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setonmom
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| Posted: Feb 17 2011 at 6:29pm | IP Logged
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| Moderator note added: As this topic has gone a different direction away from picture books, some posts are being moved to a new thread in the living literature forum where it is a better fit. It definitely is beneficial to discuss discernment of books for our students. Offering cautions and constructive reviews of books can help parents to make informed decisions. And I've gone with a topic header that reflects that aspect of it rather than a compilation of books to avoid. |
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cmmom wrote:
| Can we start a thread on books to avoid? I have stumbled across some really, really awful ones & maybe we can compile a list of things that are not consistent with our Catholic values. I know of two: Uncle Bobby's Wedding and one that's not a picture book but is for 3-7 graders & is by Patricia MacLachlan (auther of Sarah Plain and Tall) - can you believe it? - cmmom |
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Catherine Called Birdie : mocks Catholicism imho
Number the Stars by Lois Lowry: imho encourages moral relativism
those are the first to that some to mind, but many modern books contain material I feel is problematic, and many have any reference to God or religion edited out ( Unless the story is about an Hispanic family, then publishers will allow a reference to Catholicism); many books about Native Americans, or Africa, or India, will promote the native or eastern religions.
sigh
setonmom
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guitarnan
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You know, as a lifelong student of children's literature, I have to respectfully disagree with the above assessment of Catherine, Called Birdy and Number the Stars. I realize that Catherine, Called Birdy mentions many saints' feast days, religious practices of the Middle Ages, and traditions, some in a tongue-in-cheek manner which is meant to reflect the age and maturity of Catherine, the main character. Some readers might be bothered by the idea that the central character wants to run away to be a monk (of course, she can't, as her brother points out, because she is a girl; she also wants to be a circus performer and many other things to escape the constraints of her social standing and gender). These events don't necessarily disparage the Church; instead, they reflect the traditions and practices of the time and the situation of young women in medieval England. No, Catherine can't see the point of every single thing she's called to do, but she does eventually and of her own free will find a way to accept her parents' wishes while maintaining her sense of self. She definitely admires the saints and believes in God and the hope of Heaven...in a way that seems to me to be pretty realistic for a young teen of the 1200s. My main concern about the book would be the mild references to out-of-wedlock behavior, which makes this book appropriate for older teens only.
I have always loved Number the Stars, a book in which the main character and her family help to shelter their Jewish friends and get them to safety in Sweden. This is my go-to book for a gentle introduction to the very difficult topics of World War II, Nazism and the Holocaust, all of which can be very frightening for young readers. Number the Stars and Snow Treasure (another personal favorite) tell the story of what really happened at an age-appropriate level. As parents, we need to point out that, during World War II, many people engaged in deception to foil the aims of the "Final Solution" even though they had to lie to save Jews and other persecuted groups. Number the Stars offers a way to start the important conversation about the Holocaust.
When I'm deciding which books to present to my children, I like to read the books in advance and think about how my children, at their stages of intellectual and emotional development, might react to them. What works for us might not work for another family - we're military, we're a family of history buffs (except dd, for reasons that I cannot explain), we have lived in Europe and visited Germany several times - my children have a particular perspective on history and have seen for themselves how the German nation has worked to move past the sad history of World War I and II. They've visited military cemeteries (including one in which their great-great-uncle is buried) and know what battlefields look like. I know we're an unusual family in this regard, and I respect the rights of parents to present difficult topics at the times that work best for their children.
I do love books that present the Catholic perspective accurately - my son loved The Winged Watchman, for example - but there are many great books out there for young people that don't have any religious perspective at all, and I'm good with that, too, as long as they don't promote immoral behavior or anti-Catholic attitudes.
What I don't like is books that are overtly anti-Catholic or whose authors are the same (Philip Pullman leaps to mind). When we run across materials like this, I sit down with my children (or my co-op students) and show them how to look for the anti-Catholic biases. This will help them, later in their lives as students and as adults, to see the biases against Catholicism in literature and in media coverage of current or historical events.
I'm not intending to start a debate with this post, but to offer my personal perspective and opinion. I don't like to think about books as "bad," per se, unless they promote witchcraft, devil worship, atheism or other similar topics (again, Philip Pullman leaps to mind, because he has stated in interviews that he wants to spread the message of atheism through his writing). We as parents are called to educate our children, and that means we must discern, through reading and reviewing criticism, which books, short stories, plays, etc. are most appropriate for our own children to read.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Erica Sanchez
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Nancy.
I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I did spend a bit of time in the 'teen' (Young Adult) section of our local library and was horrified! Many of the covers alone were reason enough for me to have my children stay out of there. They do read YA books, but they are ones we request.
I remember a certain author being promoted very favorably by a respected (Catholic) blogger and we checked out some of the books and most were great. One, though, clearly showed a 'family' with two dads.
I share that only to reinforce the idea of pre-reading if you are not sure to see what's appropriate for your family, your children. I'm a terrible pre-reader, so I come here and search, search, search for reviews and suggestions for books. :)
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guitarnan
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Erica, I am a true believer when it comes to pre-reading. (In fact, I've discovered some great - and less-than-great - books that way.)
Some of my dd's friends read books about vampires, tarot cards, etc. that I could not permit in my home.
It's so scary...there are some amazingly inappropriate books out there...but I don't want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater," as it were - if a certain book is secular and developmentally appropriate, and if I've read it, I don't think I should automatically dismiss it because it is not Catholic in theme/subject. This works for me and my husband. He reads some books and trusts me to pre-read the rest.
This is a very appropriate place for me to express my thanks for all the parents who work so hard to discern which reading materials are best for their children. Sometimes this is easy for Mom alone to do, but my experience tells me that a team-parenting approach to pre-reading, reviewing, literature teaching, etc. works very, very well. I know my dh had some great info for me - since I'm not a boy! - when it came time to choose works for our son to read. We really had to work together to make Catholic literature come alive for our son.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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setonmom
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One thing I look at sometimes is Sparknotes. You can get a summary of the book, also you can see what ideas the sparknotes people think you should get from the book.Of course, the book has to be well known enough to be on SParknotes.
I would agree to avoid anything by Philip Pullman. I also do not like Judy Blume.
setonmom
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MaryM
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As mentioned in the note in first post, this discussion was moved from the Picture Book forum to Living Literature as it had shifted and was not about picture books. It is in the older books (beyond picture books) that I find this need for discernment come into play for frequently and it is much harder. A picture book is really easy to pre-read quickly, so less time is spent. With the chapter or YA books its much more of a challenge to pre-read. I think the recommendations or cautions offered by others can provide helpful direction, but Erica is right in that it still does not offer a guarantee that you are going to be okay with something so you can't rely on it.
For newer members, you will find that in past threads there are many examples of authors or books that have been discussed with cautions offered.
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stellamaris
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Quote:
| Moderator Note Added - I moved a few posts from this thread to the Picture Book forum since they pertain to Picture Books directly. The following quote was taken from that moved conversation which can now be found in Books to Avoid. |
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JennGM wrote:
| I do think it's important to be open and mention problematic areas, in case that might be a deal breaker for another person. I just recently had a friend asking me books about St. Valentine and I mentioned that book, but also mentioned about the author. She appreciated the heads-up, but that didn't matter to her. And for me, I find it a way to remember to pray for that author. |
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The excellent book reviews are one thing I especially appreciate here at 4Real. When you, Jennifer, or any of the ladies who have read/previewed a book post your impressions and summaries, it really helps me have a good idea of whether or not that book would fit my own "comfort" zone. Ultimately, though, I have to make the decision myself based on my understanding of the book's contents, my understanding of my child's personality and likely interaction with the material in the book, my child's age and maturity level, and my goals for having a child read a particular book. As much as it would be nice if everything we so cut and dried, I think there are really too many variables to have a hard and fast "list" of acceptable/unacceptable books. Specific and detailed reviews are much more helpful to me in the discernment process.
Not only that, but the list of unacceptable books probably numbers in the thousands! 
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Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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JennGM
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stellamaris wrote:
| Not only that, but the list of unacceptable books probably numbers in the thousands! |
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Yes, as in the case of twaddle, that number is Legion! 
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JennGM
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This thread reminds me of the discussion we've had several times about G. A. Henty's books. This thread gave a list of the problematic titles.
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JennGM
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Another area about discerning book choices I see ias our child gets older, different aspects should be discussed. Different layers are peeled off as the child matures.
An author I love is Louisa May Alcott. I read "Little Women" over and over again. I still love it. I enjoyed many of her other books. But as I got older, I started seeing there was an emphasis on natural goodness and really God and Christianity wasn't really mentioned. But I just couldn't put my finger on it.
Later in high school I found out she was connected with the American Transcendentalist movement and I could see how that did influence her writing.
But that doesn't mean I think her books shouldn't be read. I just think as the child gets older, we go deeper into analysis and discussion.
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Grace&Chaos
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I wasn't at all sure where to put this so here goes. I always try to to find good books for my kids and like mentioned in earlier comments I have found this forum a great source for me as a Catholic mom trying to pass on my (and dh) faith to our children. In my efforts to expand my understanding of CM methods and living books I've tried other sources for input aswell.
I recently read a post about A Crowell Holiday Book St. Patrick's Day by Mary Cantwell. So I thought great we'll give it a try. (Because I'm very open to books and how I can make them sound to my kids).
 I didn't read it to them today. I preread the book and the book sounded like a wonderful living history of St. Patrick and his time. Four pages before it ends I read "Patrick became famous in Ireland, and many tales of his magic were told. They are like fairy tales, and most of them are not true." Two paragraphs giving examples then..."These tales are exciting, but it is the truth about Patrick that makes him great. He saved the Romans' learning for the world."
I almost felt betrayed by the words. I wasn't prepared to read it to them and go into full on explanations about why there is no talk or validity of miracles, the importance of the Holy Trinity or any mention of the Catholic Church (always mentioned as Christian(s)).
This is the first time a book has made me self conscious of my faith and how I choose to present it to my kids.
I chose to read our De Paola book about St. Patrick during our tea time. For our craft we cut out felt clovers and with glitter paint put an F, S and HS on each leaf  .
I'll have to decide if this book will be read next year with some adjustments ... maybe
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Grace&Chaos
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I had to come back. I had a great conversation with my very level headed and logical dh. He reminded me that sometimes books are really intended for a larger or different audience, in this case this is a great living history of why St. Patrick's Day is celebrated in America. Upon looking up this book further it keeps coming up not as a religious book but as a social studies book  . Which is probably why it made such an impression, I don't think of today as an American Holiday to be explained but as a Feast Day in our church.
One of the wonderful things about hs (as I was reminded this evening) is that we get to discern how and what material we present to our children. Our faith is certainly one of the things we want them to appreciate and it does become my job to nurture their very impressionable minds that St. Patrick's Day goes beyond parades and green milk shakes (for example).
I very much appreciate the opinions I've read concerning books and material on this forum. I've mentioned this before but I know there is lots of experience and knowledge on this forum to help guide me through this hs journey.
Discerning our book choices, lesson learned .
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Jenny
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JennGM
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
I had to come back. I had a great conversation with my very level headed and logical dh. He reminded me that sometimes books are really intended for a larger or different audience, in this case this is a great living history of why St. Patrick's Day is celebrated in America. Upon looking up this book further it keeps coming up not as a religious book but as a social studies book . Which is probably why it made such an impression, I don't think of today as an American Holiday to be explained but as a Feast Day in our church.
One of the wonderful things about hs (as I was reminded this evening) is that we get to discern how and what material we present to our children. Our faith is certainly one of the things we want them to appreciate and it does become my job to nurture their very impressionable minds that St. Patrick's Day goes beyond parades and green milk shakes (for example).
I very much appreciate the opinions I've read concerning books and material on this forum. I've mentioned this before but I know there is lots of experience and knowledge on this forum to help guide me through this hs journey.
Discerning our book choices, lesson learned . |
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I'm glad you worked it out. I was sifting through our St. Patrick's choices and borrowed a few from the library I had not seen. There are various aspects about St. Patrick's day -- I even think Tomie dePaola's book makes those distinctions, by delineating his life story and then the legends.
I ended up sticking to Joyce Denham, DePaola, and Ann Tompert for our St. Patrick's books, mainly because I did want to present the saint and his deeds, and not the popular culture. We had fun wearing green and pinching and celebrating as a family, but those were the main event. As my son is reading St. Patrick's Summer by Marigold Hunt, these choiced reinforced his reading and enhanced our discussions.
I personally bristle when a saint's deeds are presented as magical. I just threw out a book on the life of St. Nicholas published by a Protestant press, because they intentionally made him into a "pastor" and not a Catholic priest/bishop. I felt I couldn't get over that.
But there are times when I can overlook somethings, point out the mistakes or misleading text and take the book as a whole. It does depend -- it depends on the child, the book, and our parental discernment. What works for one might not work for another.
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MaryM
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Jenny, thanks for sharing your story with us. I think it does illustrate our need to remember that just becasue someone recommends a book, it might not be a good fit for our family or what we are looking for. Knowing who the recommending source is helps - but just because they are a CM homeschooler, or Catholic, personal friend, or whatever doesn't automatically mean one has the same standards or preferences.
When I give recommendations, even if it is a book I'm okay with, but I sense there is something someone might be concerned about or at least like a head's up on, I will include that to the best of my awareness.
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
One of the wonderful things about hs (as I was reminded this evening) is that we get to discern how and what material we present to our children. Our faith is certainly one of the things we want them to appreciate and it does become my job to nurture their very impressionable minds that St. Patrick's Day goes beyond parades and green milk shakes (for example).
Discerning our book choices, lesson learned . |
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I've been thinking about your question all night, Jenny. I think you've got your answer. Book choices involve personal, parental discernment...and these may vary from family to family. What may be a wonderful, delightful, or even acceptable book for one family, may not be appropriate for another based on their individual needs, faith, discernment.
While there ARE many books that fit a definition of a *living book*, each family further exercises the virtue of prudence in exercising their responsibility to educate their children. Each family may have a different comfort level with a specific book based on sensitivity levels of children, personal prayer/conviction about issues, their differing faith, etc. It comes down to considering the book: who recommends it (and I so appreciate honest reviews like those that members here offer), the author, the content (as much as is known), any reviews I can find, and sometimes stepping out in faith a little based on a recommendation or author. And sometimes, there will be books that don't meet our family criteria even with the most diligent discernment given before a purchase. I've had it happen to me before, but I don't count it as a loss. It's a good reminder that we are unique as a family and often gives me further clues about areas (boundaries) in which I want to be careful in the future in exercising our family prudence. I bought a book a couple of years ago that I took a chance on, but when I got the book I was disturbed by some of the content/wording. It was a picture book with lovely illustrations. I cut the illustrations out of the book, tossed the rest, made a mental note to myself about needing to exercise prudence more carefully in the future, and used the lovely illustrations to decorate various things. All was not lost and I learned a valuable lesson.
I don't know if any of this was helpful, or if it just echoes what you've already learned.
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Jen Mackintosh
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4Real Forums : Living Literature
Topic: Discerning Book Choices
