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Elizabeth
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Katherine's beautiful new blog has me wondering about other rites. How many other rites are there in communion with Rome? How do they fit into the picture of the Universal Church?
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kjohnson
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Thanks, Elizabeth!
There are 23 self-governing churches in the Catholic Church. The largest and best known is the Latin Rite/Roman Catholic Church, which is the Bishop of Rome's immediate jurisdiction. The others have their own code of canon law, catechism, patriarchs, metropolitans, etc...
How these all fit in is very confusing and I don't think that the Pope and the other Eastern Patriarchs have really worked that all out. The Church has been in schism for 1,000 years and since the time of Pope Paul VI, the Bishops of Rome have been tirelessly trying to figure out how the primacy of Rome fits in with the collegiality of bishops as it was in the first thousand years.
If you go to the Byzantine Catholic Church of America's website, you see that Byzantine Catholics are really Orthodox Christians in communion with the Bishop of Rome. We tend to think that everything is just a matter of different worship styles, but the Eastern Churches are really governed independently.
I think the goal of the John Paul II and Benedict in reaching out to the Eastern Orthodox is to view the papacy as the sign of unity among the churches. When Pope Benedict addressed the Ecumenical Patriarch at St. Peter's on the feast of Saints Peter and Paul, he spoke of the role of the Bishop of Rome as being "first in choir," or giving the church a sense of harmony.
There is a reference thread on Catholic Answers describing the 23 self-governing churches here
It explains the difference between the terms "rite" and "self-governing" church (and is also sure to make your head spin!)
HTH
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Elizabeth
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Katherine (since you're just laying there looking for something to do  ),
What is the difference then between the Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome and those that are not? Why are some in and some out? What do the Orthodox Christians not in communion think about, say, the Byzantines?
Easy questions to start, right?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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kjohnson
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Yes, I appreciate having something to do. This bed rest thing is already getting pretty old! 
The difference between Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome and those who are not is just one thing: communion with Rome. Theologically there is not a difference. The difference is that one group sees the importance of being in communion with the Bishop of Rome and the others think the difference in theological emphasis between east and west are a reason for schism.
I won't pretend that the Eastern Churches who came into communion in the 17th century did so because of theological reasons. It was highly political for the most part. They needed the protection that the Bishop of Rome could offer, because at that time he had much political influence. But I don't think that God can't use less than stellar motivations for a greater good. In the last century the Church has felt the need for unity and the popes now see the Eastern Catholic churches as a bridge for unity between the ancient churches of the West and the East.
An Eastern Catholic sees the role of the Pope through the eyes of an Eastern Christian of the first 1,000 years of Church history...a sign of the unity of the Church, the patriarch who is first among equals. An Eastern Orthodox Christian sees the primacy of Rome as being an honor in the early church, but feels that the development of western theology has caused the Roman See to part from the unity of the Church.
As someone who is a chrismated Orthodox Christian and who is now in communion with Rome, I see the differences in theology being like the differences in the accounts of the 4 gospels. They may seem contradictory in some aspects to the secular eye, but with the eye of faith they are really complimentary and together make a beautiful whole.
What do the Eastern Orthodox say about the Byzantines? It depends on who you ask. Some Eastern Orthodox are not in communion with one another over the matter of the Julian and Gregorian calendars, so to them anything western is heresy. Some are middle of the road and think that the Byzantine Catholics are pitiful sell-outs...you walk like a duck, you quack like a duck, but you're not a duck. And some Eastern Orthodox, like my former spiritual father, say that it's not the fault of the faithful who a bishop has aligned themselves with centuries ago. The Orthodox Faith is not tied to a particular bishop.
I've been on an exhausting journey with the whole thing and internalized all the different views (well, not the calendar thing, that has always seemed rather goofy to me). But even though I can't really quite logically comprehend how we're in communion despite the differences, I just remind myself that the East and West were always different and remained in communion for 1,000 years. I just sense peace coming from the Patriarch who is saying that unity is the Will of God and does not wish to emphasize division. The big thing with the Orthodox (Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodox)is that things don't develop, they don't change. So...if the East was in communion with Rome from the beginning, why would I want to change that?
Have you heard the joke about the Orthodox:
How many Orthodox Christians does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: CHANGE?????
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Elizabeth
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So, putting political differences aside, I understand the theological differences to be the Immaculate Conception and the filioque? Is that it?
They differ on openness to life, yes?
Celibacy for priests?
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kjohnson
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The Immaculate Conception is really not a difference in belief, just a difference in explanation. The West defined it as Mary being free from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception. A Byzantine Catholic would say that from the moment of her conception she was graced with the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Both are saying, within their own frameworks, that the Mother of God is pure and sinless. I think the Divine Liturgy references the Theotokos as immaculate and pure 6-8 times. The Roman Catholic definition uses Augustinian language that is foreign to the East (since he was a Latin father) and the Orthodox expression uses the framework of the great Eastern Fathers of the Church.
It's interesting to note what Pope JP II said about the differences in emphasis on this element of faith, "In fact, the negative formulation of the Marian privilege, which resulted from the earlier controversies about original sin that arose in the West, must always be complemented by the positive expression of Mary's holiness more explicitly stressed in the Eastern tradition." (General Audience June 12, 1996) Now, there are some Greek Orthodox theologians in America who have written in error on this topic, but it's heterodox and doesn't reflect Orthodoxy.
For the balanced Orthodox Christian, the filioque is not really an issue as far as doctrine, it's just a matter that the fathers of the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople agreed that the Creed could not be changed outside of a decision by another ecumenical council and the filioque kind of crept its way in beginning in Spain to ward off heresy and slowly made it's way into the western Church. The popes omit the filioque when they are praying with Orthodox Christians. It's really just a shame that the political issues surrounding the matter made it a cause for division. The Byzantine Catholics don't say it in the Creed, but don't think it's a heresy. Many eastern fathers wrote that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, through the Son.
Openness to life. No. The eastern fathers were clear on the evils of contraception. You see a trend in the American Orthodox (particularly the Greek Orthodox Archidiocese of America) in allowing it based on "economia," but it's really no different than the liberal Catholics who try to sell it. In fact, for the devout Orthodox, using natural family planning would only be acceptable under pastoral guidance. There is no difference in moral doctrine between Roman Catholics and Byzantine Catholics because the moral law has God as its source.
The East has always had married priests. It was just used as another unfortunate division (like days of fasting or leavened vs. unleaved bread). However, an eastern bishop must be celibate and they are usually chosen from the monasteries. Celibacy is a gift to the Church, in both traditions.
I think the main difference in eastern and western theology is the expression of the nature of sin and our salvation. The Latin fathers, particularly St. Augustine, fought against the Pelagians and developed a deep tradition of the nature of original sin being an inherited stain and then St. Anselm developed the theology further in Cur Deus Homo in expressing salvation in the terms of substitutionary atonement. The scholastic theologians used these 2 fathers as the basis of their theology. So in the West, when expressing the Fall and Redemption, you hear phrases such as the Fall being an offense against God that justice required reparation or satisfaction, and that Jesus fulfilled the eternal punishment merited by our sins and Purgatory expiates the temporal punishment.
In the east, the understanding of sin is not so much of a punishment but a healing of a wounded-ness. It's not a stain of guilt, but the absence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God is Life and in misusing their free will, Adam and Eve separated themselves from Life and therefore death came into the world. Death is not viewed as a punishment, but as a consequence of our decision to separate ourselves from the source of Life and Light. So the atoning death of Jesus is not seen as making reparation or satisfaction, but that man was held in bondage to death and only He Who is Life could destroy its chains. So Jesus took on human nature, tasted death and transformed it into a passage to eternal life (trampled down death by death).
So penance wouldn't be seen as that which justice required (I've sinned, I'm sorry and am forgiven, but I still have to repair it.) It's seen as a spiritual medicine for healing the damage that our sins have inflicted upon ourselves. I fast because my sins have caused my passions to become disordered so in denying myself the fruits of the earth I am strengthening my will and reordering my passions so that I can participate in the life of the Trinity (which is grace).
So if you talk about Purgatory in the West, you explain it in the framework based on these Augustinian and Anselmian expressions. It is the purification of the temporal punishment due to sin. In the East you have would call it Final Theosis and you would explain it in the framework of the Eastern fathers. Theosis is a process or a journey through which our humans nature is transformed and we come to share in the divine life of the Trinity. This takes place in this life on earth and for some, after death. But the point is the same as with the Immaculate Conception dogma. It's 2 ways of expressing the same truth and both traditions are essentially saying that there is purification after death. When the Byzantine Catholics came back into union with Rome (the Treaty of Brest), Pope Clement VIII agreed to not discuss the matter of the formulation of Purgatory...it's just too sticky. And it hasn't been touched on formally since.
Regardless of the differences, I love the way Pope John Paul II addresses them in Orientale Lumen, "In the study of revealed truth East and West have used different methods and approaches in understanding and confessing divine things. It is hardly surprising, then, if sometimes one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed them better. In such cases, these various theological formulations are often to be considered complementary rather than conflicting."
If you think of definitions of doctrine as being what Chesterton called negative instead of positive (that is, directing you in what you cannot believe rather than what you have to believe) then communion shouldn't be hindered. It is just a matter of 2 traditions attempting to explain the same Truth in different ways. And no human terminology could actually comprehend the Mystery of Faith.
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Elizabeth
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This has been so, so helpful to me, Katherine. Thank you. You've made things I didn't understand for a long time very easy to understand.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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kjohnson
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All thanks to God. I'm actually surprised that I didn't confuse the matter more.
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ALmom
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I'd like to add that not all rites in union with Rome are ones that split and then re-united. There are Eastern Rites that simply never split and have always co-existed with the Roman rite. I'm not nearly has versed as Katherine - but the Marionite rite does come to mind (familiar to Lebanese Catholics). One of my college friends belonged to this rite. I may be mistaken, but I think they are a long standing rite that never broke. Their Mass is in Aramaic and the priest is married. (He was ordained outside the U.S. and is here serving the Marionite community in the U.S.)
I know I have read somewhere of other Eastern rites that did not break with Rome so this is not the only one. If I come across my source - I'll post it.
Janet
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kjohnson
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You are absolutely right, Janet. The link I posted from Catholic Answers names the 2 rites that have no Orthodox counterparts (they were never not in union with Rome). They are the Maronite Catholic Church and the Italo-Grieco-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church.
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Katherine,
Will you be posting about how to do the great fast for Lent? I came across a reference to it years ago and have always wondered about it.
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Absolutely! Last weekend I posted on the Sunday of Zacchaeus, the first of 5 Sundays preparing for Great Lent. I've already written for the next 4 Sundays and they are scheduled to post. I am also including posts on the fasting practice of the East and the Presanctified Liturgy, Great Canon of St. Andrew and the other liturgical observances during the Great Fast.
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kjohnson wrote:
| Absolutely! Last weekend I posted on the Sunday of Zacchaeus, the first of 5 Sundays preparing for Great Lent. I've already written for the next 4 Sundays and they are scheduled to post. I am also including posts on the fasting practice of the East and the Presanctified Liturgy, Great Canon of St. Andrew and the other liturgical observances during the Great Fast. |
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Katherine, you are a wonder!!!!!
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Mrs.K
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Thank you for so eloquently sharing all of this knowledge. I do hope this is all being done horizontally and without exerting anything more than your fingers. No neck or eye strain allowed! 
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kjohnson
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Mrs.K wrote:
| Thank you for so eloquently sharing all of this knowledge. I do hope this is all being done horizontally and without exerting anything more than your fingers. No neck or eye strain allowed! |
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Yes, I promise. I'm in bed.
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Bookswithtea
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Katherine, this is amazing. I'm going to save your post. I've wondered so many times about purgatory and the immaculate conception in the eastern mindset. And your explanation of sin and judgment really clarified things for me. I've mostly read Frederica's thoughts on this and I personally think the longer she writes, the more hostile she sounds toward western theology.  I've had some difficulty understanding what she is saying because of this.
I love that joke about the lightbulb.
Maybe I missed this, but do you attend a Byzantine Catholic Church or are you attempting to follow the Orthodox calendar within a Latin Rite church?
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Joann in AL
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Thank you, Katherine, for taking time to explain all this! I am sorry that you must be on bedrest, but if this is the fruit, well, Wow!
Joann
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kjohnson
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Frederica is very gifted, but you have to keep in mind that she's a convert and converts tend to identify themselves by what they are not. Not only that, but there is a huge temptation to pride when converting, as if you've figured it all out and these poor souls just don't get it. The better posture to acquire (and I say acquire because only through grace and prayer can we prideful humans get there) is to see where you came from as being a gift that prepared you for your acceptance of a greater truth. Otherwise we fail to be witnesses and we demonstrate that we've run FROM something rather than run TO something.
I'm reading Frederica's book "First Fruits of Prayer" right now and the entire intro is an explanation of Orthodox theology. She spends about half the time describing her beautiful faith and the other half showing how it's not western. The problem I have with this is there really is no reason why you can't explain how 2 traditions are different without tearing one of them down. I've been guilty of this before and it really hurts people.
It's my experience that when you introduce aspects of Orthodoxy to a western Christian, Protestant or Catholic, most of the time they respond by recognizing how it fits into their faith. When my father in law, a staunch Southern Baptist, was here for Christmas he asked me if the Catholic Church still taught Purgatory. I told him yes and explained it using the Eastern terminology. He said, "Oh, that's like in the Bible and the refiner's fire. That makes sense."
But Orthodox apologists do need to realize that Orthodoxy doesn't have the claims to mysticism. I know a very saintly Serbian Orthodox nun who loves the Spanish mystics (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila). I came across a beautiful quote from an Eastern Orthodox priest at St. Vladimir's Seminary (Fr. Lev Gillet):
The whole teaching of the Latin Fathers may be found in the East, just as the whole teaching of the Greek Fathers may be found in the West. Rome has given St. Jerome to Palestine. The East has given Cassian to the West and holds in special veneration that Roman of the Romans, Pope Gregory the Great. St. Basil would have acknowledged St. Benedict of Nursia as his brother and heir. St. Macrina would have found her sister in St Scholastica. St. Alexis the “man of God,” “the poor man under the stairs,” has been succeeded by the wandering beggar, St. Benedict Labre. St. Nicolas would have felt as very near to him the burning charity of St. Francis of Assisi and St. Vincent de Paul. St. Seraphim of Sarov would have seen the desert blooming under Father Charles de Foucauld’s feet, and would have called St. Thérèse of Lisieux “my joy.”
As far as our family goes, when we came back into communion with Rome last May we went to a Latin Rite parish. We tried to do the 50/50 thing, but it's just too hard, so we're 100% of the time in our Byzantine Catholic parish. But that doesn't mean we'll never be in a Latin Rite parish. I'm sure Doug will take the kids there tomorrow since I'm on bedrest and it's much closer. But my dh especially feels that it's important for the kids to experience both and wants them to know that the Catholic Church is very, very big. In the meantime our Byzantine priest is talking to a canonist trying to figure out what our children are canonically speaking. It's a paperwork nightmare.
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Kathryn UK
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I am enjoying this Katherine . Keep typing .
I can identify with being a paperwork nightmare. As a Catholic married to a Jew we have managed to generate a fair paper trail ourselves
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Bookswithtea
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kjohnson wrote:
| The better posture to acquire (and I say acquire because only through grace and prayer can we prideful humans get there) is to see where you came from as being a gift that prepared you for your acceptance of a greater truth. Otherwise we fail to be witnesses and we demonstrate that we've run FROM something rather than run TO something. |
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As a convert from Evangelicalism I know exactly what you are talking about.
kjohnson wrote:
| I'm reading Frederica's book "First Fruits of Prayer" right now and the entire intro is an explanation of Orthodox theology. She spends about half the time describing her beautiful faith and the other half showing how it's not western. The problem I have with this is there really is no reason why you can't explain how 2 traditions are different without tearing one of them down. I've been guilty of this before and it really hurts people. |
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I have this but haven't read it yet. I did get to hear her give a talk on Icons once in San Diego at a Nazarene college, and she signed my copy of The Illumined Heart. She radiates God's peace in person.
kjohnson wrote:
| When my father in law, a staunch Southern Baptist, was here for Christmas he asked me if the Catholic Church still taught Purgatory. I told him yes and explained it using the Eastern terminology. He said, "Oh, that's like in the Bible and the refiner's fire. That makes sense." |
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Love this. I wish I could get that across to my in laws. They are ex Catholic and are convinced they know the faith better than poor deceived dh and I.
kjohnson wrote:
| In the meantime our Byzantine priest is talking to a canonist trying to figure out what our children are canonically speaking. It's a paperwork nightmare. |
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May I ask what the problem is? Seems like it shouldn't be that complicated???
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: How many rites?
