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tovlo4801
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| Posted: June 29 2005 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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Stef's question about music, the discussion that followed and a developing situation in my own home makes me wonder about your perspectives on setting boundaries for your children as parents.
My son has two very good friends from the neighborhood who he spends large amounts of time with. Both boys go to the local ps. One boy comes from an evangelical Christian family who's dad is an elder in the church. The other boy comes from a single parent family (dad died of a heartattack) and has no identifiable religious affiliation. For the past several years I've let the friendship develop because they both seemed to be good kids. I did have worries about the future though. I worried that the non-religious boy would start going astray in the teen years without a base of faith to guide him and I worried that the evangelical boy would start trying to sway my son away from his Catholic faith as they got older. The evangelical worry has not developed yet, but the non-religious boy is starting to show signs of moving in a direction I'm uncomfortable with.
He still seems like a good kid at his core, but one with destructive secular influences forming who he is. When my son was younger I thought this friendship would either turn out one of two ways. Either the strength of character of my son and the other boy would be a good influence on the secular boy, or the secular boy would take the lead and be the influence over the other two. I'm afraid I see the latter situation happening. Yesterday they came over and asked me to take them to the local grocery store to get a video game. I agreed without thinking too much about it. When they got there they wanted to rent a game that when I later checked it out on the internet was described as a good game to have around if you have blood-thirsty friends. Not exactly what I would hope my ds was playing. I knew that he played games rated T over there, but my understanding was that it was only The Lord of the Rings game. I decided that even if that was violent, the moral underpinnings of the story offset that.
The upshot is that I don't want him over at this boys house playing games that I don't approve of. We invested in a PS2 this summer thinking that we could lure the boys over here where I'd have more control. This was a complete bust. My older son still spends all his time at the other boys house playing games and now my youngest seems to be addicted to the game system! I told my oldest yesterday privately that I was concerned about the game and that I needed him to honestly tell me what he thought about it. He admitted that it was bloody and that there was killing of people in the game. I think my dh and I are going to have to start pulling in the reigns to this friendship, but I'm not really sure how to do this. They live down the street and they currently come over in the morning banging on the door to play and then they are in and out of each of our houses all throughout the day.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to start scaling back this friendship or possibly arguments for why I shouldn't. If the argument is that I shouldn't pull back on the friendship, then I need suggestions for handling the exposure my ds is getting to violet games and quite possibly other things I'd probably not approve of.
I'm also curious about your general perspective on setting boundaries. The evangelical boy down the street for example has one parent who believes in a "quarantine" perspective. This is keeping the children away from anything that might infect them to keep them healthy. The other parent follows a more "inoculation" type perspective. This is allowing exposure to the unpleasant things in this world and teaching them how to deal with them so that when they are eventually attacked by these things as adults they will be able to defend themselves. Honestly I probably tend more toward the "inoculation" perspective, but I just don't know and I'd be curious to hear what you guys think.
Thanks for any thoughts in advance!
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Maureen
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| Posted: June 29 2005 at 11:26am | IP Logged
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Focus on the Family recently had 2 broadcasts concerning video games. You may want to check it out.
Focus on the Family Broadcast: Video Games Part One
A friend once gave me an illustration of two people, one standing on a chair and one on the floor. It is much easier to pull someone "down" to a lower level than it is to pull someone "up" to a higher one.
God Bless
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Maureen, mom to 8 treasures
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juliecinci
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| Posted: June 29 2005 at 11:55am | IP Logged
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"quarantine" versus "innoculation"
Those are descriptive terms. What they both have in common is someone external to the child attempting to control the outcome of that child's behaviors, relationships and exposures. With teens, I feel like it's too late for that approach.
I want to start in a different place: relationship.
That sounds trite, I know, but for me it's the crux of the matter.
Have you chatted with your son about the relationship he is having with his friend? How does he see it changing? Does he enjoy him as much as before? What does he think about the video games in question? Can he tell you what he truly thinks or might he worry that if he tells you his real feelings, he'll wind up with restrictions and no friend?
What if he disagrees with your judgments of the video games? How do differences of opinion and values get resolved in your family? Is the parent ipso facto the one who decides? If so, what are the consequences when that occurs in your relationship with your child?
Does the teen know he gets to have a different opinion? Can he act on it? Under what circumstances?
These are the kinds of conversations we keep having with our teens. They are long, uncomfortable and make me very happy to still have an eight year old around. 
But they are productive. I gain confidence as I watch our teens stay connected to us.
The hardest thing for me to give up as a parent was the strong desire to control the outcome of all my years of parenting. I really wanted to assure the vision I had of my child and to protect him from what I saw as destructive.
All I've had to do is click around on the Internet to discover how many kids really aren't absorbing their parents' teaching and in fact are either openly or secretly rebelling against it. (Live Journal posts, forums for ex-Christians and ex-Catholics, websites dedicated to religious abuse and fundamentalism, blogs by disgruntled young adults who are so glad to be away from their parents)
How many of us here "rebelled" against our parents by becoming Christians or Catholics? We feel justified because we are on a path we deem moral and righteous. But I know if I look at my family, my dad was deeply disappointed in me. He saw me wasting my life and not doing the things he thought he'd raised me to do (when I became a missionary).
We must own our values from the inside out. Our kids need room to figure out what theirs are.
I know it's dicey trying to determine when something seems like it's too damaging to take that risk. Still, in dialog with the teen in question, it becomes a little less principle oriented and more person oriented. That's the direction I want to move in. I want to deal with my teen as he is, not as I hope he will be.
A book that helped me a lot in this struggle to raise teens is Yes Your Teen is Crazy by Dr. Michael Bradley.
Dr. Bradley's website
Julie
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Julie
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: June 29 2005 at 2:34pm | IP Logged
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Maureen,
Thanks for the link. I went there and it looks very interesting. I can't listen right now because the threesome of boys is over here goofing around and I'd rather listen by myself first, but I can't wait to hear what he has to say.
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: June 29 2005 at 3:25pm | IP Logged
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Julie,
You raise some interesting points. You mentioned the issue of parents trying to control the outcome by changing the externals. I'm surprised a bit by my reaction to that because education-wise my attitude lately has been reflecting the reality that a parent can't make their child learn. Lately though, I've come to a middle ground that recognizes that though a parent can't make the child learn, they can create an environment that encourages the child by exposure to quality things. Ultimately it still is true that they will truly learn only what they personally take up. I'm thinking along these same lines with general parenting. Of course I can't "create" the perfect child just by adjusting the externals. As in education how he ultimately decides to go about living his life will be chosen by him. However, as a parent I believe I do have the responsibility to exercise to some extent the control I have over his environment. It is a tricky balance. If you try to impose too much control you risk alienating them and pushing them to rebellion. If you take too hands off an approach you just leave them to the wolves of sin who won't be at all timid about trying to exercise their control.
I do have frequent conversations with my son about his friends. I try not to approach it from a perspective of disapproval. The truth is I like his friends a lot. I have been very open with my son about my concern that the secular friend does not have the rock of faith to guide his decisions and at some point might be swayed to begin making bad choices. We've talked together about how he might handle certain situations. We've talked for quite some time about the real possibility that he might need to abandon this friendship. He has always expressed understanding about this. Right now he is in a place where I think he truthfully sees the level of violence in the games they play, but he doesn't see it as a problem. I do. He knows this. I do worry about him not telling me the truth because he fears repurcussions, but I can't just step back and not speak the truth to him about things that could be harmful to him so he will always be honest with me. I will not have done him any favors.
I try to walk the tightrope between alienating him and guiding him on a path of morality, but it's difficult. I think the key here might be praying for discernment that I am not being selfish. My discipline needs to come from a place of love and that needs to be clear to him. If I am disciplining because I want him to behave a certain way so he will impress everyone at the homeschool co-op and that makes me look good, he'll sense that this is not about his best interests. If I discipline because in prayer I believe that he is heading down a path that will cause him harm, I hope that I am able to communicate that to him in, if not a way he agrees with, at least a way he can understand. Look - here we are back at your original point about developing relationships!
In this particular case, I do think deep down he sees that this is going in a dangerous direction, but he's so immersed in these friendships and it has always been so fun and well, what would he do if he couldn't play with these friends anymore? I don't think anything dangerous enough is going on for him to be able to intellectually make that decision yet. But his exposure is harming him already. The way this boy talks and behaves has indications of a life that is moving with the culture. My son has strong convictions about what is right and wrong. Primarily they reflect the opinions held by those important to him up to this point - us. He is still a child though. His opinions will be influenced and change a great deal over the next several years. How much influence do I want to allow this boy who is taking his cues from the culture to have over the convictions my son will hold five years from now?
I still don't really know what to do about it. On one hand I think that this friend (in his complete innocence about the higher things faith has to offer), will lead my son into danger and I should do what is in my control to sever that potential. On the other hand, this boy is completely innocent. Is it truly fair for the Christians in the world to just abandon the kids who are being swept away by culture in order to protect our own children? I truly believe this kid is a good kid deep down. My son sees this too. I think that's why my warnings don't completely make sense to him. I keep thinking that there must be a way to minimize the influence this kid can have on my own child without dropping the positive influence exposure to our family might have. I guess I just don't know how to exert this influence. I've already seen the limits to my influence in my attempt to move the game playing party over here.
Of course there is always prayer. I haven't been praying specifically about this relationship and this child and I can see in writing this all out that this needs to become a priority.
This has been a really long post with lots of thinking out loud here. Thanks for listening to my ramble.
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 29 2005 at 7:24pm | IP Logged
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Is it possible to discuss the Near Occassions of Sin? If he can come to see the problem of violence and how that has subtle influences on him, perhaps he can recognize some of it.
Is it the video games? Or is it more? What are the standards set?
A friend of ours had a rule that her child could play with the neighborhood kids but when the language got bad, or talk went to inappropriate areas: he was to leave. It took some time for the child to develop the inner courage to actually leave - they talked about temptation and how we sometimes don't like to recognize evil because it is enticing. He eventually came to the point where he was leaving frequently and then, he got tired of always having to go and come back so he just told the boys he wasn't going to come back if the problem persisted. They cleaned up their language at least when he was there.
Some of it, I think, was the art of protecting and controlling the environment to some extent especially in the younger years while allowing more and more room as the child was not only older but had clearly absorbed the values being imparted. The child was taught to turn head and study the candy rather than the half - dressed ladies on women's magazines when very young. A lot of living lessons taught in very natural ways and real discernment with when to allow more interaction with the outside world and what rules that interaction would have with it.
This mom also clearly demonstrated that in her own behavior by leaving a room when there was gossip or information being discussed that was none of her business. She also started training hers to this at a much younger age (9/10 I think was the incident with the neighborhood child)
I wish I'd seen this mom's example before I had teens as she really did closely supervise - so she knew what was going on. Her child did not go in the other person's house but stayed outdoors with the other kids. This way she knew the conversations. As the child grew to be a teenager, there was already a lot of practice in the art of resisting temptation under direct guidance so that he did come to mom and dad for guidance on how to handle different things that came up. I really don't think they've ever had any difficulties with decisions made in the teenage years and seen tremendous self-control and peer resistance, although there is some lonliness in that - it was chosen as the better way by the child.
We are addressing some similiar issues in different areas with a daughter and continue to talk and try to help her see her way to an answer. We have tried to guide but have regulated when we felt necessary. Did we chose the right balance? We hope so and try to communicate more of our reasons for what we do to this child. We make great strides in reaching her, she sees what we are saying and agrees in her heart - until faced with the temptation again. Mind you- we are not talking about anything sinful happening - we are just sharing the wisdom of having more experience and less emotions involved. She has made some very strong promises to herself that we are very proud of and know she keeps. I do find I re-act more strongly whenever I sense a secretiveness and I do share that with her. I have also sensed a certain pulling away that has required me to let go more - while at the same time never ceasing to be a parent. We are still trying to find that appropriate level of guidance too.
Janet
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: June 29 2005 at 11:10pm | IP Logged
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Janet,
Thanks for your post. You really highlighted some things that I need to think through. Right now the main symptom is the video games. In conversation with this boy, I can see that he is heavily influenced by culture. However, he has always been very polite and well-behaved. There has never been any crude or sexual comments. There's normal pre-teen boy silliness, but that's all.
I realized tonight as I thought it over that I've probably overreacted. I've always told myself that they are good kids for now, but you need to watch for anything of concern and then take action. Now that I've started seeing some things of concern, it made sense to take action before it got even more difficult. As Julie pointed out though, that might not be the best course of action. I can see how it would be better to honestly talk with him about things and help him learn to make the right decisions rather than just taking that responsibility away from him.
I can see that I should spend more time talking specifically about near occasions of sin and how to avoid them. I love the example of the mom leaving the room herself when there was gossip going on! That really makes me examine myself. I would have a very hard time doing that. Yet I expect my son to have the courage to do it.
The truth is far too often my decisions are just "easiest" for me. It's easier to just set a limit on the relationship than it is to really get involved and see what's regularly going on. It's easier to just lay out what I believe is "best" for him rather than take the time to consistently guide him through growing in virtue in difficult situations. It's easier to just relax the standards when he goes along with bad decisions than to take the time to help him grow in courage.
I think you all have helped me move closer to the answer that I need to pursue. I will continue pray for wisdom to know the right way to approach this. Thanks for all your guidance.
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juliecinci
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| Posted: June 30 2005 at 7:47am | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
The truth is far too often my decisions are just "easiest" for me. It's easier to just set a limit on the relationship than it is to really get involved and see what's regularly going on. It's easier to just lay out what I believe is "best" for him rather than take the time to consistently guide him through growing in virtue in difficult situations. It's easier to just relax the standards when he goes along with bad decisions than to take the time to help him grow in courage.
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So true!
I had no idea parenting teens would be so challenging and exhausting. I trusted that all of our closeness from the early years would result in kids who basically shared my values and who would continue in closeness to us.
What I discovered is that they become more and more individuals with their own thinking (rational and irrational) that must be worked through again and again. I have learned to say what I think, but also to do a lot more listening. If I'm talking, I'm not learning anything new. They've heard my rap over and over. What I haven't heard is how they are interpreting what I've said, what they hear from their friends and so on.
It does seem easier on the front end to make policies and enforce them. But we're finding it hasn't been easier on the back end.
I so agree with what you said here.
My older two have told me at times that I ought to be down on my knees thanking God for what good kids they are. And I do. I know they are great kids. They tell me about kids who do all kinds of things behind their parents' backs and they both tell me they don't. I hope that's true. We'll find out in fifteen years, right?
Julie
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juliecinci
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| Posted: June 30 2005 at 8:04am | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I try to walk the tightrope between alienating him and guiding him on a path of morality, but it's difficult. I think the key here might be praying for discernment that I am not being selfish. My discipline needs to come from a place of love and that needs to be clear to him. If I am disciplining because I want him to behave a certain way so he will impress everyone at the homeschool co-op and that makes me look good, he'll sense that this is not about his best interests. |
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So true. I know some of my fears of letting go have had to do with how other people would evaluate our choices.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| If I discipline because in prayer I believe that he is heading down a path that will cause him harm, I hope that I am able to communicate that to him in, if not a way he agrees with, at least a way he can understand. Look - here we are back at your original point about developing relationships! |
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One thing I discovered is that any limitation costs the relationship. So what Jon and I try to determine ahead of time is which cost we are more willing to pay. For us, having a resentful, shut down teen is most worth it if the issue at hand is one where he is in imminent danger.
From there, we've tried to always think about how he can get what he wants so that both parties (both Noah and us, the parents) feel peaceful and good about the decisions.
Of course that means hours and hours of talking.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| In this particular case, I do think deep down he sees that this is going in a dangerous direction, but he's so immersed in these friendships and it has always been so fun and well, what would he do if he couldn't play with these friends anymore? |
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That's a toughie.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| I don't think anything dangerous enough is going on for him to be able to intellectually make that decision yet. But his exposure is harming him already. The way this boy talks and behaves has indications of a life that is moving with the culture. |
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Maybe this is a dumb question: but how does it harm him to be exposed to a kid going with the culture? Are you concerned that his convictions aren't firm enough yet?
tovlo4801 wrote:
| My son has strong convictions about what is right and wrong. Primarily they reflect the opinions held by those important to him up to this point - us. He is still a child though. His opinions will be influenced and change a great deal over the next several years. How much influence do I want to allow this boy who is taking his cues from the culture to have over the convictions my son will hold five years from now? |
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For us, we came to the conclusion that it was important for our kids to test our convictions while they live at home. My husband teaches at a university (has for 15 years). Kids often go wild in college...
I would like to encounter some of this before they leave home so that we can be a part of the process. Even their questions about the culture and faith are important to me because this is where we live, this is our home. America is all around us. I want them to feel a sense of competence and control, rather than overwhelm when they leave our protection.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| Is it truly fair for the Christians in the world to just abandon the kids who are being swept away by culture in order to protect our own children? I truly believe this kid is a good kid deep down. My son sees this too. I think that's why my warnings don't completely make sense to him. I keep thinking that there must be a way to minimize the influence this kid can have on my own child without dropping the positive influence exposure to our family might have. |
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Maybe instead of thinking about influence, it might be less tiring to think about peacefulness and joy. If this child comes to your house and gets to eat fun foods, has dinner with a happy family, does novel things at your house (like croquet or badminton or painting a bedroom or deck, an overnight with pizza and DVDs..), he'll gain memories that will feed him.
Can he be taken along on a nature hike that the family goes on? Or to the beach? Or out to a family night of lazer tag?
When I was in a hurting family, my best friend's family let me eat dinner at their house every Friday night. The mother had us help her make spaghetti sauce from scratch. I loved it! I wanted to be like them and to this day find myself returning to the vision of happy family that they created in me at a time when I didn't have one.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| I guess I just don't know how to exert this influence. I've already seen the limits to my influence in my attempt to move the game playing party over here. |
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If gaming is his thing, then perhaps you can offer soemthing different.
Do you know his mother at all? Can they all come for a BBQ one weekend?
I hope I don't sound like I have answers. My oldest was the butt end of bullying in California when we lived there, no matter how many ways we tried to fit into the neighborhood (through parties, BBQs etc.). So I know it doesn't always work.
But I thought I'd throw out some of the things, especially since this is your child's friend (not a bully).
Peace,
Julie
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Julie
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: June 30 2005 at 12:07pm | IP Logged
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Julie,
You are so wise. I know you don't have all the answers, but you sure do have a lot of really good suggestions.
You asked a question about where my concern with this boy absorbing the culture was coming from. You're guess was right. I do worry that my son's convictions aren't strong enough. You've already answered my worry in your post. I was (am) worried that so far we've been his strongest influence and he's just taken whatever we've told him as obviously true. Sometimes it's actually bothered me and I'd challenge him to see the other side just so he'd get used to not just taking what people he trusted said as the only possible answer. Now that he's getting older I can see that soon others will be stepping up and becoming more influencial in his life. I worry that he will just accept what these new influences in his life say as truth.
You made a very good point about needing to have time to test ideas and learn to own them. It's all about beginning to let go isn't it? I remember when I was younger reading a story about a wonderful mom. The story described her teaching her child to walk at first with a strong grip. Then as the child gained skill and strength, lightening that grip until it was just a light touch. Eventually she was able to just gently let the fingertips come away and her daughter walked alone.
I remember always thinking that I hoped I would be the kind of parent who knew when my child needed a strong grasp and when they were ready for me to let go. I think you are right that my son is moving toward needing a lighter grip so that he can begin to test his own strength and learn to walk alone.
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: June 30 2005 at 12:38pm | IP Logged
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Julie,
I have something about all of this that keeps nagging at my mind - my own childhood. I was raised by my dad and stepmom. My dad loved me, but was not a wonderful example and was VERY lenient. Several people in the small community we lived in actually accused my dad of child neglect at various points in my brother and my teenage years.
By the time we were in 9th grade we were involved in heavy partying and the "popular" crowd. I truly didn't know any better. (Maybe that's why I have so much sympathy for the neighbor boy. I was that innocent child who was taken away by the culture because I believed that was just what you did.)
Most of the people who knew us during that time can't believe how good both my brother and I turned out. We both by the time we were juniors in highschool had figured out that it really wasn't all that fun to go out get drunk, do stupid things you don't completely remember in the morning, and feel rotten sick the next day. We also figured out that the "popular" kids who were doing this weren't really nice people and we had no real friendships. We both managed to find good, fun kids to hang out with who chose not to drink.
When I was young I knew that the reason I didn't go nuts when I got to college was because I had the freedom as a teen to figure these things out. Those kids who came from stricter families were the ones who went nuts and partied all the time in college.
As I became an adult, especially after I came to faith, I began to realize that, yes the kids from stricter families did go crazy at first with freedom, but they settled down pretty quickly. They had a strength of moral upbringing behind them that guided them. The truth also is that many of the "good" kids never really went nuts at all and I still partied in college even though I'd supposedly figured this all out.
I'm still trying to figure out morality and I suffer for the lack of guidance I received as a kid. It's true what I do have I really own, but would I have been better off if I hadn't just been left to the wolves? Also, I know that my brother and I were truly lucky. There are many, many, many kids who were left to the wolves who never make it back. They struggle with addictions and sin in their life that they will struggle to shake off for their whole lives.
I think I worry about the more hands-off suggestion because it suggested what I grew up with and I now understand that I suffer some serious consequences from my father taking such a hands-off approach.
After contemplating it, I think now that what you're really suggesting is a gradual process of letting go and providing a quiet safety net through relationship to prevent the child from falling too far. Have I understood the distinction?
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 30 2005 at 9:02pm | IP Logged
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Richelle,
I can identify with what you are saying - and perhaps one thing that helps is stepping back when there is panic and thinking things through - not acting from a point of fear but from a point of real discernment and information - which sounds like what you are doing.
I have also found it harder to step back with my more reticent children. Some are real talkers and would say everything about what is going on. I'm very relaxed with them. The one that I have the hardest time with is the one that just personality wise tends to ponder things by herself and doesn't say much to anyone. I worry more and don't want to be the interrogator - nor do I want to be the enforcer, but I do want to know what is going on with her. We tend to read each others body language but sometimes misinterpret it. If I'm down or frustrated she often thinks I'm mad at her. If she is quiet, I sometimes think she is upset, stressed, etc. I should know she is the type that likes to be left with her thoughts for a little while and then when the littles are in bed, we can sit and chat more. We are a lot alike.
Sounds like the normal first child to hit teenage years kind of thing and it is just as hard for the parents who are learning when it is safe to let go and when not. My dd and I talk a lot about how, in some ways, her younger sister has it a little easier because we've learned a lot in our dealings with her.
My dd was extremely picky about clothing until about 13 - would only wear dresses (mostly wonderful, in my eyes, jumpers) and then one night (all in one night) she told me she had to have blue jeans, nail polish and make-up and gave all her jumpers to her younger sister. I remember asking her to at least give me overnight to get used to the idea. All very innocent of course - but hard for me cause I'd never had to let go before and I really did like her feminine and modest jumpers. She did get the blue jeans and nail polish and eventually make-up. The first time she put on nail polish, we were at the zoo and she was wearing shorts, sandals and bright red nail polish. My dh and I both cringed - I over-reacted and said no more bright red nail polish. She was very obedient and then a few days later asked me about what was wrong with the nail polish. I didn't even know and had to admit as much to her and asked for a few days to ponder it as she deserved an answer. We thought about it and realized we had been unfair to this dd, went back to her and told her so and that she was old enough to make her own decisions about nail polish, the red had bothered us because of connotations we were aware of but that she would have no way of knowing and that we had reacted as if she knew all those things and that the way we should have handled the situation was to explain the image that the combination of shorts and red nail polish evoked and get her to think about whether or not that was the image she wanted to portray about herself. It's funny but we had talked about assuming the best in people being a part of not making rash judgements - and here we reacted in a way that assumed the worst about her with absolutely no reason to and we admitted that we should have known better and I had made an emotional reaction without thinking what it all meant. I noticed that she never wore the red polish again (even with other stuff) and later she told me how hard it had been to obey when I had forbid it and how much she wanted to wear the red finger nail polish. She didn't want to once she was allowed to and knew the image that it created with shorts. She does wear blue and, I must admit, it is not my favorite but we have tried to not interfere when it is not an issue of modesty or presenting an image of herself that she would be unaware of. It was great for me to realize that it is possible to regain balance even when you have over-reacted. One or many mistakes are not going to create a communication barrier if we are honest about our mistakes.
Her dad helps a lot because he is a better listener and sometimes he'll let me know how something I've said was understood by this dd. I've learned to express all my panic concerning this dd with my dh first and then with his less emotional and more reasoned assessment we are better able to communicate with her. Sometimes, as someone said, it is a matter of just seeing something from their perspective and listening to them - but sometimes it is something that requires us to be parents and give guidance in some manner. It is rare that something really has to be forbidden when they are older and brought up with solid values - but if we see it as a serious safety matter involving her physical or moral well-being, then that is different.
We have had some rules from early on that have been givens - no sleep overs, we have never had the computer game systems and T.V. is not turned on in our house without a parent. The computer is used to type papers - but anything involving the internet requires our permission and any computer games that we have (baseball, jump-start 1st grade) are by permission only and of limited duration. I can already see with our 11 yo son that we are going to have to consider how to handle some of this as he gets older. It has never even been questioned by the girls. With all our younger, we simply have a rule that they do not watch T.V. or videos or play video games at anyone else's house - we want to be there and discern with them. It also means we don't ever have to come across as judge of someone else's rules - ie which friends is it OK to sleep over with, etc. As they get older, we have made exceptions for specific requests for specific movies.(never for spend the night). We have discussed various things out there and why we felt it not so good. It will be interesting to see how our dd fairs this week at her music camp. One night is movie night and she asked us about it. We told her to use her best judgement - some of the movies are ones we really would rather she not see, one is fine and the others I know nothing about. We did discuss how she might handle things if something was chosen that she was not comfortable with - and we let them know they can always fall back on blaming mom and dad.
I know all of these are areas of prudential judgement and perhaps we have been a little strict. Only time will tell - but we felt they needed time to absorb our values first - we watched some things and read some things and discussed them - we just didn't want them inundated outside the home away from our influence until they were older. We were probably a little slower with recognizing that growing up with our oldest - mom and dad's own growing pains, but with prayer, continued efforts to listen and understand, lots of I'm sorry and forgiveness all the way around, God manages to work good even out of our mistakes. I think the children understand we love them and are trying to do the right thing by them and that message gets across despite all the bumps, bruises and mistakes.
Janet
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juliecinci
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| Posted: June 30 2005 at 9:37pm | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
After contemplating it, I think now that what you're really suggesting is a gradual process of letting go and providing a quiet safety net through relationship to prevent the child from falling too far. Have I understood the distinction? |
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I think that is a fair description.
I, too, had lenient parents but never did drugs or drank in high school. I only drank in college and that was after my parents divorced and all the things I thought were right seemed wrong and vice versa. It only took my a year to see that partying was a bore.
Christianity was instantly appealing to me because it was so moral. I wanted and needed that. What I really wanted were involved people who would give me reasons for a solid direction in life. I got that through the campus ministry.
I have noticed that in our family, we are less strict with our younger ones now that the older ones have experienced more (I guess that happens somewhat naturally too). But your comment about things being gradual and bounded by relationship is the key for us.
I remember on a parenting loop I'm on, a mom I respect said that we need to begin with helping our children have what they want. If what they want strikes us as bad or immoral or wrong, it isn't enough to simply say so and end the conversation. That's the beginning of a long conversation.
It's better to discover what about the experience, event, situation is the draw. What need does the child think it will meet? Is there an equivalent or another version that would make all of us happy?
That was a big turning point for me and my dh.
So when one of my kids "shocks" me with an interest I would never consider, I try to find out first what about it is enticing and why the child is interested. Then we can explore what it looks like from an adult pov versus a teen pov and see if we can come up with ways for everyone to win.
I also try to do some investigating so I operate from knowledge rather than knee-jerk stereotypes and preconceptions.
Since we've adopted that attitude, I can only think of one or two times where we were at such odds that we made a decision for the child that the child did not accept or like. Almost every other time, we've been able to try their idea (Okay, so you would like to play that computer game for six hours to see if you can beat it in one sitting... let's try it for one day and see how you feel at the end of it. Will you be up for an outing to the YMCA the next day with the rest of us?) or find a compromise that works for everyone (You are 13 and a girl and want to hang out with homeschooled friends at night in the summer, including three 18 year old homeschooled boys. Can your older brother go along too so we feel more comfortable with you being with all those older kids?).
Most kids want their parents to help them make decisions. They just don't like de facto decisions.
Julie
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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mumofsix
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Dear Richelle,
I don't have much time left before everyone gets up, but I saw your post several days ago and wanted to reply.
I think the whole business of setting boundaries is quite clear-cut.
Considering your son and his friends, how would you describe them?
Are they trustworthy, reliable, kind and do they tell the truth? Are they generally obedient? Do they share your values?
Are they mostly good kids but you have some doubts? Or do you just not know them very well? Or do you know and approve of them, but not know or cannot approve of their parents?
Do they tell lies? Do they smoke, drink, take drugs? Are they involved in negative peer groups or crime or overt s*xual activity? Are they violent?
If your son and his friends are in the first group, they can socialise together safely, both with and without your direct supervision (providing the activity is age-appropriate, etc.).
If your son and/or his friends are in the second group, it might be fine for them to socialise, but only if you or your husband are willing to be with them.
If your son's friends are in the third group, he should drop them immediately. If he himself should ever end up in this group (God forbid) you will have to monitor all his social activities personally and closely for quite some time, until he has again proved his trustworthiness.
As Catholics we are bound to avoid near occasions of sin, and as Catholic parents we are bound to help our children to do so.
Yes of-course always discuss and share and do things together and build attachment. We must pray for our children always. In a difficult situation, the best prayer of all is to have a Mass said for a child.
But in the teen years appropriate parental authority is a necessary pre-requisite for attachment. Without it your children will bond with their peers, and not with you.
Jane.
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: July 08 2005 at 7:15am | IP Logged
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 Well said, Jane! I agree completely. And, after reading Jane's post, I realized that this was exactly what we are doing with our ds-13 and neighborhood friends, only I have never articulated the philosophy so well. It was just a gut feeling. Now, thanks to Jane, I have a handy-dandy reference when I feel uncertain, which is all the time lately, without dh around to shore me up  . There's only so much he can do from three thousand miles away and I sometimes wonder if I'm an overprotective, oversensitive female .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: July 08 2005 at 2:56pm | IP Logged
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Jane,
Nice guidelines. One of the neighbor boys is in the first group and the other boy is in the second.
I think between the relationship building advice, not over-reacting, and you're simple guidelines, I've got a good working plan. I'm working on creating more opportunities for the boys to be over here involved with our whole family. I'm also trying to think of ways to get to know the second boy's mother better.
They have up until now had pretty much free run in the neighborhood, and restricting things to only over here or at the first boy's house will be a little difficult. Yet, some sort of restraint is what I was sensing was needed. I think your suggestion is very practical and moderate.
Now if you all could just send up a few prayers that God support me in strength of will and perseverance to face any resistance and uncomfortable interactions, it would be appreciated. I would much rather avoid difficult situations with people and this often leaves me a little weak in actual implementation.
Thanks for the advice and prayers!
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: setting boundaries
