heart with each child.
The big key is that no matter what tool I used, it had to be used in a calm, very matter of fact, non-emotional way. If I blew up, even the most effective tool is useless as the child just sees your injustice and not their own problem. It was better to delay (one reason I will sometimes walk away from the back talk - it lets me gain control of my emotions so I can be the parent I need to be) than to blow up for me because of my temper(something I've spent my whole life working to control).
Janet
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Want to begin training for the habit of..
